Super Episode 109-110 (8 October 2017)

[Zephyr]

Scattered thoughts:

- The fucking music! The piece that plays when Jiren begins to stare Goku down, the piece that plays when Goku begins fighting him, that mystical piece that plays when the Universe 11 gods are discussing Goku as a 'sacrifice', that horrifying piece that plays when Goku begins to fight in Blue, that piece remixed from the current opening that plays when Goku's gathering genki, and lastly that insert song! Initially I'd thought it might be Kageyama, but although I've been told it isn't, that its reminiscent enough of his style that I could be confused in the first place is some damn high praise.
- Since there was recent confusion regarding what our heroes actually are, after Raditz lands on Earth, this was of particular amusement and note:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
- I liked the sense of scale! All of the other fighters were paying attention while Goku and Jiren were going at it, and the two were flying around past everyone at different parts of the fighting stage.
- Belmod saying "Jiren is a being who will never lose, no matter who he's up against" strikes me as fishy. Like not your cliche blind hype for and faith in someone, but rather more like he was in some way specially tailored to be unbeatable. Adding to that, his (up until and including this point) boringly excessive composure is actually beginning to feel unsettling and creepy. That just might turn out to be the point!
- Nozawa really killed it here. Her adult Goku is still largely high pitched and chipper compared to what many may be used to, and even a bit more than usual in Super, but when Goku pulled himself back up onto the stage and asks Jiren where he's going, with that deep-as-fuck serious voice, was just fucking cool. Also I love it whenever they add that Ozaru roar effect to a yell.
- The Genki Dama part was cool all around. Was interesting to see Movie 7's take on the interaction between Super Saiyan and the Genki Dama given more credence. Freeza contributed to it! This is the kind of shit I've been itching for since Revival of F! Jiren saying he'll wait for the full thing was stone cold badass. Super disappointed we didn't see the Zenos unwittingly donate loads of genki to it with their usual hand raising shtick.
- Beerus caring for, appearing saddened by the apparent demise of, and seemingly being excited for, Goku was a really cool moment for him as a character.
- Ultra Instinct makes for a great payoff to the lessons Whis has been teaching Goku and Vegeta since Revival of F.
- Hit's line about "working" was dope as hell.
- Oh, and the animation was sex from front to back.

[Jigurashi]

The way Tomioka wrote #110 compared to #66 kinda confirms my suspicions that Toei requested he rush things due to the staff they had for #66. This was so much better written, mostly because it didn't feel rushed we as the audience could digest things a lot better and got some much needed exposition and a decent enough explanation to tide us over until we get more later on.

Also I really loved the moment the other universes didn't lose the will to fight, it felt like they were all in solidarity for Goku. Good stuff.

Agreed. Love how they were all about to attack Jiren no matter how fruitless it would have been. I also love Jiren's moment where he closes his eyes at the thought of Goku's apparent death. Beerus' reaction and the Omni Kings both hesitating to eliminate Goku really helped sell the scene.

[kidhero1000]

This is all well and good. But since we basically got Goku vs Superman with this special, when do we start begging Screw Attack to forgive us for giving them shit all these years?

[dbzfan7]

BTW I haven't seen your full episode breakdown either on your thoughts, what you found good, were mixed on, bad, etc.

I usually don't do full episode backgrounds, more snide remarks here and there but I do have some thoughts on the whole package.

PROS:
- The animation, sick as all hell, besides a couple of expected iffy Tate moments everyone was at the very least pretty damn good. Particularly the first fight before the Spirit Bomb, it does a really good job of just visually showcasing how fucked Goku really is no matter what he does.
- The music, Sumitomo's work has been largely forgetable thus far but he pulled out some great new tunes and brought back old ones to great effect. The insert song perfectly fit.
- The new forms explanation exists and it doesn't suck. It's not great but fine is the equivalent to Shakespeare in Super land so I'll take it.
- Goku's new form isn't an end battle one sided curb stomp. He's got much to learn about it and now that he's mostly tired, he has to make due with what power he has left and figure out how to go from here in the 25 minutes left in the tournament. That's great. One of my biggest problems with a lot of form reveals is that the guy with the sparkly new form usually just one sided curb stomps the opposition (fuck Gohan vs Cell).

MIXED:
- Having so much talking during the insert song, cool fight is something that makes sense as the explanation is delivered there but I think they could've cut down on the amount of reaction shots.
- Jiren having no personality. On one hand, it is nice to see a DB fighter who doesn't legitimately dick around but on the other hand, he doesn't have much personality. SS2 Gohan's reveal, as loathe as I'm to admit it, works better because Cell did some really nasty things and left an impression on you. Jiren so far is just really strong, almost like a force of nature but he has nothing memorable to him besides that. I think he should've smashed Kale right out of the tournament instead of simply knocking her down for a bit.

CONS:
- Vegeta's "I'm not gonna help but I'm gonna help anyway!" attitude. Seriously? Could they not simply write him smashing Ribriane's face in THEN giving Goku the Genki afterward? What the fuck was the intent here, exactly?
- The Spirit Bomb not getting more people. Everyone saw Goku get his shit kicked in so I think it would've made perfect sense for all the other universes to join in on the bomb and get rid of Jiren because he's CLEARLY way too much of a threat. Plus, Goku will be really tired afterwards, meaning he'll be easier to beat. Hell, at the very least give Hit and Cabba a shot of giving him power out of respect.
- Ribrianes fight taking so much time. Ribriane, much like almost every DB parody/gag character, doesn't work long term. Her shtick was funny at first but like I said, this series always runs those characters into the ground really quickly. The only big exception is Mister Satan and even he was grating on my nerves well into the Boo arc until his redemption arc with Boo singlehanded saved the character.

Beerus wasn't one sidedly stomped by Super Saiyan God when it was introduced. Technically Freeza stomped SSJ Blue when it was introduced to us, until his stamina gave out. So it's been done before I'd say. It's more of a Z thing where they kick the crap out of the enemy.

The talking really did take me out when the insert was being wasted on their talking.

But Jiren does seem to dick around. He doesn't immediately make Goku pay for feeling him out. He takes the Genki Dama instead of just stopping Goku to not bother with it. He just is more subdued about it. Though he really shoulda knocked Kale out of the ring. Despite all his power he only has 1 elimination to his name I think.

Vegeta's part besides bitch smacking Ribrianne was just awful. Really hated that.

Mentioned that idea when I responded to Doc. At least then it would give a unification feel and make the Genki Dama more belivable....even if it'd still make no sense.

I've grown a hate boner for her since her inception, it's only gotten worse

[Spider-Man]

-Ribrianne in general while i do find her funny as well i like her voice but the constant love stuff got old old real fast as well her ability wasn't that impressive,really dissapointed with her character they better improved her character otherwise she is just a one note parody which i'm not impressed.

This is my View Exactly The Gr, especially being a Comic Fan and Here is a new way to look at Ribrianne as well Spider-Man my friend.

We really are in the Infancy of these Characters Like Jiren, Ribrianne and others like Toppo, Kale, Caulifla as well as others. They will need time to develop and give us more of who they are, likely the rest of THIS ToP arc and the majority of the next one to say the least. But fans need to be willing to take a breath and stop with the few episodes and done ideal and that is it on a character. The Storyteller needs time to tell their story, you can feel the flow of that with how the story is going and by how many of these characters seem to be going, it is going to be much longer then this tournament will give us.

That is the fair and reasonable thing to do, Honor the Storyteller and Give the Time for the Development to happen. One can like characters right away Like I did with Ribrianne and Toppo, but I Hunger for more to be told Greatly indeed and more will be needed.

Yeah I have hope for Ribrianne my friend because she has potential to be interesting along with Jiren And I'm looking forward to see her interaction with Rozie as well Jiren with Toppo and Dyspo.

[CJStriker_CBR]

-Ribrianne in general while i do find her funny as well i like her voice but the constant love stuff got old old real fast as well her ability wasn't that impressive,really dissapointed with her character they better improved her character otherwise she is just a one note parody which i'm not impressed.

This is my View Exactly The Gr, especially being a Comic Fan and Here is a new way to look at Ribrianne as well Spider-Man my friend.

We really are in the Infancy of these Characters Like Jiren, Ribrianne and others like Toppo, Kale, Caulifla as well as others. They will need time to develop and give us more of who they are, likely the rest of THIS ToP arc and the majority of the next one to say the least. But fans need to be willing to take a breath and stop with the few episodes and done ideal and that is it on a character. The Storyteller needs time to tell their story, you can feel the flow of that with how the story is going and by how many of these characters seem to be going, it is going to be much longer then this tournament will give us.

That is the fair and reasonable thing to do, Honor the Storyteller and Give the Time for the Development to happen. One can like characters right away Like I did with Ribrianne and Toppo, but I Hunger for more to be told Greatly indeed and more will be needed.

Yeah I have hope for Ribrianne my friend because she has potential to be interesting along with Jiren And I'm looking forward to see her interaction with Rozie as well Jiren with Toppo and Dyspo.

Indeed that is the best we can have with any story or character development Spider-Man my friend , Hope that we will get as much, not all, but as much as we can with what the Storytellers and Company Give to Us. I learned this lesson LONG ago with how Marvel and Comic books in general writer their characters and universes.

Indeed I am glad to hear you agree Ribrianne and other like Jiren and Toppo have that potential, it will take time and Toei is in the driving seat, it is their the potentials, we just have to wait to see what they decide to do, but by how they have marketed them they seem serious about all of them, that is a good thing to have at the very Least!

[precita]

I don't get it, why didn't Beerus give Goku energy for the Spirit Bomb? Surely with God of Destruction power he would have had a much better chance of beating Jiren with it.

[ekrolo2]

I've grown a hate boner for her since her inception, it's only gotten worse

Is this a Dragon Ball thing? Cause Toriyama is frequently called a gag manga artist and I can't imagine that working if DBs current output of gag characters sets any precedents.

[Kunzait_83]

Loved the reference:

For further elaboration:

As a fascinating sidenote, the most likely mythological source for the commonly depicted imagery of a Xia fighter so fast that their striking limbs are a myriad blur is an extremely important piece of Buddhist lore: the legend of Guanyin and the Thousand Arms.

Guanyin (also known as Avalokitasvara in original Sanskrit) is a deity and Bodhisattva (one who has attained a supreme state of enlightenment, generally through benevolent acts of charity) who is the center of numerous Buddhist myths. One of them being a story where Guanyin, acting out of compassion for the struggling harshness of life for so many, attempts to use her power to free all sentient beings in existence from the continuous, never-ending cycle of reincarnation.

Unable to at once comprehend the minds and wills of so many beings, her head shatters into eleven pieces. Amitabha, a deity known for attaining perfect enlightenment/Buddhahood, helped her by turning the fragmented pieces of her head into eleven separate heads, all capable of hearing and understanding the many cries of the suffering and needy in the world. Attempting to reach out to all of them at once, her arms likewise shatter into countless fragments. Once more, Amitabha aids her by granting her over a thousand arms, all capable of reaching out to and helping those in need or pain.

Statues of a multi-headed and multi-armed Guanyin are objects of great religious and mythological significance in Buddhist iconography, a symbol of not only boundless compassion and selflessness, but also (and more integral to Wuxia) a symbol of dedication, determination, and personal growth/improvement externalized via the image of Guanyin physically transformed by her will to accomplish her goal (an altruistic one of alleviating suffering).



A great deal of Wuxia lore takes ideas, concepts, and iconography from Buddhist and Taoist myths: one of the single-most powerful and famous mythical martial arts techniques in all of Wuxa fiction is of course the Buddha's Palm (or Palm of a Thousand Buddhas), a series of superhumanly fast and powerful palm strikes backed by the complete focus of all of a fighter's ki capable of shattering mountains from thousands of miles away in some stories and that is attainable only to warriors who have achieved a perfect physical and spiritual state of being (akin to Buddhahood or Nirvana for a martial artist).

It is very likely and oft speculated by many Wuxia enthusiasts that the indelible image of an inhumanly fast Wulin martial arts master whose body moves so swift that they appear to have countless limbs all striking at once can trace its artistic/visual roots to statues, sculptures, and other ancient artwork depicting the Buddhist tale of Guanyin and the Thousand Arms.

[Potanical Pardon]

I think Vegeta not donating his energy is totally within character.

It's a combination of things. His pride and both he and Goku with their pure Saiyan blood dislike assistance or not earning their way into something...though they both have at times with great reluctance. Plus, given the nature of the TOP, Vegeta wants to preserve his energy for himself. He was all for the Genkidama with Buu because he knew he had nothing left to offer besides that.

[Saturnine]

Is this based on the manga?

Of course not, it's based on EPs 109 and 110. Why do you care though? The manga isn't the source material here, and the anime isn't an adaptation. It's not like with the DB manga and the anime.

I asked because it was never said Beerus is stronger than any god other than Champa.

Yeah, but Whis said that the god of destruction from the universe with the mortal that a GoD can't defeat is stronger than Beerus. Therefore Belmod > Beerus.

[Saturnine]

To be fair, in this form he probably has. Jiren > Belmod > Beerus. And Goku can go toe to toe with Jiren, who isn't even at full power. This Goku is most def stronger than Beerus.

To be fair, nothing was implied that Belmod is stronger than Beerus nor that Goku had surpassed the latter.

It totally was, Whis said that. I mean that the GoD from the universe with that super strong mortal is stronger than Beerus. Goku is arguable, but Jiren > Belmod > Beerus is as good as confirmed.

[kidhero1000]

I don't get it, why didn't Beerus give Goku energy for the Spirit Bomb? Surely with God of Destruction power he would have had a much better chance of beating Jiren with it.

Tweet this to Toshino if you wanna know.

[lord turbo]

These episodes were interesting, specifically the Belmond, Jiren, and Goku fighting and such. Everything else was classic bad DBZ with useless padding (Goku slowly going through all forms minus SSJ3), multiple drawn out reaction shots, pointless small child level observation exposition from the characters.

Its amazing how Goku keeps running into characters that play to his silly antics, any other character similar to 17 would have oneshotted him in an instant before he could even turn SSJ making the annoying plot armor more noticeable than normal. The bad parts is the literal recycling events of prior arcs, even word for word.

Kuririn was Tien when talking about Goku still still had the KKx20, Beerus stood in for King Kai by mentioning Goku is already using it, followed by th Genki Dama (its odd Kuririn uses the same line from dbz movie 7 about why Goku can't use the Genki Dama as a SSJ even thought that directly ignores the point of FPSSJ from the Cell Saga) being failure followed by the tug of war ripped straight from the Kid Buu fight, complete with Goku gets a new form out of nowhere like SSJ, but wait, there's more, Goku's new form is only temporary and doesn't allow him to beat his opponent even though he keeps evolving through the fight, will he be able to tap into this form again on his own later on...?

Its bad enough its blatant rehash, but its rehash without none of the emotional build up and heart behind it. Nothing to say about Ribrianne other than here being a boring one trick annoying character that refuses to do anything else. All in all I give episode 109-110 a 6 out of 10 rating.

[avasatu]

Bold prediction:

(One of the) Next time(s) Goku taps into Ultra Instinct, it will be powered by his own ki, and will not have the Spirit Bomb aura, but rather the red aura shown on the poster (Mastered Ultra Instinct). He will be packing godly ki in his "base" during this time, and thus will only (learn to) be able to transform into a basic Super Saiyan (like how going SS off of a godly body gives us SSB). This time, though, we will get chocolate Goku, blazing red spiked hair, the true Saiyan God, the much better version of the Rose form (god ki base + SS) combined with Ultra Instinct.

Super Saiyan Mastered Ultra Instinct, hopefully with a spicier name.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Bold prediction:

(One of the) Next time(s) Goku taps into Ultra Instinct, it will be powered by his own ki, and will not have the Spirit Bomb aura, but rather the red aura shown on the poster (Mastered Ultra Instinct). He will be packing godly ki in his "base" during this time, and thus will only (learn to) be able to transform into a basic Super Saiyan (like how going SS off of a godly body gives us SSB). This time, though, we will get chocolate Goku, blazing red spiked hair, the true Saiyan God, the much better version of the Rose form (god ki base + SS) combined with Ultra Instinct.

Super Saiyan Mastered Ultra Instinct, hopefully with a spicier name.

I remember someone on these forums posted a comment saying that the chocolate Goku thing was just SSB Goku with a flipped colour scheme or something else that turned it red. I'm pretty sure that's the explanation for that little thing.

And honestly, I hope the Ultra Instinct state that Goku has displayed thus far is how it remains. It's simple, effective, and conveys the point that this power isn't just a transformation.

[Ranmaru Rei]

Some ppl says this special has some deleted scenes. Does anyone know something about this? What have we missed?

[avasatu]

Bold prediction:

(One of the) Next time(s) Goku taps into Ultra Instinct, it will be powered by his own ki, and will not have the Spirit Bomb aura, but rather the red aura shown on the poster (Mastered Ultra Instinct). He will be packing godly ki in his "base" during this time, and thus will only (learn to) be able to transform into a basic Super Saiyan (like how going SS off of a godly body gives us SSB). This time, though, we will get chocolate Goku, blazing red spiked hair, the true Saiyan God, the much better version of the Rose form (god ki base + SS) combined with Ultra Instinct.

Super Saiyan Mastered Ultra Instinct, hopefully with a spicier name.

I remember someone on these forums posted a comment saying that the chocolate Goku thing was just SSB Goku with a flipped colour scheme or something else that turned it red. I'm pretty sure that's the explanation for that little thing.

And honestly, I hope the Ultra Instinct state that Goku has displayed thus far is how it remains. It's simple, effective, and conveys the point that this power isn't just a transformation.

I saw that too, but it makes no sense to me. How does only half of the picture come under the influence of the color swap, unless somewhat did it deliberately to confuse the fan base? And why shouldn't Goku be able to go SS off of this?

[Xeztin]

This episode was awesome. nuff said. Finally broke away from Super Saiyan! I think Goku will go SSJ in this state which will trigger what everyone thought was SSJ Red a while back that leaked out.

[Kinokima]

Some ppl says this special has some deleted scenes. Does anyone know something about this? What have we missed?

There is an entire minute of the end of 109 cut

More discussion over here. Someone posted the missing stuff on Twitter which I linked to in the thread below and others have translated so you will get the gist of it.


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