How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[Kenji]

Why is taking a near death beating not earning a power up?

"Even if someone manages to defeat the hero, they'll magically return 50x stronger" is simply not a satisfactory journey.
You can justify it using all the semantics you want about the Special Saiyan Biology, at the end of the day, there is absolutely zero story between these two points. Goku got beaten, sat in a tube, came back stronger, that's it.

How exactly is that any different than "Gohan got beaten, sat down for hours, came back stronger"?

[ABED]

Why is taking a near death beating not earning a power up?

"Even if someone manages to defeat the hero, they'll magically return 50x stronger" is simply not a satisfactory journey.
You can justify it using all the semantics you want about the Special Saiyan Biology, at the end of the day, there is absolutely zero story between these two points. Goku got beaten, sat in a tube, came back stronger, that's it.

It's especially egregious given that Goku has gone through different journeys to get stronger before and after this. Magic God Water, Kaioken, the Oozaru transformation, regular training, all of which made him 10x stronger at best, and yet, doing nothing but get beaten was a more effective strategy?

They don't even have to be defeated. They just need to take a life threatening beating. It's also not magic. It's their physiology. When you work out, your muscles break down and build back up. This is a battle shoenen version of that. He sat in a tube after fighting and nearly dying. That's not nothing. You don't buy that aspect of Saiyan biology but will buy being a were-monkey because he sees a full moon?

Magic God water was a journey? He drinks water after Karin brings it from off panel, writhes in pain for a bit and gets stronger. That was literal magic.

We all have our arbitrary line with this stuff, but it's important to understand that it is in fact an arbitrary line about what dopey stuff we buy and what dopey stuff we don't.

[Kenji]

We all have our arbitrary line with this stuff, but it's important to understand that it is in fact an arbitrary line about what dopey stuff we buy and what dopey stuff we don't.

Hence why I said: YMMV on that one.

[BernardoCairo]

How exactly is that any different than "Gohan got beaten, sat down for hours, came back stronger"?

I don't want to be repetitive here but...

The difference is that we see Goku training hard before that. Both in the Saiyajin Arc and before arriving on Namek. Not to mention that the concept of Saiyajins getting stronger through the dangers of battle had already been established in that arc, with Vegeta and Gohan also benefiting from it. Furthermore, Goku was still far behind Freeza. It was only when he changed his mindset that he managed to reverse the situation.
Gohan, on the other hand, simply stood still and became stronger than Boo instantly, after 7 years of doing nothing.

It's not the same.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, the magical power up nonsense is in fact boring and kind of shows that when you restrict what you allow yourself to be as a writer and then also just don't plan out the story, you wind up needing to pull "Uh, they get stronger after a near death beating! Until they just stop doing that For Reasons" out of your ass. It's boring.

[ABED]

I mean, the magical power up nonsense is in fact boring and kind of shows that when you restrict what you allow yourself to be as a writer and then also just don't plan out the story, you wind up needing to pull "Uh, they get stronger after a near death beating! Until they just stop doing that For Reasons" out of your ass. It's boring.

Planning out stories isn't important. It's just one method. it's not like engineering with objective answers.

[Mr Baggins]

Gohan sitting around for his potential unlock is exactly what makes his particular situation work. This is a guy who was repeatedly established to have insane potential since almost his introduction in the manga, so now, because he slacked off, he has to wait an insane amount of time to have it brought out. While all that's happening, he's forced to hear about his friends being in trouble while being able to do jackshit, snaps at one point but perseveres, has his patience and anguish rewarded, then finally steps up of his own volition after 7 years of complacency.

If Cell Gohan was the culmination of his arc, then Buu Gohan is the afterword – the reconciliation of said potential with the things that made it go to waste.

That isn't an undeserved power-up at all; it's a pretty pivotal moment for him that plays into a core trait. So is Goku growing from hardship, though yes, this is all doing very different things with very different characters.

I think the problem is exactly as I've been saying in that a couple of people keep listing off things that happen in the plot without doing much to look at what roles they play in the narrative, or how they affect the characters, then call it "bad writing" because it's not following some rigid formula. Don't let me stop you if that's your jam, but it's such a self-imposing way to digest any story.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, the magical power up nonsense is in fact boring and kind of shows that when you restrict what you allow yourself to be as a writer and then also just don't plan out the story, you wind up needing to pull "Uh, they get stronger after a near death beating! Until they just stop doing that For Reasons" out of your ass. It's boring.

Planning out stories isn't important. It's just one method. it's not like engineering with objective answers.

Having some semblance of what you're going to do is important. I'm not even saying that the granular details need to be followed, but if you're just stumbling around in the dark you're not going to be making anything coherent or meaningful, especially when you're locking yourself into a corner fifteen comic pages at a time.

[Koitsukai]

Gohan also gets that power up after unearthing a legendary sword, buried eons ago, that no god was ever able to, and then unlocks an old god living inside the sword. Very simplistic take so say he only sat down for hours.
Can't even wrap my head around the concept of not having earned a power up after stepping up against stronger foes and taking a fucked up beating. Like ABED said, it's human physiology.

I do wonder who is forcing this show onto people. It has bad writing, a bad writer, a bad MC, bad storytelling, bad tropes, bad characterizations, bad supporting characters, it handles everything badly... there's nothing here to salvage, so why stick around if it sucks so bad?

[Kenji]

Can't even wrap my head around the concept of not having earned a power up after stepping up against stronger foes and taking a fucked up beating. Like ABED said, it's human physiology.

Human physiology doesn't allow you to become dozens of several times stronger after near-death.

There is a stark difference between working out and getting stabbed multiple times, the former is supposed to be a slow, gradual, meticulous process that takes years to complete and if done wrong can damage your body, the latter can either kill you or leave you crippled for life, and irreversibly damage your skin.

A better analogy to working out would be regular-ass training, which I have no problem with.
But the characters getting immediately stronger after near-death is just bullshit the writer made up to close a power gap he didn't know how to close otherwise. None of this is based in reality and it's absurd to insist it is.

I do wonder who is forcing this show onto people. It has bad writing, a bad writer, a bad MC, bad storytelling, bad tropes, bad characterizations, bad supporting characters, it handles everything badly... there's nothing here to salvage, so why stick around if it sucks so bad?

I have praised points of the Cell and Saiyan arcs multiple times in this thread.
Hey, did you know a story can have both good and bad writing at times? Yeah, shocking, I know.
It would be a real shame if this thread was precisely about discussing one of the elements I personally find bad about Dragon Ball.

[JulieYBM]

Gohan also gets that power up after unearthing a legendary sword, buried eons ago, that no god was ever able to, and then unlocks an old god living inside the sword. Very simplistic take so say he only sat down for hours.
Can't even wrap my head around the concept of not having earned a power up after stepping up against stronger foes and taking a fucked up beating. Like ABED said, it's human physiology.

I do wonder who is forcing this show onto people. It has bad writing, a bad writer, a bad MC, bad storytelling, bad tropes, bad characterizations, bad supporting characters, it handles everything badly... there's nothing here to salvage, so why stick around if it sucks so bad?

Dragon Ball is bad and we should all build time machines out of DeLoreans and go back in time and destroy it, to be honest.

We, as a community, glaze Dragon Ball often enough that I don't really see an issue with being critical of big story structure issues that are typically just taken at face value because they've been that way for 30+ years.

But also, we should all build DeLoreans capable of traveling back in time to stop Dragon Ball from existing.

[jjgp1112]

I never had any problem with the Mystic Power-up because it was such a funny parody of the Dragon Ball's arc structure since Tao Pai Pai. Elder Kai talking a big game about "surpassing your limits" and Goku and Gohan just being like "....that's not all that special" And then just dropping all pretense of training and just making a guy stronger because an Old Man did the conga.

I mean, the magical power up nonsense is in fact boring and kind of shows that when you restrict what you allow yourself to be as a writer and then also just don't plan out the story, you wind up needing to pull "Uh, they get stronger after a near death beating! Until they just stop doing that For Reasons" out of your ass. It's boring.

Planning out stories isn't important. It's just one method. it's not like engineering with objective answers.

Honestly all you need with a story is a specific scenario you want to write out and then just asking and answering "Why?" over and over again. Like yeah planning's nice, but it's nothing to get married to and when you get into a certain state of actually writing things and fleshing shit out, the story just starts writing itself and plans go out the window. If you're enjoying what you write it starts coming down to "What do I want to see happen next?" You become the author and the audience

[Yellow Flower King]

Can't even wrap my head around the concept of not having earned a power up after stepping up against stronger foes and taking a fucked up beating. Like ABED said, it's human physiology.

Human physiology doesn't allow you to become dozens of several times stronger after near-death.

There is a stark difference between working out and getting stabbed multiple times, the former is supposed to be a slow, gradual, meticulous process that takes years to complete and if done wrong can damage your body, the latter can either kill you or leave you crippled for life, and irreversibly damage your skin.

A better analogy to working out would be regular-ass training, which I have no problem with.
But the characters getting immediately stronger after near-death is just bullshit the writer made up to close a power gap he didn't know how to close otherwise. None of this is based in reality and it's absurd to insist it is.

I do wonder who is forcing this show onto people. It has bad writing, a bad writer, a bad MC, bad storytelling, bad tropes, bad characterizations, bad supporting characters, it handles everything badly... there's nothing here to salvage, so why stick around if it sucks so bad?

I have praised points of the Cell and Saiyan arcs multiple times in this thread.
Hey, did you know a story can have both good and bad writing at times? Yeah, shocking, I know.
It would be a real shame if this thread was precisely about discussing one of the elements I personally find bad about Dragon Ball.

I normally hate relying on other people's logic and opinions but this is exactly what I want to say right now.

What’s your point? The Dragon Balls shouldn’t be in Dragon Ball because they’re not real?

Ki blasts aren’t real either!

King Furry isn’t real!

Saiyans aren’t real!

Hoi Poi Capsules aren’t real!

All that noise about how overusing the Dragon Balls is dangerous? That’s not real either!

It’s a fantasy story! The whole point is that there are ways to do miraculous things that wouldn’t be possible in real life.

This right here is the big sin committed by Dragon Ball GT. It took a big, rich fantasy world, and started arbitrarily forbidding cool stuff for no reason. Dragon Balls? “Those are bad, m'kay?” Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3? “Oh, we have to nerf those to the point where they barely matter.” Gotenks? “No, we can’t have that!” Pan and Bulla win some fights? “That’s crazy talk, everyone knows girls can’t do anything!”

And for what? Realism? There’s an episode where Goku breathes underwater, for cripes’ sake!

[BernardoCairo]

I think I may have said this before, but Dragon Ball is actually a very impressive story when you take everything into account. Toriyama had a highly unorthodox approach to writing, yet the narrative still flows remarkably well. If you start from chapter one and follow the story through the Boo arc, you find a journey for Goku that, while not perfect, remains coherent and consistently engaging. Many of the arcs connect in natural and satisfying ways. Toriyama was clearly very skilled at improvisation, which helps explain why he enjoyed surprising himself as he wrote.

To be clear, I have nothing against Ultimate Gohan per se. I think he looks cool, and the awakening of that form was played in a genuinely funny way.
That said, it is difficult to compare it to Goku’s journey. Goku pushed himself relentlessly, training even in the afterlife, nearly dying in his fight against Vegeta, and then continuing to train in space under extreme gravity. He was defeated again and still remained far behind Freeza, to the point where he was essentially prey, struggling just to survive.
When Super Saiyajin finally appears, it comes after two arcs of buildup, alongside Goku’s gradual acceptance of his Saiyajin heritage and a shift in his mentality.

[Kenji]

I normally hate relying on other people's logic and opinions but this is exactly what I want to say right now.

What’s your point? The Dragon Balls shouldn’t be in Dragon Ball because they’re not real?
Ki blasts aren’t real either!
King Furry isn’t real!
Saiyans aren’t real!
Hoi Poi Capsules aren’t real!
All that noise about how overusing the Dragon Balls is dangerous? That’s not real either!
It’s a fantasy story! The whole point is that there are ways to do miraculous things that wouldn’t be possible in real life.

I am not against cool things happening if the end message is worth it. Just like several people in this thread have said already, everything in storytelling is a tool to tell a story. The problem is: The Boo arc was telling a story about the new generation taking things over, then threw that away in the dumpster for some last-minute bullshit about humanity having to fix their shit that came out of nowhere. So yes, I would've preferred if Gohan and the new generation stayed the focus, because not doing so ruined the entire story for me.

My point goes back to what people where arguing before: That they think Gohan beating Boo after sitting on his ass for hours and doing nothing would feel unearned, so they're glad Gohan's story got co-opted by Goku and Vegeta again in the end. To which I counterargue: Goku and Vegeta had several unearned power-ups throughout Dragon Ball's history, some of which people are wrapping their heads around trying to justify right now.

This right here is the big sin committed by Dragon Ball GT. It took a big, rich fantasy world, and started arbitrarily forbidding cool stuff for no reason. Dragon Balls? “Those are bad, m'kay?” Super Saiyan 1, 2, and 3? “Oh, we have to nerf those to the point where they barely matter.” Gotenks? “No, we can’t have that!” Pan and Bulla win some fights? “That’s crazy talk, everyone knows girls can’t do anything!”

And for what? Realism? There’s an episode where Goku breathes underwater, for cripes’ sake!

Now that you mention GT, I do have to wonder: If the writer by any particular reason was named Akira Toriyama, would people in this thread still be trying to find ways to twist its horrendous writing and bullshit ass-pulls into some ingenious, brilliant technique of storytelling that's based on real-life aspects? There's a reason why I pointed out the Videl and GT Trunks examples in contrast to similar things that happen in Z.

[MasenkoHA]

My point goes back to what people where arguing before: That they think Gohan beating Boo after sitting on his ass for hours and doing nothing would feel unearned, so they're glad Gohan's story got co-opted by Goku and Vegeta again in the end. To which I counterargue: Goku and Vegeta had several unearned power-ups throughout Dragon Ball's history, some of which people are wrapping their heads around trying to justify right now.

There’s Vegeta’s Saiyan Near Death Power Up Boost that culminated in him eventually getting his ass kicked and humiliated by Freeza and Goku’s Super God Water which I think everyone agrees was pretty cheap as far as the manga is concerned but even then Goku is immediately humbled by Mr.Popo and goes back to actual training to prepare for the new Piccolo.

As always fans oversell how prevalent these power hands out actually are. They’re proven to either not be the answer or that it’s not the end all be all and stronger opponents are still out there better continue training


But something something it’s not fair that Yamcha and Tenshinhan don’t have Saiyan genetics. Dragon Ball bad

[Kenji]

But something something it’s not fair that Yamcha and Tenshinhan don’t have Saiyan genetics. Dragon Ball bad

Disingenuous argument is disingenuous. Do you have anything to say about the actual things I was pointing out or what?
But yes, Dragon Ball bad, at least as far as the Boo arc is concerned. I'm glad we agree on something.

[WittyUsername]

“Saiyans get stronger after they get beaten up” is nothing more than a narrative shortcut. Your mileage may vary on whether it qualifies as an “earned” power up, but I don’t consider it any different from Goku drinking some convenient magic water to get stronger. Personally, I think it also further goes against the idea that anyone can get strong if they work hard enough, because the Earthlings obviously don’t have that sort of biological advantage.

[Desassina]

Writing a coherent and cohesive story takes a lot of time and effort, specially for an artist who just wanted to get his character designs out on print, so it's natural that he resorted to the same plot mechanisms, and with editors putting a bound on his creativity, he just repeated what was successful while it worked.

[BernardoCairo]

My point goes back to what people where arguing before: That they think Gohan beating Boo after sitting on his ass for hours and doing nothing would feel unearned, so they're glad Gohan's story got co-opted by Goku and Vegeta again in the end. To which I counterargue: Goku and Vegeta had several unearned power-ups throughout Dragon Ball's history, some of which people are wrapping their heads around trying to justify right now.

I came out and gave you several reasons why the specific example you used is weak, so I wouldn’t say I’m "wrapping my head around trying to justify it now"...

Now that you mention GT, I do have to wonder: If the writer by any particular reason was named Akira Toriyama, would people in this thread still be trying to find ways to twist its horrendous writing and bullshit ass-pulls into some ingenious

I do think so, yes. Some people on this forum have a tendency to go very easy on GT just because it wasn’t written by Toriyama, despite its weak story and poor pacing compared to the original. Maybe it’s nostalgia, I don’t know. Case in point, no story is perfect.