Unpopular DB opinions

[ABED]

I don't see how. It's no worse than the kooky logic of Buu's various forms.

Buu changes forms mostly based on absorptions. Of course there's Kid Buu at the end that makes no sense (should've been Evil Buu), as well as Fat Boo looking the same after spitting out all the remaining evil. But he's still 10 times more conistient than Goku in DB who's a kid in normal form, a kid in SSJ1-3, and adult in SSJ4 and Gogeta, doesn't revert back to adult after achieving 'adulthood' in SSJ4. It's a mess with zero logic, not just errors.

I don't know how you would quantify Buu's illogical forms, or say that Buu was a matter of errors. It's all a matter of little logic, at least the wish has the advantage of being magic.

[Basaku]

I don't know how you would quantify Buu's illogical forms, or say that Buu was a matter of errors. It's all a matter of little logic, at least the wish has the advantage of being magic.

Magic that sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, nobody knows.

[ABED]

I don't know how you would quantify Buu's illogical forms, or say that Buu was a matter of errors. It's all a matter of little logic, at least the wish has the advantage of being magic.

Magic that sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, nobody knows.

How is that worse than 5-4=2 (I'm using a math analogy to make the point about Buu's transformations)?

[Basaku]

I don't know how you would quantify Buu's illogical forms, or say that Buu was a matter of errors. It's all a matter of little logic, at least the wish has the advantage of being magic.

Magic that sometimes works, sometimes doesn't, nobody knows.

How is that worse than 5-4=2 (I'm using a math analogy to make the point about Buu's transformations)?

Cause at least he still transforms after removal of obsorbed fighters and considering how many forms he had, a screw up may be forgiven. Meanwhile, GT team had 1 simple job - decide whether the wish will be broken by SSJ4 form or not. And they "let's do both at the same time haha!"

[ABED]

Cause at least he still transforms after removal of obsorbed fighters and considering how many forms he had, a screw up may be forgiven. Meanwhile, GT team had 1 simple job - decide whether the wish will be broken by SSJ4 form or not. And they "let's do both at the same time haha!"

That's not a screw up, it's a huge gaping plot hole.

That's not at the same time, it's Goku becoming an adult when he transforms, and then reverting when he goes back to normal. I can't imagine being anymore bothered by this than him getting clothes after the transformation.

[Basaku]

I can't imagine being anymore bothered by this than him getting clothes after the transformation.

Clothes are in no way whatsoever relevant to the plot, unlike Boo's forms or Pilaf's wish. Nor do they influence much (if at all) the perception of a character.

Why exactly you're defending it so much? Because of the original Dragon Ball? It was great, but it evolved. Trying desperately to suddenly bring it back again is not a good choice at all. Bringing back some elements (like increased humor in Buu arc) may work, you can even make a new child character that will basically be the old Goku, going into galaxy search for DBs can be good if done well, but the beginning of GT didn't try to gruadually incorporate some old ideas the production team though were worthy of being brought back to the franchise's spotlight. They threw it all in at the same time practically trying to remake the original Dragon Ball. No way this could be pulled off without feeling absolutely jarring as a follow-up to DBZ.

[ABED]

I can't imagine being anymore bothered by this than him getting clothes after the transformation.

Clothes are in no way whatsoever relevant to the plot, unlike Boo's forms or Pilaf's wish. Nor do they influence much (if at all) the perception of a character.

Why exactly you're defending it so much? Because of the original Dragon Ball? It was great, but it evolved. Trying desperately to suddenly bring it back again is not a good choice at all. Bringing back some elements (like increased humor in Buu arc) may work, you can even make a new child character that will basically be the old Goku, going into galaxy search for DBs can be good if done well, but the beginning of GT didn't try to gruadually incorporate some old ideas the production team though were worthy of being brought back to the franchise's spotlight. They threw it all in at the same time practically trying to remake the original Dragon Ball. No way this could be pulled off without feeling absolutely jarring as a follow-up to DBZ.

I don't think it's the huge deal you're making it out to be; DB didn't evolve past the idea of using a gag for something important. The humor in the Buu arc didn't work. It hurt that arc because it undercut the villain, at least here it's simply a McGuffin. It does feel jarring, but so does the Buu arc.

I don't to see Goku lite, I want to see Goku. If he's a kid, it's not the best idea, but it's hardly the worst. It doesn't take them long to branch out from the homage to where DB began.

[Basaku]

I don't think it's the huge deal you're making it out to be; DB didn't evolve past the idea of using a gag for something important. The humor in the Buu arc didn't work. It hurt that arc because it undercut the villain, at least here it's simply a McGuffin. It does feel jarring, but so does the Buu arc.

I don't to see Goku lite, I want to see Goku. If he's a kid, it's not the best idea, but it's hardly the worst. It doesn't take them long to branch out from the homage to where DB began.

Except that Buu has 1 element 'brought back' - humor and obviously it's debatable whether it hurt it or not. But you can't compare it to the beginning of GT which doesn't just bring 1 element back (for better or worse result), it tried to bring it all, at once. Feels at least 100 times more jarring than Buu arc, even Saiyaman part.

[ABED]

I don't think it's the huge deal you're making it out to be; DB didn't evolve past the idea of using a gag for something important. The humor in the Buu arc didn't work. It hurt that arc because it undercut the villain, at least here it's simply a McGuffin. It does feel jarring, but so does the Buu arc.

I don't to see Goku lite, I want to see Goku. If he's a kid, it's not the best idea, but it's hardly the worst. It doesn't take them long to branch out from the homage to where DB began.

Except that Buu has 1 element 'brought back' - humor and obviously it's debatable whether it hurt it or not. But you can't compare it to the beginning of GT which doesn't just bring 1 element back (for better or worse result), it tried to bring it all, at once. Feels at least 100 times more jarring than Buu arc, even Saiyaman part.

So? It's jarring, I'm not sure what the issue is. It doesn't take getting used to, they are all familiar elements, and Buu is undercut by the humor. The entire fight against Gotenks is a lark.

[baneofdemon22]

I agree with you TheGmGoken and am glad to see that you enjoy the Cell arc a lot more. Although, I'm different than you, in that I like every arc better than the last, except the Boo arc. I didn't enjoy much post Vegeta's suicide, except for scenes with Goten and Trunks (Not Gotenks), and Gohan inflicting pain on Boo. I was so over Boo that I wished Gohan would have killed him right there. I did not find Boo interesting and it made it even worse when he'd fall asleep in the middle of a fight, drink a milkshake, or whatever. I really enjoyed the epilogue, especially seeing Goku spend time with Pan, and "He's Always Late," is my favorite stand alone episode.

So I rank them:
Cell
Freeza
Saiyan
Boo

[Basaku]

So? It's jarring, I'm not sure what the issue is. It doesn't take getting used to, they are all familiar elements, and Buu is undercut by the humor. The entire fight against Gotenks is a lark.

It's not a separate entity, it's put within the context of DBZ follow up and with it's 180 change it will feel jarring regardless of familiar elements. It took time evolving from early DB episodes to Frieza fight, if it was done in back-to-back episodes it would feel jarring as well, regardless of the fact that it should feel familiar because fighting was already part of early DB episodes.

No issue, just responding to you arguing my points. Unpopular opinions thread sounds like a good place for these kind of debates

[ABED]

I agree a lot, but if Gohan had killed Cell, we wouldn't have gotten Vegeta finally admitting that Goku is number one.

Basaku, it's not a 180. The most jarring thing is the character designs, the jump forward in time, and the music. Starting off with what seems like it will be a nice adventure is a nice way to begin a new series, and then increase the pace and introduce the big bad.

[Basaku]

I agree a lot, but if Gohan had killed Cell, we wouldn't have gotten Vegeta finally admitting that Goku is number one.

Basaku, it's not a 180. The most jarring thing is the character designs, the jump forward in time, and the music. Starting off with what seems like it will be a nice adventure is a nice way to begin a new series, and then increase the pace and introduce the big bad.

I hate Goten and Vegeta's new designs (I can't believe Toriyama's responsible for them ) but they're barely even secondary characters in the first act of DB, so their redesign is not that significant as other things present in this part. Music is too subjective thing, don't hate it, don't love it, though I do like the opening a lot. Jump forward - been done multiple times in the series, though I do have a problem with it happening so fast after the previous one in EOZ. And I don't disagree that starting with a nice adventure is a good way to begin the new chapter, but it was executed horribly and did not feel genuine at all atop of so many other aspects all trying to create basically a remake of the original DB.

[ABED]

I wasn't passing judgment on the music, I'm merely saying it's VERY different from Kikuchi's score.
The jump forward had been done before, but I'm not talking in isolation. It's a confluence of a lot of different things. Vegeta has a new design, Goten is now an adult, Pan is grown up, etc.

but it was executed horribly and did not feel genuine at all atop of so many other aspects all trying to create basically a remake of the original DB.

It's not a remake or even kind of a remake, it's a throwback. I wasn't argue that it's well done. It's not the best, but still enjoyable.

[Basaku]

It's not a remake or even kind of a remake, it's a throwback. I wasn't argue that it's well done. It's not the best, but still enjoyable.

If you can shut-off about 350+ previous episodes from your mind while watching the beginning of GT. Throwback/homage ain't always-worthy by definition, it should make sense and take the context into consideration, which is not the case here. And even if you look at it as a separate thing, the quality of it as as stand-alone arc/episodes is very debatable.

[ABED]

It's not a remake or even kind of a remake, it's a throwback. I wasn't argue that it's well done. It's not the best, but still enjoyable.

If you can shut-off about 350+ previous episodes from your mind while watching the beginning of GT. Throwback/homage ain't always-worthy by definition, it should make sense and take the context into consideration, which is not the case here. And even if you look at it as a separate thing, the quality of it as as stand-alone arc/episodes is very debatable.

Even with all of DB and DBZ, GT is enjoyable. Flawed, but enjoyable. What context are you referring to?

[Basaku]

What context are you referring to?

The tone, style, cast and Goku of the 350+ episodes directly proceeding it obviously.

[baneofdemon22]

@ABED I think you meant Boo, right? That's true. Vegeta admitting Goku was no. 1 was important for his development. They should have just had an eating contest or something. Or just thrown in some random villain really quick. Kidding, of course!

[Flame Dragon]

The problem with the first episodes of GT, is that they are not good even on their own.
Even without comparing to the first Dragon Ball, they are still shit.

They suck, nothing more nothing less.
My first time viewing GT i was bored out of my mind before getting to the Baby Saga.

Nothing interesting happens, everything is blatantly forced to replicate the original Dragon Ball, nothing feels natural.
The Para Para Brothers gag for example, probably one of the worst things i've ever seen on anime.

When i first saw it, i was genuinely EMBARASSED at how stupidly and forced it was trying to get a laugh out of you.
It was not funny, yet Toei kept showing it down our throats, kinda like Jar Jar Binks if you think about it.

Each episode with their self contained nature felt just pointless. And since the gags were not good, it truly was a waste of time.
And don't get me started on how annoying Pan was as a character, and how freaking lame Trunks became.

You can literally cut every episode in between Goku departure to Space and Dr.Myuu and Baby appearance and you lose nothing of value, story wise or character development wise (maybe backward development if you like Kid Goku in GT, which i hate).
It's the worst type of filler. Filler inside of filler.

Yo dawg i herd u liek filler so i put filler in your filler so you can be twice as bored to death.

[ABED]

At what point did people stop enjoying self contained episodes? I'm not talking about DB, but in general. At some point it went from stand alones being the norm, "oh, this is kinda neat, it's all connected" to "FUCK, it's a stand alone!" They aren't even standalone episodes in the strictest sense, they are part of a quest to find the Dragon Balls.

GT has a lot of faults, but I like the humor, the new worlds, Giru, and yes, even Pan. The thing I didn't like is the fights, and I wish the other characters had played a more integral part in the last arc.

The tone, style, cast and Goku of the 350+ episodes directly proceeding it obviously.

Goku's not a different character, his body just changes.