Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Not gonna comment on the Daiz PL since they don't make sense but I will say this:

- Where are the two power ups Freeza did on hes second form?
- Why do you have SSJ Vegeta that more powerful than Goku in the Android saga? Piccolo said that Vegeta might have surpassed him, might.
- Wheres Semi Cell's power up?
- Super Vegeta > Initial PC?
- I think the gap between Vegeta and the juniors is a bit high.
- Goten and Trunks should be a lot closer to Gohan.
- Yakon should be a tad stronger, Gohan thought Goku might be in danger fighting alone.
- Kibito is too close to Gohan, he couldn't even lift the Z sword.
- Gotenks weaker than Piccolo?
- Evil Buu that far from Kid Buu? I really want to hear why.

[dbzfan7]

Mine is also on page 149, if you wanna look...

But then, like most people around here, I go with official information, so maybe that won't tickle your fancy.

148. I tried to make the Boo saga increases a little bigger for seven years. I then tried to scale accordingly. I still stand by Toriyamas recent BOG statements of near perfect strength by the Boo saga. Everything before Trunks' arrival is the same.

Hmmm... how strong do you have everyone in the EoZ? Considering they're stronger in BoG, I think that maybe having base Goku at 100 million leaves things too cramped for him to get decent improvement and still be not match for Freeza.

It seems like you just changed the Cell Games numbers. Which ones were changed in the Buu Saga?

On the Cell Games: I think Goku should be nerfed slightly. I think him being more than 90% of Cell is too much; he seemed like he was at a big disadvantage. I also don't think that the Cell that fought Goku should be equal to SS Gohan; Gohan was unimpressed by the power Cell displayed there, and Cell had to power up just to hit Gohan. Gohan also floored Cell before the power up when he actually tried to retaliate.

Maybe an error: you have Initial Perfect Cell stronger than Grade III Trunks when the opposite was stated.

I think SS2 Goku should either be only 9 billion or Gohan at the Cell Games should be higher. Piccolo had trouble telling the difference between Majin Vegeta's ki and kid Gohan's ki; SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta shouldn't be gods to Cell and Gohan.

Another nitpick: I think the difference between Kaioshin and Piccolo is too small. Piccolo thought it was pointless to even try to fight him and said that they were dimensions apart. I think even I have the gap between them too small at the moment...

I raised Gohan and kept Goku where he was so Gohan would be unimpressed. I lowered Perfect Cell vs Trunks. I'm thinking about Kaioshin.

Not gonna comment on the Daiz PL since they don't make sense but I will say this:

- Where are the two power ups Freeza did on hes second form?
2 power ups?
- Why do you have SSJ Vegeta that more powerful than Goku in the Android saga? Piccolo said that Vegeta might have surpassed him, might.
Piccolo says the samething about the SSJ2's and they were somewhat stronger than Gohan, It's likely Vegeta has a pretty good advantage
- Wheres Semi Cell's power up?
He powers up?
- Super Vegeta > Initial PC?
That is what 16 states, I wrote rising next to it as he slowly increases his power.
- I think the gap between Vegeta and the juniors is a bit high.
I'm sure the juniors can beat him easier if they went for the kill right away. Cell says enough playing around and that only Vegeta and Trunks can hold on for now.
- Goten and Trunks should be a lot closer to Gohan.
I don't think so.
- Yakon should be a tad stronger, Gohan thought Goku might be in danger fighting alone.
I'll increase Yakon then
- Kibito is too close to Gohan, he couldn't even lift the Z sword.
Kibito was stated in the Daiz to be able to give Gohan a good fight if he doesn't go SSJ
- Gotenks weaker than Piccolo?
Possible set up gag from that one scene that made Gotenks in base look stronger (also to not bloat powers more than already), debating on it.
- Evil Buu that far from Kid Buu? I really want to hear why.
Random and I believe Evil Boo has most of the power Super Boo has as everytime Boo gets angry his power sky rockets. He can fill you in better than me.

[RandomGuy96]

I think you and Zombie have different definitions of who "Initial" Perfect Cell is. You're referring to the suppressed Cell that 16 said was still inferior to Vegeta, right?

On Kibito: he can give Gohan a fight. That doesn't mean he isn't still much physically weaker, especially considering his physiology compared to Gohan's and how ki works. And lifting feats are NEVER a good indication of power, otherwise Trunks would be comparable to Ginyu Saga Goku.

Semi-Cell does power up, but for all we know he could have beaten up 16, suppressed himself to fly around, and then powered back up to his maximum. And I can't seem to find a quote indicating his strength increased after he powered up, even though I do remember Vegeta saying it did.

But just because it looks like someone powered up doesn't mean their power level actually rose. Remember Vegeta and Nappa "powering up"? This was at a time where they explicitly couldn't change their power levels.

I also notice you don't actually have a level for the Initial Perfect Cell that tanked Vegeta's kick and was said by Vegeta to be beatable by his post second ROSAT strength?

[dbzfan7]

I think you and Zombie have different definitions of who "Initial" Perfect Cell is. You're referring to the suppressed Cell that 16 said was still inferior to Vegeta, right?

On Kibito: he can give Gohan a fight. That doesn't mean he isn't still much physically weaker, especially considering his physiology compared to Gohan's and how ki works. And lifting feats are NEVER a good indication of power, otherwise Trunks would be comparable to Ginyu Saga Goku.

Yes. Initial Perfect Cell showed weaker ki than Super Vegeta until he slowly brought out more and more and overwhelmed Vegeta.

Where was the power up. I'd like to see it.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't have a scan, but it's when Vegeta was beating Cell up. Cell says it's time to get serious, powers up, and punches Vegeta, but Vegeta pseudo-tanks the punch.

[dbzfan7]

I don't have a scan, but it's when Vegeta was beating Cell up. Cell says it's time to get serious, powers up, and punches Vegeta, but Vegeta pseudo-tanks the punch.

I just saw it in the herms checker. But what do I put initial Semi Cell at then

Chapter: 378 (DBZ 184), P11.2, P11.4
Context: After Cell unleashes his full power
Vegeta: “Oh, your battle power really flew up there…But so what?”
Trunks: “…This is father’s victory.”

[RandomGuy96]

That's rather troublesome for me, as having Cell tank a punch and THEN power up would make him too high relative to where I want to have everyone else. I'm just going with "he demolished 16, stopped putting out full power cause it was unnecessary, and powered up when Vegeta fought him".

[Kamiccolo9]

I like the "Vegeta's being a sarcastic asshole, and Cell didn't power up all that much" theory.

[dbzfan7]

That's rather troublesome for me, as having Cell tank a punch and THEN power up would make him too high relative to where I want to have everyone else. I'm just going with "he demolished 16, stopped putting out full power, and powered up when Vegeta fought him".

I put a level, but it feels way to low to be the initial form. That or Vegeta seemed to be belittling him so maybe it wasn't too big as he scoffed at Cells level.

[RandomGuy96]

I think either way you have Semi-Perfect Cell far too low. He tanked 16's punch in a Broly-esque way. The gap between him and 16 should be absolutely massive compared to even the gap between him and Vegeta.

[dbzfan7]

I think either way you have Semi-Perfect Cell far too low. He tanked 16's punch in a Broly-esque way. The gap between him and 16 should be absolutely massive compared to even the gap between him and Vegeta.

So should I lower 16 or what.

[ZombieVito]

- Kibito can't pick up something that Gohan can, hes weaker. I seriously don't get why the Daiz said he could give Gohan a fight, the guy has literally no feats at all.

- Goten and Trunks are very close to Gohan, it's very clear when they train for the budokai.

- Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Dende and Piccolo can feel ki, don't you think anyone of them would have said that Gotenks is weaker than Piccolo when he rushed to fight Fat Buu?

Freeza powers up twice, here:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 5&page=126

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 5&page=127

and here:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... +26&page=3

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... +26&page=4

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... +26&page=7

Now Semi Cell:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 32&page=64

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 32&page=65

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 32&page=68

[RandomGuy96]

I think either way you have Semi-Perfect Cell far too low. He tanked 16's punch in a Broly-esque way. The gap between him and 16 should be absolutely massive compared to even the gap between him and Vegeta.

So should I lower 16 or what.

Most likely. As I said I think you scaled the android arc too high with having the androids over 500 million.

- Kibito can't pick up something that Gohan can, hes weaker. I seriously don't get why the Daiz said he could give Gohan a fight, the guy has literally no feats at all.

The Daizenshuu didn't say he wasn't a lot weaker. It said he was strong enough to give him a fight. You also gotta remember that ki doesn't always work like that; for example, Kibito could be much physically weaker than Gohan, but he could also be, say, much faster.

Part of the point of the Daizenshuu is to shed light where the manga was silent or only lightly implied something. A databook approved by Toriyama, that was specifically called accurate and well put together by the man himself, said he was strong enough to give Gohan a fight (which still implies he's weaker). I highly doubt that Toriyama considered the information in the Daizenshuu to be inaccurate to the story he wrote.

Also, remember: lifting feats suck at determining strength. Trunks couldn't even lift x150 his own body weight. Hell, straight feats suck for this anyway. Tao is apparently faster than Buu Saga Gohan.

[ZombieVito]

I think either way you have Semi-Perfect Cell far too low. He tanked 16's punch in a Broly-esque way. The gap between him and 16 should be absolutely massive compared to even the gap between him and Vegeta.

So should I lower 16 or what.

Most likely. As I said I think you scaled the android arc too high with having the androids over 500 million.

Yep, I have 17 at 400 mil. You have to scale back everyone in the Android arc to make the Cell one work.

[dbzfan7]

- Kibito can't pick up something that Gohan can, hes weaker. I seriously don't get why the Daiz said he could give Gohan a fight, the guy has literally no feats at all.

- Goten and Trunks are very close to Gohan, it's very clear when they train for the budokai.

- Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Dende and Piccolo can feel ki, don't you think anyone of them would have said that Gotenks is weaker than Piccolo when he rushed to fight Fat Buu?

Freeza powers up twice, here:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 5&page=126

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 5&page=127

and here:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... +26&page=3

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... +26&page=4

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... +26&page=7

Now Semi Cell:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 32&page=64

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 32&page=65

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 32&page=68

Lifting strength isn't a good indicator. Look at the different gravity trainings and how Trunks wouldn't be special as he had a hard time with just 150.

Random will tell you why we can't take everything seriously with the Gag and true feats

Herms notes only one increase in Freeza's second form. Piccolo only mentions the transformation increase and not a power up. Not too much though just an increase as said by the others on the only one.

I added a Semi Perfect Cell one with Vegeta belittling him I think he was sarcastic on his increase

I'll lower the Cyborgs.

[Kaboom]

Whatever Gotenks' base form's power is, it's meaningless. It was never expected to do anything and never did. There's no reason for it to be compared, for better or worse, to Piccolo or anyone else (besides Boo, which it was).

As for Kibito, technically the guidebook entry says that his "battle power" is what's enough to be a challenge to Gohan, and "battle power" means ki. My suggested solution is that he's just somewhat lacking in physical strength compared to a Saiyan.

[ZombieVito]

Guess we will not see eye to eye on this, anyway:

Herms notes only one increase in Freeza's second form. Not too much though just an increase.

Really? I need to see this.

[RandomGuy96]

Didn't Freeza go from losing to Piccolo to beating him up after the power up? Implies a decent increase.

[dbzfan7]

Guess we will not see eye to eye on this, anyway:

Herms notes only one increase in Freeza's second form. Not too much though just an increase.

Really? I need to see this.

Piccolo quotes only one power up. He only had the first feeling of Freeza's first form. So it's likely he commented on that.

This is the other one

Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…”

It just says he is getting stronger. Not a gigantic jump just stronger.

no one mentiones he powered up again once against Piccolo. Freeza then mentions he has two more forms he can use.

[ZombieVito]

Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P7.4
Context: after Freeza beats up on Piccolo
Kuririn: “Wh-what…He wasn’t [fighting] seriously before…”

Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P9.2
Vegeta: “H-his power is bottomless…Did I really intend to fight with that kind of monster?...”

This screams power up.