Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Nevaeh]

Speaking of UI. Where does it stack up in the manga?

In the anime it was stated to be a realm of power the hakaishin can't reach. Although since said statement came from Shueisha it should apply to the manga as well should it not?

[ankokudaishogun]

Speaking of UI. Where does it stack up in the manga?

In the anime it was stated to be a realm of power the hakaishin can't reach. Although since said statement came from Shueisha it should apply to the manga as well should it not?

Not "cannot reach" but "it's hard to reach".
It fits with Beerus not being able to use it for long.

In the manga everything suggests it "only" a technique, it doesn't rises the user's general power-level but focuses his power in the openings and blind spots where the opponent's defense is weaker
Against opponents of a comparable level, it's a great improvement in EFFECTIVENESS.

[Hugo Boss]

Moro absorbs energy, which raises his own battle power.

And lowers the battle power of his foes. So, how exactly the superior battle power of the Saiyans guarantee their win? Moro obviously has a gimmick that makes him better than any battle power related fighter.

NLF. put him up against someone who moves and punches hundreds of times faster and harder than him. not only have time to react even to his death.

This has been a problem in this forum since the beginning. you guys fall to much into the NLF arguments. it was made more apparent with UI and it seems that it will happen with moro until he inevitably goes down using pure power only.

I don’t understand what you are saying. What is NLF?

[Alruneia]

I don’t understand what you are saying. What is NLF?

NLF is referring to "No Limits Fallacy", I believe. It's not the most well-defined term, but basically, assuming that an ability/effect/attack will always work just because it hasn't been shown to fail yet is a no limits fallacy. Essentially, an NLF is just someone going a bit too far when they're extrapolating from incomplete data. (It's also a heavily misused term.)

[ZombieVito]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

Exactly as strong as SSB, but without any of the strain of that level of power due to being base form.

Easy, simple, and fits the story where Gogeta and Broly are equal in equivalent forms until he goes SSB, at which point he's superior.

[ZombieVito]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

Exactly as strong as SSB, but without any of the strain of that level of power due to being base form.

Easy, simple, and fits the story where Gogeta and Broly are equal in equivalent forms until he goes SSB, at which point he's superior.

So how does that work with Boo arc Vegetto? Getting god ki made the fusion somehow stronger later on?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

Exactly as strong as SSB, but without any of the strain of that level of power due to being base form.

Easy, simple, and fits the story where Gogeta and Broly are equal in equivalent forms until he goes SSB, at which point he's superior.

So how does that work with Boo arc Vegetto? Getting god ki made the fusion somehow stronger later on?

Well yeah. Back then, the strongest either fusee could achieve was SS3. But now, their collective limit is SSB. The stronger and more potential the fusees can draw from, the stronger their resultant Fusion; that's just natural.

The 2 of them might also be more compatible individuals. They're exactly equal to one another in terms of power and complementary temperament, are rivals but in a healthy manner, and have a shared drive to push each other to new heights. Back then, it made them as strong as Majin Buu in base form, and now it makes them equal to their god-forms.

Granted, they're also way WAY stronger in base form as it is already which also helps.

[p-hyvo]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

Stronger than ssb, exactly at x2 ssb

[ZombieVito]

Exactly as strong as SSB, but without any of the strain of that level of power due to being base form.

Easy, simple, and fits the story where Gogeta and Broly are equal in equivalent forms until he goes SSB, at which point he's superior.

So how does that work with Boo arc Vegetto? Getting god ki made the fusion somehow stronger later on?

Well yeah. Back then, the strongest either fusee could achieve was SS3. But now, their collective limit is SSB. The stronger and more potential the fusees can draw from, the stronger their resultant Fusion; that's just natural.

The 2 of them might also be more compatible individuals. They're exactly equal to one another in terms of power and complementary temperament, are rivals but in a healthy manner, and have a shared drive to push each other to new heights. Back then, it made them as strong as Majin Buu in base form, and now it makes them equal to their god-forms.

Granted, they're also way WAY stronger in base form as it is already which also helps.

But Vegetto was said to be stronger than SS3 in base. Wouldn't that make Vegetto/Gogeta in Super stronger than Blue in base as well? Since Blue is their strongerst form atm.

[Miracles]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

It's hard to tell. In the recent Broly movie...Base Gogeta and Blue Goku were doing almost the same thing against SSJ Broly.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

It's hard to tell. In the recent Broly movie...Base Gogeta and Blue Goku were doing almost the same thing against SSJ Broly.

And SS Gogeta and Broly were trading blows and displays of power quite evenly. When these 2 clashed in their Super Saiyan forms, their clashes were even, it's just that Broly wasn't as adept at landing hits as Gogeta was.

I'd say it's pretty easy to place Gogeta in his base and Super Saiyan forms as equal to Broly's own equivalents, Ikari and Ikari Super Saiyan.

[Grand Marshal 1]

Let's be real. Dodging blasts ≠ power

What does that mean for me at least? That Blue Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Base Gogeta. Granted, as SS the two might not have had a big gap in power, but no matter what Gogeta threw at Broly, he tanked it. He didn't get overwhelmed like when Gogeta was in Blue. He even delivered punches. Gogeta mostly dodged than taking head on.

Not trying to start a long debate on how it is or how it is supposed to be (pure speculation from all of us anyway), but for me Fusions cannot be as strong as Blue, transform into Blue and be relevant in the power scale. Nope. You can't convince me that Gogeta in Blue is tens of thousands of times stronger than Blue Goku and Vegeta, when a 20× on top of Blue is regarded as a very high boost (the Kaio Ken).

By this logic, Gogeta would mop the floor with Jiren, Broly, the 12 GoDs and fusions like Kefla and Zamasu and wouldn't sweat. Vastly surpassing Ultra Instinct.

But the narrative and what we have seen indicate that Blue Fusions are somewhere near MUI (I say the enraged boost included). And that's not thousands of times stronger than Blue.

Now onto pure headcanon. It would make sense for me if Blue Fusions are on the MUI level. Namely, 150×Blue. Broly at FPSS with all his power-ups is at 30×Blue, same as GoD Toppo, but always the winner in their hypothetical match up. 5 times is a gap enough to obliterate someone many times over and Gogeta did that. But it also makes sense for him going Blue, because of he used God he would end up as strong as Broly, trying to turn the table in a fight of equals. That's due to God Gogeta being 150×SSG, which nicely translates into 30×Blue (for me Blue=5×God).

Subsequently, SS Gogeta should be around 150 times stronger than a Super Saiyan, however the problem is that it's a level way below SS Broly. Even if we use the same Base power for Broly and Gogeta, in low SS3, it's still not enough. In the end, I don't know how much effort is put into making Dragon Ball consistent, but my point is that there is no perfect solution. Something will contradict everything we state.

Not saying to stop debating or anything lmao.

[Miracles]

So where do you all have base Gogeta/Vegetto in power? Stronger than Blue? In between God and Blue?

It's hard to tell. In the recent Broly movie...Base Gogeta and Blue Goku were doing almost the same thing against SSJ Broly.

And SS Gogeta and Broly were trading blows and displays of power quite evenly. When these 2 clashed in their Super Saiyan forms, their clashes were even, it's just that Broly wasn't as adept at landing hits as Gogeta was.

I'd say it's pretty easy to place Gogeta in his base and Super Saiyan forms as equal to Broly's own equivalents, Ikari and Ikari Super Saiyan.

SSJ Gogeta is without a doubt stronger than Blue Goku. However, it is up in the air whether Gogeta's base is stronger than Blue Goku. They both dodged and smacked away energy from SSJ Broly.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It's hard to tell. In the recent Broly movie...Base Gogeta and Blue Goku were doing almost the same thing against SSJ Broly.

And SS Gogeta and Broly were trading blows and displays of power quite evenly. When these 2 clashed in their Super Saiyan forms, their clashes were even, it's just that Broly wasn't as adept at landing hits as Gogeta was.

I'd say it's pretty easy to place Gogeta in his base and Super Saiyan forms as equal to Broly's own equivalents, Ikari and Ikari Super Saiyan.

SSJ Gogeta is without a doubt stronger than Blue Goku. However, it is up in the air whether Gogeta's base is stronger than Blue Goku. They both dodged and smacked away energy from SSJ Broly.

That's why I propose that base Gogeta is exactly as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta. Short, sweet, works out well. Making general equivalences tends to make things simple enough. It means Ikari Super Saiyan Broly gets 50 times stronger than Ikari Broly which is 50 times stronger than SSB, just like Gogeta going from base to Super Saiyan.

[ZombieVito]

And SS Gogeta and Broly were trading blows and displays of power quite evenly. When these 2 clashed in their Super Saiyan forms, their clashes were even, it's just that Broly wasn't as adept at landing hits as Gogeta was.

I'd say it's pretty easy to place Gogeta in his base and Super Saiyan forms as equal to Broly's own equivalents, Ikari and Ikari Super Saiyan.

SSJ Gogeta is without a doubt stronger than Blue Goku. However, it is up in the air whether Gogeta's base is stronger than Blue Goku. They both dodged and smacked away energy from SSJ Broly.

That's why I propose that base Gogeta is exactly as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta. Short, sweet, works out well. Making general equivalences tends to make things simple enough. It means Ikari Super Saiyan Broly gets 50 times stronger than Ikari Broly which is 50 times stronger than SSB, just like Gogeta going from base to Super Saiyan.

But then why did base Vegetto > SS3 Goku back in the Boo arc? By your theory they should be equal.

[p-hyvo]

SSJ Gogeta is without a doubt stronger than Blue Goku. However, it is up in the air whether Gogeta's base is stronger than Blue Goku. They both dodged and smacked away energy from SSJ Broly.

That's why I propose that base Gogeta is exactly as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta. Short, sweet, works out well. Making general equivalences tends to make things simple enough. It means Ikari Super Saiyan Broly gets 50 times stronger than Ikari Broly which is 50 times stronger than SSB, just like Gogeta going from base to Super Saiyan.

But then why did base Vegetto > SS3 Goku back in the Boo arc? By your theory they should be equal.

Imo the thing Is simple : fusion doesnt have any fixed multiplier, fusion Is thought Just to be stronger than the weakest fusee top mastered form in base.
Base gotenks in z was stronger than ssj goten, Gogeta and vegetto were stronger than ssj2 Vegeta (and, at least vegetto, even of ssj3 Goku), in gt base Gogeta was no doubt stronger than ssj2 Vegeta as well (Vegeta never mastered ssj4) and, in dbs, both vegetto and Gogeta are stronger than ssb in base.

Thinking about the fusion with a fixed multiplier Is confusing, dragon ball Is highly insonsistent of you try ti see It that way, really

[Hugo Boss]

But then why did base Vegetto > SS3 Goku back in the Boo arc? By your theory they should be equal.

Apparently there is a breakpoint in which Goku and Vegeta can surpass SSGod when they fuse and this breakpoint may have been reached after they trained with Whis. So, while their fusion perhaps wasn’t as strong as SSGod, after strengthening the bases, it could become that powerful in the Broli fight.

[Koitsukai]

I'd say base Gogeta at best equals SSB Goku. He never proved to be stronger or more agile, for that matter, nor weaker of course. He would've showed up as SS if he was vastly weaker than Blue, and would've at least tried to deal some damage in base if he was stronger.

[ZombieVito]

But then why did base Vegetto > SS3 Goku back in the Boo arc? By your theory they should be equal.

Apparently there is a breakpoint in which Goku and Vegeta can surpass SSGod when they fuse and this breakpoint may have been reached after they trained with Whis. So, while their fusion perhaps wasn’t as strong as SSGod, after strengthening the bases, it could become that powerful in the Broli fight.

I guess you are right. They did talk in the manga about strengthening the fusion in the Boo arc so I guess it is possible to increase it's boost.