Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #2 Thread: "Super Hero"

[TheSaiyanGod]

The anime made it fairly obvious that the Ultimate State is something Gohan accesses, not just a permanent power-up, and is independent of his ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. Multiple times afterwards, characters remark that Gohan could just use Super Saiyan, but he chooses not to in favour of either staying in his base form or going into his Ultimate-empowered base form.

And if the movie follows the anime in that regard, there's really no issue. It's a matter of Gohan deciding to turn Super Saiyan to amp up without going full-power until necessary, just like how Goku and Vegeta did against Broly by ramping up through their forms as Broly adapted to their previous forms' power.

I just don't think it makes sense for Gohan to use his Super Saiyan forms once he has access to the Ultimate state. There isn't anything stating that Gohan can no longer turn into Super Saiyan, but at the same time every canonical media we know of have Gohan no longer using SSj for combat as long as he has access to Ultimate. Original manga, DBS manga and DBS anime (in which Gohan exclusively uses Base and Ultimate during the ToP, and states to Goku that he won't use Super Saiyan because he's looking for a different method than his dad, a "never seen before" form). So Gohan using it in the new movie means he either lost it again due to lack of training or they just ignored all this

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The anime made it fairly obvious that the Ultimate State is something Gohan accesses, not just a permanent power-up, and is independent of his ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. Multiple times afterwards, characters remark that Gohan could just use Super Saiyan, but he chooses not to in favour of either staying in his base form or going into his Ultimate-empowered base form.

And if the movie follows the anime in that regard, there's really no issue. It's a matter of Gohan deciding to turn Super Saiyan to amp up without going full-power until necessary, just like how Goku and Vegeta did against Broly by ramping up through their forms as Broly adapted to their previous forms' power.

I just don't think it makes sense for Gohan to use his Super Saiyan forms once he has access to the Ultimate state. There isn't anything stating that Gohan can no longer turn into Super Saiyan, but at the same time every canonical media we know of have Gohan no longer using SSj for combat as long as he has access to Ultimate. Original manga, DBS manga and DBS anime (in which Gohan exclusively uses Base and Ultimate during the ToP, and states to Goku that he won't use Super Saiyan because he's looking for a different method than his dad, a "never seen before" form). So Gohan using it in the new movie means he either lost it again due to lack of training or they just ignored all this

There are all manner of in-universe reasons we could come up with, but I think it's as simple as the Doylist reasoning being them following the Broly movie route of having Gohan cycle through his forms to show his progression of power into his Ultimate State, rather than any real Watsonian logic.

If this is the case, then at least it's not contradicting anything either anyways since, at least by the original manga and the DBS anime, Gohan could always turn Super Saiyan if he wanted to.

[Koitsukai]

There are so many reasons they can come up with to justify Gohan using SS while having his potential unlocked.

Pan might like it, she might think of him as a super hero like the Golden Warrior (Gureto Saiyaman's stories could come into play). It could be that Gohan actually gets a sharper ultimate form if he goes SS first, it could be part of his training, it could be that he needs to use it because his base form isn't enough and his ultimate form is overkill and he is not trying to kill anybody. Or, like in the Broly movie, Gohan for some reason is showcasing everything he can do.

They can always retcon ultimate as they did with SSB, the form that could outlast Golden Freeza then was shit if used too much, and introduce a Complete Ultimate form. Although, if this were the case, I'd rather have Gohan lose it and regain it, AGAIN.

I dunno, we know nothing about the form, and Toriyama only had it for like 2 chapters before other people had their take on it. Excuses there are plenty, to explain SS in the movie, Gohan losing it isn't the only explanation possible.

[TheSaiyanGod]

If this is the case, then at least it's not contradicting anything either anyways since, at least by the original manga and the DBS anime, Gohan could always turn Super Saiyan if he wanted to.

Just for the record (since I'm seeing people saying this and I don't quite agree), it was never said that Gohan couldn't transform into Super Saiyan again in the Super manga. He just said that he chose not to do it (and instead focusing on his Ultimate state), which is pretty much the intention of the anime dialogue when he said the he would not turn into Super Saiyan against Goku because he was looking for another path different from his dad. The meaning is the same.

But yeah there's nothing preventing him from using it (it just doesn't make sense for me, and Gohan not using SSJ once he obtains Ultimate is actually kind of consistent among different media, surprisingly)

[ZombieVito]

I still don't know why folks around here are getting the impression that Gohan "lost" Ultimate simply because he's using Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.

The anime made it fairly obvious that the Ultimate State is something Gohan accesses, not just a permanent power-up, and is independent of his ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. Multiple times afterwards, characters remark that Gohan could just use Super Saiyan, but he chooses not to in favour of either staying in his base form or going into his Ultimate-empowered base form.

And if the movie follows the anime in that regard, there's really no issue. It's a matter of Gohan deciding to turn Super Saiyan to amp up without going full-power until necessary, just like how Goku and Vegeta did against Broly by ramping up through their forms as Broly adapted to their previous forms' power.

Look how quick everyone wants to disregard the manga it’s not getting ignored.

The bios already do.

[Mr Baggins]

Just for the record (since I'm seeing people saying this and I don't quite agree), it was never said that Gohan couldn't transform into Super Saiyan again in the Super manga.

This. Ultimate Gohan is just Gohan with his full potential unlocked.

I think what's causing all this confusion is that the anime clearly treats Ultimate as a form that can be switched on and off -- during the Tournament of Power, he gets the Boo arc bang while using it. In the original manga and Super manga, his base appearance is permanently altered after unleashing his potential (at least until he gets rusty and loses it).

It's perfectly reasonable to think the movie will follow the latter route, especially if the script is predominantly Toriyama. Notice that his pre-Ultimate eyes lack the full outline.

It's also possible that the former route will be followed because it's a Toei production. We'll see.

[Skar]

This might be the first time Toriyama wrote something specific for Gohan since RoF. Gohan role and characters he fought varied in both versions of the ToP so for all we know Toriyama's outline might've only said "Gohan is on the team and trained with Piccolo". Maybe he slacked off again and only able to go SSJ1 like in RoF then regains Ultimate by the end of Super Hero when Piccolo gains his new form.

[KentMan]

I still don't know why folks around here are getting the impression that Gohan "lost" Ultimate simply because he's using Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2.

The anime made it fairly obvious that the Ultimate State is something Gohan accesses, not just a permanent power-up, and is independent of his ability to transform into a Super Saiyan. Multiple times afterwards, characters remark that Gohan could just use Super Saiyan, but he chooses not to in favour of either staying in his base form or going into his Ultimate-empowered base form.

And if the movie follows the anime in that regard, there's really no issue. It's a matter of Gohan deciding to turn Super Saiyan to amp up without going full-power until necessary, just like how Goku and Vegeta did against Broly by ramping up through their forms as Broly adapted to their previous forms' power.

Look how quick everyone wants to disregard the manga it’s not getting ignored.

The bios already do.

They don’t cause they don’t match the anime especially Jiren if you had read what I posted earlier you would know

[KentMan]

Cmon guys the bios I showed were never telling you that the manga is non canon. I should have know that some here would be mistaken or lie about it.

[Grimlock]

And because the only ones that can say what's canonical and what's not is Shueisha and Toriyama, something they have never done. Why people quickly turn everything into a moronic canon debate that doesn't even exist in this franchise is beyond any sane person's comprehension.

[mute_proxy]

They don’t cause they don’t match the anime especially Jiren if you had read what I posted earlier you would know

The bio says he battled Jiren and Broly (which he did) and that he's still improving (which he is). That's all. I'm not sure what secret meaning you see in the bio, but it's not there.

The manga isn't referenced because they don't jump between mediums expecting people to know everything going on in the franchise. Doesn't mean it'll contradict it, it just won't reference it's events.

[KentMan]

They don’t cause they don’t match the anime especially Jiren if you had read what I posted earlier you would know

The bio says he battled Jiren and Broly (which he did) and that he's still improving (which he is). That's all. I'm not sure what secret meaning you see in the bio, but it's not there.

The manga isn't referenced because they don't jump between mediums expecting people to know everything going on in the franchise. Doesn't mean it'll contradict it, it just won't reference it's events.

It means it fits the manga more Toyotaro has always stayed closer to Toriyama outlines more than Toei ever has. The bio not referencing Moro or Moro 73 means he never compared to Jiren and Broly. And Granolah is a big spoiler for all we know. He could himself die or something worse happens to him.

[mute_proxy]

It means it fits the manga more Toyotaro has always stayed closer to Toriyama outlines more than Toei ever has. The bio not referencing Moro or Moro 73 means he never compared to Jiren and Broly. And Granolah is a big spoiler for all we know. He could himself die or something worse happens to him.

It fits both. Goku fought Jiren and Broly in both mediums. That's it.

The bio not referencing Moro and Moro 73 means they're not referencing events not adapted in animation, not to confuse people that consume DB only through animation. A huge chunk of the world doesn't read the manga or has access to it. Denying clarity for the sake of a reference not everyone will understand is not a good idea.

[KentMan]

It fits both. Goku fought Jiren and Broly in both mediums. That's it.

The bio not referencing Moro and Moro 73 means they're not referencing events not adapted in animation, not to confuse people that consume DB only through animation. A huge chunk of the world doesn't read the manga or has access to it. Denying clarity for the sake of a reference not everyone will understand is not a good idea.

That’s just your wishful assumption that others made incorrectly since the Broly movie. The Bio fits more with the manga than anime. No way would Jiren be in it unless you know that in the manga Jiren beat Goku UI without using his super full power or whatever they call it. By the time he uses it against Vegeta and Goku it wasn’t at its max but he still couldn’t be beaten. Only push off the platform by the combined efforts of U7. Goku and Vegeta agree they couldn’t put a dent in him.

Akira Toriyama had approved a lot of things like UE that Toyotaro made so he’s not gonna ignore it.

[mute_proxy]

That’s just your wishful assumption that others made incorrectly since the Broly movie. The Bio fits more with the manga than anime. No way would Jiren be in it unless you know that in the manga Jiren beat Goku UI without using his super full power or whatever they call it. By the time he uses it against Vegeta and Goku it wasn’t at its max but he still couldn’t be beaten. Only push off the platform by the combined efforts of U7. Goku and Vegeta agree they couldn’t put a dent in him.

Akira Toriyama had approved a lot of things like UE that Toyotaro made so he’s not gonna ignore it.

Made what incorrectly? No one is talking about who beat who or who's stronger. The bio only says that they fought, not who won, not who was at full power, not who was stronger than who. It only says that they fought, which they did.

It doesn't matter what was approved in the manga, if the story of the movie doesn't require those ideas implemented, they won't be. If the story revolves mainly around Gohan and Piccolo, we might not see Vegeta's or Goku's latest achievements (nor them going all out), because the story won't need us to. We might not even see UI. If you call that "ignoring", so be it.

We didn't see perfected SSBlue, Ultra Instinct or SSBlue evolution in DBS Broly either, even though they were in the manga and "approved". If the story doesn't need it, if Toriyama doesn't want it, it won't be in it.

Also the previous point: not jumping between mediums for lack of confusion.

[KentMan]

Made what incorrectly? No one is talking about who beat who or who's stronger. The bio only says that they fought, not who won, not who was at full power, not who was stronger than who. It only says that they fought, which they did.

It doesn't matter what was approved in the manga, if the story of the movie doesn't require those ideas implemented, they won't be. If the story revolves mainly around Gohan and Piccolo, we might not see Vegeta's or Goku's latest achievements (nor them going all out), because the story won't need us to. We might not even see UI. If you call that "ignoring", so be it.

We didn't see perfected SSBlue, Ultra Instinct or SSBlue evolution in DBS Broly either, even though they were in the manga and "approved". If the story doesn't need it, if Toriyama doesn't want it, it won't be in it.

Also the previous point: not jumping between mediums for lack of confusion.

It says he’s still improving or growing after his battles with Jiren and Broly. That really says a lot about these two one of whom could not be beaten by UI Goku. And yes the bio is hinting that Goku still sees those two as guys he wants to fight again. But it also raises up questions about Moro 73 being weaker than Jiren and Broly.

It ain’t being ignored that was approved by Toriyama not rejected the anime and even the Broly movie have used what Toyotaro created and helped with. We still haven’t seen the movie so it’s too soon to tell anything that doesn’t mean past manga arcs will be shoved aside.

We don’t see SSB kaioken Frieza doesn’t know fusion but we do see Vegata use SSG something he never did in the anime. The anime had Goku use SSG and SSB the same way that Vegeta used against Goku Black. Yeah Toyotaro manga is not being ignored like some want.

No one is confused or gonna be confused

[Lukmendes]

The previous villains being shown in Broly might've been added by Toei to recap the series for the casual audience. Even if Toriyama wrote the script, I don't think he outlined every single frame of the film including the frame showing some ToP contestants. I recall the only event they referenced between RoF and Broly was the ToP which was probably to explain why Freeza was alive again for the audience that only watches the films.

I don't think the movie itself even explains how Freeza got resurrected.

The last two pages of this thread may contain the most pedantic series of posts I've seen in this forum's history, the above quotes are just highlights, nothing personal guys.

I was hoping for some further analysis and discussion of the trailer... but this level of nitpicking is just a bit weird...

As far as I'm concerned Dragon Ball simply has three continuities now: movies, manga and TV anime series.

Really? 'Cause I've seen longer discussions about shit like power levels here lol.

Frieza doesn’t know fusion what’s so ever and Vegeta was using SSG something the anime never had him do. Him not using kaioken or the kaioken like technique doesn’t mean anything since it exists in both Anime and Manga but they ain’t the same. When I posted that bio I wasn’t debating about canon but alas I should have known better that you guys would start arguing and claiming which is canon.

Blue is just Super Saiyan stacked on top of SSG, that's explained quite clearly back in RoF, that means Vegeta could've used SSG all along and just chose not to for some reason.

I just don't think it makes sense for Gohan to use his Super Saiyan forms once he has access to the Ultimate state. There isn't anything stating that Gohan can no longer turn into Super Saiyan, but at the same time every canonical media we know of have Gohan no longer using SSj for combat as long as he has access to Ultimate. Original manga, DBS manga and DBS anime (in which Gohan exclusively uses Base and Ultimate during the ToP, and states to Goku that he won't use Super Saiyan because he's looking for a different method than his dad, a "never seen before" form). So Gohan using it in the new movie means he either lost it again due to lack of training or they just ignored all this

In Boo saga itself it can be seen that Gohan can't use SS anymore, since the way he powered up was, by old Kaioshin's suggestion, to go super saiyan (Or power up like he's going SS), and he did, but didn't transform.

It seems to be one of those things that got retconned away, RoF movie had in the script that Goku and Vegeta are using SSG's power in base form (Something the manga heavily implies), and I think interviews had Toriyama saying Goku wouldn't use SS anymore (Really not sure about that one), but now SSG is a transformation he can use again.

[ZombieVito]

They don’t cause they don’t match the anime especially Jiren if you had read what I posted earlier you would know

The bio says he battled Jiren and Broly (which he did) and that he's still improving (which he is). That's all. I'm not sure what secret meaning you see in the bio, but it's not there.

The manga isn't referenced because they don't jump between mediums expecting people to know everything going on in the franchise. Doesn't mean it'll contradict it, it just won't reference it's events.

It means it fits the manga more Toyotaro has always stayed closer to Toriyama outlines more than Toei ever has. The bio not referencing Moro or Moro 73 means he never compared to Jiren and Broly. And Granolah is a big spoiler for all we know. He could himself die or something worse happens to him.

But Goku said Moro was the strongest he's faced so he's stronger than Jiren and yet he's not mentioned in the bio.

[KentMan]

Blue is just Super Saiyan stacked on top of SSG, that's explained quite clearly back in RoF, that means Vegeta could've used SSG all along and just chose not to for some reason.

He only decides to do it in Broly? Toriyama writing it in the movie clearly shows how much of Toyotaro he puts into them. I remember on this site there was a interview that was done by Tori and Toyo where Toriyama was glad they were using Toyotaro manga as a reference. And that should keep them on track.

But Goku said Moro was the strongest he's faced so he's stronger than Jiren and yet he's not mentioned in the bio.

He said he’s the tougher which was actually debated on what that means

[Skar]

I don't think the movie itself even explains how Freeza got resurrected.

I think Vegeta mentioned it after Goku was remembering the ToP. If someone only watches the films, they would know some tournament took place between RoF and Broly and Freeza helped his universe win which is how he was resurrected.