The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

That shouldn't be possible at all. Had Shin been CG Goku level, Pocus and Yakon would be on Perfect Cell's league, but only Dabra was compared to Cell.

I forgot to mention, that you're implying that Dabura isn't even Super Perfect Cell level. Goku states that Dabura is at least Cell Level (He generalizes the idea):



Goku implies he's "a lot" stronger than before when Dabura uses Magic (Although it might he the part about "Magic" which made Goku deduce his superiority to what he originally thought, while in sheer strength, Dabura is Super Perfect Cell Level exactly, besides his hax):



El Manga Legendario generalized the entire case and states that Dabura is equal to Cell:



Dabura was beating Ssj2 Gohan without going all-out

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I'm not sure about that. Goku was strong enough to actually push Cell and Toriyama admitted if it wasn't for the plot whole he made, then Goku would of flat out beat Cell since he blew his head off with his regen core. Ssj Goku did better than ssj Gohan against Cell as well. You are also speculating Piccolo's strength. Technically there is no proof he even surpassed imperfect Cell post absorption.

I know this has been debated earlier on, but I'll expand on it

Goku tells that the "certain fighter" which is later revealed as Gohan, is even stronger than himself:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Gohan reveals his superiority when Goku asks him whether it was hard to follow up with Goku and Cell. It's even confirmed that Gohan thought both are holding back, given his idea that his father is supposed to be above Gohan, which he then later is answered that Goku wasn't in fact holding back:

[spoiler]









[/spoiler]

This is further proven by King Kai that Gohan might have surpassed even Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Cell agrees with half of what Goku said, which is Gohan Being Stronger than him, Except for the part about Gohan being above Cell:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Cell got a senzu bean, and based on the fact that he has Saiyan Cells, it's possible he got a zenkai which wasn't mentioned but can be used as an Implification. Gohan managed to go Against him well until Cell decided to increase his speed. Cell does it with ease, which proves that Cell was nowhere near serious Agaisnt Goku based on the context. He keeps getting more power and speed to beat up Gohan, to the point where it's confirmed later on that Cell was nowhere near full power Agaisnt Neither Goku nor MSsj Gohan:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

El Manga Legendario Guide also states this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Spanish Text:

"De niño, Gohan luchó contra Cell con una fuerza superior la de su padre"

English Text:

"As a child, Gohan fought Cell with a strength superior to that of his father"

It's an established fact that Gohan back then was superior to Goku

[Noah]

New match:

- Hakaishin Toppo vs. UI Goku (vs. Kefla)

snip

Or maybe could imply that Trunks wasn't expecting for Gohan to be so soft as an adult (specifically speaking about his appearance and physique), remember that Trunks compared him to his future counterpart that we all know no matter how rusty Gohan was, he still was above that level.

He got pissed more like a proud dad wanting his son to win a competion in fair conditions, but Trunks did the same after and won, I don't see the big deal about it.

You're referring to Trunks against Mecha Freeza? You mean that he already surpassed Freeza on his introduction? Implying that Yardrat Goku got 40x stronger than he was on Namek? Sorry, but I won't comment that

I don't see how a Kiai proves that Base Trunks is stronger than Imperfect Cell, it's a move he wasn't expecting so suddenly, also Cell didn't admitted his inferiority, but saw that Trunks was not the same one he expected to be according to his data. Also if Trunks was that strong yet, a single punch would be enough to kill Cell, but that wasn't the case.

She could pretty much be analysing his moves as noticing how he moves weirdly during the fight, don't see the problem with her enjoying it, she wasn't serious during her fight with Vegeta either.

Well, good for you and your big numbers if you don't care about messed up battle powers then. Toriyama saying that he imagined 10x boost for SSJ don't deny the fact that 50x is on Daizenshuu an official guide that he signed it. So according to that I don't also don't buy that Base Saiyans surpassed Semi Perfect Cell in the same arc he was introduced, sorry.

No, you're the only seeing this contradiction as nothing implies that Gohan has gone back to his former early Boo arc self just because he has to turn SSJ again, he could still be pretty strong at Base, not as he was when 'Ultimate' and only with SSJ that he can release a portion of that power.

But, anyway we're going on circles here... As much as I love to discuss about something, we're just going to keep repeating the same arguments over and over again. You think Base Saiyans > not just Freeza, but Semi Perfect Cell, that's fine, though I think it's absurd.

You can still reply me if you want, but I do not intend to further derail this thread anymore.

[dragon boss z]

Goku tells that the "certain fighter" which is later revealed as Gohan, is even stronger than himself:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Goku meant Gohan with an anger boost. I showed the scans where he stated this earlier.

Gohan reveals his superiority when Goku asks him whether it was hard to follow up with Goku and Cell. It's even confirmed that Gohan thought both are holding back, given his idea that his father is supposed to be above Gohan, which he then later is answered that Goku wasn't in fact holding back:

[spoiler]









[/spoiler]

The problem with that is that Gohan expected his dad to be much stronger than himself. So of course if his dad was fighting even close to his level he would of thought he was holding back. In Gohan's mind Gohan<<<Goku, but he thought Goku was holding back because it was really Gohan<=>Goku

This is further proven by King Kai that Gohan might have surpassed even Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The fact King Kai wasn't sure means they are at least close.

Cell agrees with half of what Goku said, which is Gohan Being Stronger than him, Except for the part about Gohan being above Cell:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

He said there was some truth to that, and even after saying that he later on said that he wanted to fight Goku again. So clearly Cell still thought Goku was a better challenge.

Cell got a senzu bean, and based on the fact that he has Saiyan Cells, it's possible he got a zenkai which wasn't mentioned but can be used as an Implification. Gohan managed to go Against him well until Cell decided to increase his speed. Cell does it with ease, which proves that Cell was nowhere near serious Agaisnt Goku based on the context. He keeps getting more power and speed to beat up Gohan, to the point where it's confirmed later on that Cell was nowhere near full power Agaisnt Neither Goku nor MSsj Gohan:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

There is no proof Cell wasn't using that speed on Goku. Again, even after increasing his speed and attacking Goku he asks for Goku to eat a senzu and fight Goku again. That means even post speed up Cell thought Goku was the better challenge.

El Manga Legendario Guide also states this:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Spanish Text:

"De niño, Gohan luchó contra Cell con una fuerza superior la de su padre"

English Text:

"As a child, Gohan fought Cell with a strength superior to that of his father"

It's an established fact that Gohan back then was superior to Goku

That line is talking about ssj2 most likely.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

You can still reply me if you want, but I do not intend to further derail this thread anymore.

I was writting my response, but that's better for both sides, i guess. It's getting kind of exhaustive, plus i don't think neither of us may change each other's opinions here.

But just an addendum:

You're referring to Trunks against Mecha Freeza? You mean that he already surpassed Freeza on his introduction? Implying that Yardrat Goku got 40x stronger than he was on Namek? Sorry, but I won't comment that

I don't think Trunks could've beaten Freeza in base, i was talking about how he took Freeza suppressed and off guard. I mean, Base Trunks > Freeza by this point is fucking insane.

That shouldn't be possible at all. Had Shin been CG Goku level, Pocus and Yakon would be on Perfect Cell's league, but only Dabra was compared to Cell.

I forgot to mention, that you're implying that Dabura isn't even Super Perfect Cell level. Goku states that Dabura is at least Cell Level (He generalizes the idea):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku implies he's "a lot" stronger than before when Dabura uses Magic (Although it might he the part about "Magic" which made Goku deduce his superiority to what he originally thought, while in sheer strength, Dabura is Super Perfect Cell Level exactly, besides his hax):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

El Manga Legendario generalized the entire case and states that Dabura is equal to Cell:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dabura was beating Ssj2 Gohan without going all-out

Dabura was beating SSJ2 Gohan without going all out? Last time i checked he was being overhelmed by Gohan as a SSJ1. I know Goku's statement should be comparing him with FP Cell, but the fact that Gohan as a SSJ overhelmed Dabra means the later should be around the Cell Goku fought.

Gohan and Vegeta no issue of fighting him in base? That's not true at all. You are just assuming that they have no issue with him in base (and I already told you why I think that), but logically they would.

I am not assuming. Gohan suggested fighting in base and Vegeta agreed, but both were confident on winning. You are making assumptions here, not me.

Kaioshin is not weaker than Babidi's men. He's just scared of them because of their reputation. He didn't know how strong they were. He only knew them. Babidi also never implied Kaioshin was weaker than them at all. And neither Piccolo or Kaioshin are trash against base saiyans, Kaioshin just underestimated them, that's what happened. It's ilogical for someone stronger than Piccolo, who is way stronger than Frieza, to be nothing against saiyans in base. You are clearly overestimating the base saiyans here.

So he's stronger than Dabra know? And the issue isn't only that he's scared of them, Babidi tells Pocus to be careful with the Saiyans but he completely ignores Shin. He's surprised when Pocus gets beaten up, etc.

And course they are trash. Shin shat a brick to Base Vegeta wrecking Pocus and Dabra straight up says Piccolo is trash and lumps him with Kuririn. You're just ignoring the feats and statements here.

But the gains were still high. Also Piccolo is smart in training, he has Kami on his inside since he fused with him, he would certainly know ways of getting stronger. I can't see why his gains wouldn't be the same as Vegeta's.

If anything Kami's influence held him back. It's stated Kami slacks off a lot:
Chapter: 182, P9.5
Piccolo: “Truly Son Goku is nothing but an obstacle for me…Far more so than God, who neglected his training.”

But that's because at the time Piccolo was the strongest thing along with Goku. Yeah, Piccolo has resistance, but there have been several cases along the series that show the saiyans to have way more resistance. Here is a big good example, Piccolo only resisted a super kamehameha from Goku, but Vegeta (saiyan arc) resisted a Kamehameha Kaioken X4, which is way more impressive.

Not really the same reason, as you said, the Cell Jrs were doing what they wanted, Nail was standing since Frieza was begging for him for the dragon balls, that was more important.

I'm not trying to prove Namekian resilience > Saiyan resilience here, i'm only saying Namekians are resilient too.

Tired Goku at Frieza level? That's actually the first time I ever heard that. I mean, can you see Frieza holding his own against a Tired Perfect Cell like Tired Goku did? I don't think so. If Goku was that weak in tired state, then anyone could've defeated Cell (except the humans obviously) at the time, but they were all acting like they couldn't.

You are only assuming that's the reason why Piccolo wasn't put down. Now, I will mention that in the manga, it says that Vegeta and Trunks were able to fight barely against them, but the way the translation is, it's more to the fact that they are the first examples that come to mind. Which means Piccolo is just not that far behind them. I mean, if Piccolo was that weak as you are saying, then why didn't the manga cover put him in the ground like Goku and the earthlings? Tell me why. He was shown standing for a reason you know? Again, namekians are not as durable as saiyans, and there are various examples on the series to show why. And you are assuming again that Piccolo was put down. If he was only shown standing in the very few pages we know of him fighting the Cell Jrs, then that's the only thing we know, that he was able to stand against them, I don't see why the need to put things far than that.

Goku quit from the fight right after wasting his ki on that spam of Ki Blasts. Not saying he is Freeza level, but it's possible. I have him at 17-16 level generally. It's also possible he's stronger than Piccolo, but doesn't have the stamina to fully use his power, but i dunno.

Here's the note Herms put on the Strength Checker below Cell's statement:
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; ya is a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.
It means it's ambiguous whetever there was someone else or not, not that there is definitely someone else.

Piccolo wasn't shown on the ground because he wasn't as weak as the fodder earthlings who couldn't take blows from semi serious Cell Jrs without passing out. That doesn't mean he's closing on Vegeta and Trunks. Tenshinhan could stand after Nappa beat the shit out of him. Even Tenshinhan and Yamcha were on their feet for a few pannels before falling, while Kuririn, who's the strongest of the three, was with his face on the dust as soon as the Cell Jr started to pummel him.

Yeah, but they could've been suppressed like him. Why wouldn't they? Android 20 can't gauge the strength very well and that's what it was shown.

But still not stated, so it's just conjecture. #20 can't gauge the strength of foes far superior (He says Goku far outstrips their data and he isn't able to tell Goku and Vegeta are stronger than #19 before they start fighting) but it's never implied he has any issue with inferior powers. He's able to tell Yamcha is a good source.

It's not impossible for Android 18 to be suppressed, she could've needed some time to gauge Mighty Mask's strength for all we know. I can't see why you are trying to give logic to something contradictory to the official statements we are given about base saiyans, Piccolo, etc.

She can know how strong Mighty Mask is by his movements though. If #17 could tell the difference between Piccolo, Trunks and Tenshinhan and beat the three of them without killing, then i think #18 can gauge Mighty Mask's power by seeing him dashing at her. Even if she somehow didn't, she can still gauge his power by the blows they exchanged.

Super follows the anime, but the anime also have SSJ3 Goku loosing against Buutenks, meaning that Buutenks is stronger than Kid Buu in the anime. SSJ3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, but as said before, fusions could be using different multipliers, I don't see why that changes anything about base Goku being inferior to Frieza.

Goku received a plot boost by the Pure Boo fight. After getting trashed by Bootenks he says Pure Boo is the strongest Boo while fighting as a SSJ2, and Kibitoshin also calls Pure Boo the most powerful instead of most dangerous like he does on the manga.

Everyone was surprised Goku was defeated, but as I said before, fusions could be different to normal beings. Again I don't see your logic of trying to change things that are officialy stated.

Minute: 10
Context: After Beerus defeats angry Vegeta
Beerus: "It's been a long time since I've used 10% or so of my full strength. Well, this was more fun than with that Saiyan over at North Kaio's place."
Beerus says Vegeta is the first guy to entertain him more than SSJ3 Goku, implying neither Gotenks nor Gohan were stronger than him. The multiplier thing don't work here because in the Boo Arc Gotenks' weakest form was stronger than Goku's strongest form.

No, they are not. You just think they are when they simply don't. Base saiyans < Frieza, as I said before, it's not contradictory. Nothing in Z proves anything at all, and everything you showed to me were just misinterpretations.

No, it's just you ignoring what's shown in Z for the sake of the contradictory informations from the new material.

That's not the case at all. Perfect Cell stomps Ssj Goku Cell Saga, that's not an argument to begin with at all. It's already argued that Buu Saga Goku (Base Form) is above Kaioshin who's equal to Ssj Goku Cell Games. It has plenty of support behind it.

The only thing that implies this is the guidebook you brought. Nothing on the manga implies Shin is anywhere near even 50% Goku.

I know Cell stomps on CG Goku. But had Pocus and Yakon been above CG Goku by stomping margin (It's implied they could solo Shin + Base Saiyans, so Shin by himself would be nothing to them) they'd be closing on Cell's level, but only Dabra receives any praise from the Saiyans by being compared to Cell.

Not really, Ssj Gohan in the Cell Games is not much above Goku, but as a Ssj2 it all varies

It's true Ssj2 has a set multiplier, but it's highly agreed that Ssj2 in the Cell Games differs from Ssj2 in the Buu Saga, as Gohan was powered up by his rage, releasing his latent power

But the chain you're trying to say is Vegeta >> Pocus >> Shin ~ CG Goku, but Vegeta is confident on taking a Gohan he belives to be only rusty on skills, what means he's on the same vicinity of CG Gohan. That way you end up with CG Gohan >=< Vegeta >> Pocus >> Shin ~ SSJ Goku (CG) what sounds like a bad joke. Had Gohan been dozens/hundreds of times above his father he'd instantly notice he's stronger than him, plus Goku wouldn't think he needs Gohan's latent power, considering he thought Cell was only "A bit" stronger than him.

That's no argument. By that logic SsjG Goku BoG is weaker than Ssj3 Goku Buu Saga because he's thinner

Goku looks thinner because he looks younger though. And he's still muscular regardless, while FnF Gohan lacks any muscles Boo or CG Gohan had.

Elder Kai also implies that in general, Ssj transformations aren't needed for powering up, implying it's one. Guides support This, and implied by Goku. Meaning Ultimate Gohan is not a form

You're right, i guess. I never put much thought on this anyway.

[spoiler]I'll tell you from where it came from

Goku reverts back from SsjG while fighting Beerus:





Beerus thought that the SsjG Time Limit has gone, although Goku didn't show any sign of notice:



Goku reverts back to Ssj:



Everyone senses Goku's Ki, thus everyone came to the same conclusion:









Again, you would think this means Goku got weaker while reverting back to Ssj right?

Wrong

You'd think this is the case based on the fact that Beerus easily starts to push Goku away:









Beerus casually pushed Goku with a finger as shown above, and casually talks while Goku is trying to attack him.

Is that true though? NO.

Prior to all that, before Goku started reverting back to Ssj, he still had his SsjG power intact, thus no one sensed him, and neither did Whis comment anything on it. Yet Beerus managed to ridicule that SAME SSJG POWER:





He quite clearly implies that Beerus is STILL using that same power against SsjG either way. Nothing suggests Beerus powered down. That's why he's easily blabbering while SsjG Goku is trying his best fighting Beerus.

Beerus specifies "this much power". Which amount of power? The power he is CURRENTLY using.

It doesn't make sense for Goku to get weaker. By Beerus's words themselves: Goku kept surpassing his limits during this same fight:



This is exactly what Goku's entire case revolves around in here, as will be shown down...

Vegeta throws a Ki blast towards Piccolo and Whis, because both of them thought this was "over" in which case Goku reverted to Regular Ssj, thus he "automatically lost" or at least according to them. Vegeta's action signifies that it isn't over yet:





Goku himself still dashes towards Beerus, without realizing he got weaker. This is all after he got flicked by Beerus:



This same Ssj Goku does better than the Goku who, at the end, faired very worse against Beerus:





This caused Beerus to question himself again (he wouldn't do that if he was weaker or if he was getting weaker, since Goku later got even stronger as a Ssj):





Happens TWICE:





Beerus knows that Goku can surpass his limits naturally.

Beerus tells Goku the case:





"I thought your time was up"

Implying he never got the slightest bit weaker at all.

Goku realizes he changed after being notified by Beerus:







Goku bluntly confesses that he doesn't feel weaker at all:





Beerus explains it:









With all of that mentioned, we can easily conclude that Goku's Power never got weaker at all. Despite the form being lost (this time limit was retconned in the tournament of power arc), the power completely merged with Goku. Thus, the power itself remained inside him, rather than the form in general. No power was lost, and Goku is still prone to getting stronger and breaking his initial limits further more.

Proof of Goku getting even further stronger is when he powered up to fight a powered-up Beerus and manages to trade blows with him, and enjoys the fight with Beerus:











The Narrator then confirms that only at this point did both characters perform a "true godly battle" rather than before (He also added to the notion "fighting idiots" or along this phrase, to emphasize their crazy lust for battle and how dense they are when it comes to usual critical manners, which is evident when Beerus said to Goku that his ignorance or foolishness has rubbed him off already):











The episode titles prove this:



They start all the way from "show me the power of Super Saiyan God!" which is the initial point, then we are shown that they are still going on with it, given we know Goku gets stronger through battle, then "Goku, Go Surpass Super Saiyan God!":



It is honestly evident enough here that they're trying to imply to us that Goku got stronger as a Ssj.

That's why later on, when Beerus decides to get even stronger and increase his strength, he starts soloing Goku, but he rises up telling Beerus it isn't over yet:



Despite having said before that he went Full Power:



This is excluding Later arcs which prove it further[/spoiler]

Yup, Goku absorbed SSJG into his SSJ and got even stronger. Nowhere here it's stated he absorbed the SSJG into his base.

Movies do not scale with Canon material at all, so it's easily arguable that Ssj2 Gohan from Movie 9 > his canon counterpart.

It's been argued long ago that Broly > Cell. Is that your only argument? If so, tell me so I can start my own

It's never implied though. We know movies like M3 don't follow the power scaling because it's implied, but we don't have any evidence that Gohan is any different from his Cell Games self. And mind you, lack of evidence isn't evidence. Otherwise i could argue this Gohan is even weaker than CG Gohan.

I actually have more arguments, but i don't think it's important to show them right know.

[kn83]

If Super Perfect Cell can bust the solar system, what does that say about his speed?

Nothing.
Zeno can bust the multiverse but he can't even see Dyspo move.

In order to bust the solar system, Cell's Kamehameha would have to reach the edge in relatively short order. Ki dissipates not long after it leaves the user.

If Cell is a solar system buster and Namek Saga Frieza is arguably star level, then Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least over 3000x stronger and faster than 100% Frieza from Namek. That's because that's how much more weight the entire solar system has over the sun.

Whenever someone gets more powerful they usually also get faster as well (Zeno is an exception due to being a non-fighter) since both stats are ki based.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If Cell is a solar system buster and Namek Saga Frieza is arguably star level, then Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least over 3000x stronger and faster than 100% Frieza from Namek. That's because that's how much more weight the entire solar system has over the sun.

This stuff isn't linear though, unless the farmer and his shotgun are country busters.

[kn83]

If Cell is a solar system buster and Namek Saga Frieza is arguably star level, then Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least over 3000x stronger and faster than 100% Frieza from Namek. That's because that's how much more weight the entire solar system has over the sun.

This stuff isn't linear though, unless the farmer and his shotgun are country busters.

Farmer with Shotgun and other normals don't use Ki, so they wouldn't apply regardless.

[BrolyKale]

It's never implied though. We know movies like M3 don't follow the power scaling because it's implied

M10 also don't follow the power scaling, even M13 because Goku's SSJ3 is much stronger than Ultimate Gohan. What makes you think that M9 Gohan is weaker than his canon counterpart?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

M10 also don't follow the power scaling, even M13 because Goku's SSJ3 is much stronger than Ultimate Gohan. What makes you think that M9 Gohan is weaker than his canon counterpart?

Me? I'm actually arguing M9 Gohan = CG Gohan. When i said Gohan might be weaker i was throwing his own logic against him. Thanks for the M10 and M13 examples btw.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Goku meant Gohan with an anger boost. I showed the scans where he stated this earlier.

The issue here is that Goku is referencing a Character stronger than him in general regardless. This has been already stated and implied, so you cannot try and deny it.

The problem with that is that Gohan expected his dad to be much stronger than himself. So of course if his dad was fighting even close to his level he would of thought he was holding back. In Gohan's mind Gohan<<<Goku, but he thought Goku was holding back because it was really Gohan<=>Goku

That's an assumption. Gohan thought Goku is Stronger Than him due to having the idea that his father is "the strongest". He compared the power of Goku to him, but if was inferior to Gohan's, thus he deduced he must be holding back

Gohan was never impressed by Goku in the first place:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Gohan is not impressed at all by Goku.

The fact King Kai wasn't sure means they are at least close.

No one says Gohan is astronomically above Goku. But Gohan is stronger alright.

He said there was some truth to that, and even after saying that he later on said that he wanted to fight Goku again. So clearly Cell still thought Goku was a better challenge

The problem with that is that Gohan expected his dad to be much stronger than himself. So of course if his dad was fighting even close to his level he would of thought he was holding back. In Gohan's mind Gohan<<<Goku, but he thought Goku was holding back because it was really Gohan<=>Goku

Please reread the scans if you mind:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Now reread what's stated before:

[spoiler]









[/spoiler]

[/quote]

It's too much obvious that Gohan is stronger. You are taking these statements beyond what they actually mean.

The Manga shows this too, where Goku asks Gohan, and when he answers that, everyone asks whether Goku is right or not. When Gohan powered up, Cell concluded that what Goku said isn't entirely wrong at all:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

The part where Goku wasn't right about, is BEING STRONGER than Cell. That's why earlier on he was annoyed by it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This is further proven by King Kai that Gohan might have surpassed even Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And Compare then with the context please from the Manga

There is no proof Cell wasn't using that speed on Goku. Again, even after increasing his speed and attacking Goku he asks for Goku to eat a senzu and fight Goku again. That means even post speed up Cell thought Goku was the better challenge.[/spoiler]

Wrong. You're actually supporting me. The entire battle Gohan had the upper advantage.

Cell used even MORE speed against Gohan. Cell was always holding back against Goku, to the point where he recommends Goku to eat a senzu bean:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Cell realized that Gohan is superior to Goku, thus he increased his speed.

Gohan handled Cell far better than Goku until Cell increased his strength even more and beat him up.

That line is talking about ssj2 most likely

[/quote]

That line is General actually. Here's the same guide:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Spanish Text

Gohan y Goku se entrenaron para el Cell Game. Al ser una mezcla de saiyano y terricola, Gohan tenía desde pequeno una gran fuerza de combate, como pudieron comprobar dos rivales de la talla de Vegeta y Freezer. Ha adquirido una fuerza que sorprende incluso a su propio padre. A pesar de ello, como su naturaleza no es precisamente guerrera, a veces le cuesta desplegar ese poder. Aunque durante su enfrentamiento con Cell sacó a relucir su inexperiencia, finalmente lo derrotó y logró salvar a la Tierra.

Gohan encaja los ataques de Cell como si nada. Su despliegue de poder sorprendió a todo el mundo.

English Text:

Gohan and Goku trained for the Cell Game. Being a mixture of Saiyano and Earthling, Gohan had a great fighting force since he was a child, as two rivals such as Vegeta and Frieza could verify. He has acquired a strength that surprises even his own father. Despite this, as his nature is not exactly warrior, sometimes it costs him to deploy that power. Although during his confrontation with Cell brought out his inexperience, finally defeated him and managed to save the Earth.

Gohan fits Cell's attacks like nothing. His display of power surprised everyone.

Gohan is simply inexperienced and doesn't like fighting, which makes him unable to put out his real amount of power (besides his potential).

Gohan > Goku both cell saga is an established fact. You can't say no to what the main sources say.

Dabura was beating SSJ2 Gohan without going all out? Last time i checked he was being overhelmed by Gohan as a SSJ1. I know Goku's statement should be comparing him with FP Cell, but the fact that Gohan as a SSJ overhelmed Dabra means the later should be around the Cell Goku fought.

Ssj Gohan? You Absolutely make no sense at all, regardless. Gohan was using Ssj2:



It makes no sense for Ssj Gohan to match Dabura who's equal to Cell, no matter which form. It was ways Ssj Gohan who fought Dabura.

If even it was the Cell Goku fought, Ssj Gohan would be stomped easily, yet in the Manga that wasn't shown. In Dragon Ball Kai, it's even more supported that Gohan was a Ssj2.

Dabura was trying to Kill Gohan:



There'd be no reason for Gohan to hold back into Ssj at all.

Neither Goku nor Vegeta are stating that Gohan isn't Ssj2, they argue that he's got WEAKER as a Ssj2:

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P10.5-6
Context: as Gohan fights Dabra
Vegeta: “Damn it…this is pissing me off! Alright, I’ll finish this!”
Goku: “Don’t, Vegeta! Let [Gohan] do it. It ain’t like he’s completely losing.”

They generalize it. There's no point in comparing Gohan to his Ssj2 Counterpart from the Cell Games if Gohan was a "Regular Super Saiyan". That honestly sounds funny in every possible way.

Kaioshin tells Kibito these two notions:

Chapter: 470 (DBZ 276), P5.2-4
Context: Kaioshin says the situation isn’t completely hopeless
Kibito: “Huh…!? You can’t mean…Does this have anything to do with Son Gohan…?”
Kaioshin: “That’s right…His power is far beyond our imagination. If we took it and changed it into something even more unreal, he might be able to surpass Majin Boo…”
Kibito: “Wh-what!? That can’t be…”
Kaioshin: “You didn’t see how amazing those 3 Saiyans were, so you probably couldn’t imagine…”

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito: “A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that some human would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”
Kaioshin: “You were dead, Kibito, so you didn’t get to see Gohan here’s unbelievably tremendous power.”

Despite Kibito witnessing Angry Ssj, and Ssj2:





So Ssj > Ssj2? That is your logic alright

Further evidence that he needed at least Ssj2 to match Dabura:







Gohan went Ssj2, no argument behind it.

The only thing that implies this is the guidebook you brought. Nothing on the manga implies Shin is anywhere near even 50% Goku.

1) That was never contradicted in the first place at all. Also, it is supported by the fact that Kaioshin is far stronger than Piccolo who's a lot stronger than his Cell Games counterpart:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”
Note: Piccolo’s line is a pretty standard way of saying that someone is stronger than you. You can find a lot of instances of people being described as in “a different dimension” throughout these quotes, like Tenshinhan talking about Super Saiyan Goku, or the narrator describing final form Freeza. In Viz the line is made vaguer (“He is a different order of being”), which makes it sound like Piccolo could just be talking about how Kaioshin is a super-god, rather than about his strength per-say. Anyway, though Piccolo is pretty much flat-out saying Kaioshin is way stronger than him here, you could still argue that he's either mistaken or lying...I guess.



Piccolo > Base Gohan Buu Saga.

So it can be made sense

2) Base Goku > Kaioshin is supported a lot in the Manga.

I know Cell stomps on CG Goku. But had Pocus and Yakon been above CG Goku by stomping margin (It's implied they could solo Shin + Base Saiyans, so Shin by himself would be nothing to them) they'd be closing on Cell's level, but only Dabra receives any praise from the Saiyans by being compared to Cell.

Before I move on, Pui Pui and Yakon are no match for Base Saiyans.

Goku was manhandling Yakon on his own. He went Ssj just to light up the surroundings, causing Yakon to suck his Ki up.

Vegeta casually stomped Pui Pui, who's above Kaioshin

Also, Perfect Cell was ridiculously far above Goku in the Cell Games, so it's more than a roflstomp. He powered up so much Goku showed signs of doubting Gohan's full potential:









So you can be far above Cell games Goku, but far weaker than Cell in his perfect form

And to have huge margin between Dabura and the others, it would mean Dabura is at least Super Perfect Cell level, who is far above even Perfect Cell.

Nothing really contradicts it at all. So we go by it, not use assumptions.

So there basically is nothing wrong with this.

But the chain you're trying to say is Vegeta >> Pocus >> Shin ~ CG Goku, but Vegeta is confident on taking a Gohan he belives to be only rusty on skills, what means he's on the same vicinity of CG Gohan. That way you end up with CG Gohan >=< Vegeta >> Pocus >> Shin ~ SSJ Goku (CG) what sounds like a bad joke.

Nothing is bad about this logic. Dabura sensed the Ki of all the hidden Z Fighters, concluding Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta to be the strongest:



It can't be that he sensed their potential, because that would mean he'd know Pui Pui and Yakon aren't enough.

It might be an inconsistency for Gohan only, but not for Goku and Vegeta.

Had Gohan been dozens/hundreds of times above his father he'd instantly notice he's stronger than him, plus Goku wouldn't think he needs Gohan's latent power, considering he thought Cell was only "A bit" stronger than him.

Gohan as a Ssj2 would be dozens if times above Goku, and there'd be no trouble with it. Goku underestimated Cell heavily.

Characters can tell how powerful the other is just by looking at them, but that would be wrought estimate, so they might as well underestimate the enemy. Goku doesn't know it Cell was holding back against him, but then he's proven wrong. Later on, Cell shows power which amazes everybody except Ssj2 Gohan.

Gohan didn't get weaker than his Cell Saga Counterpart, except for his Ssj2 Form

Goku looks thinner because he looks younger though. And he's still muscular regardless, while FnF Gohan lacks any muscles Boo or CG Gohan had.

Nappa is far thicker than Vegeta in DBS and has electricity and all that jazz around him, yet he's weaker by far:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You're right, i guess. I never put much thought on this anyway

If you want furhter support, here's the same guide "El Manga Legendario" Stating it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yup, Goku absorbed SSJG into his SSJ and got even stronger. Nowhere here it's stated he absorbed the SSJG into his base.

You kind of messed the whole point of this. It's Later stated that His base surpassed his earlier Ssj power. On Episode 14 Goku surpasses his limits yet again in base form. Then he kept training

It's arguable he surpassed his SsjB Counterpart from RoF in base (In the Tournament Of Power). Crazy as it may seem, it's supported

It's never implied though. We know movies like M3 don't follow the power scaling because it's implied, but we don't have any evidence that Gohan is any different from his Cell Games self. And mind you, lack of evidence isn't evidence. Otherwise i could argue this Gohan is even weaker than CG Gohan.

[/quote][/quote]

Let's then argue shall we?

Broly Destroyed An Entire Galaxy WITHIN the southern quadrant in an instant:



The Narrator Confirms That Broly Is Destroying The Southern Quadrant Entirely:



It's specified that broly is destroying the Southern Galaxy. This term refers to the entire southern quadrant of the dbz universe:

DBZ living world is infinite:

[size=125]http://magikarp46.com/dragonb ... php[/size]

エリア

Area

Means each region of the universe, which is divided into East, West, South, North. It is expressed as the "East Area" and the "West Area." The areas divided into East, West, South, North are governed by respective Kaiou.

[Par.] Like the universe, the Demon Realm is also divided into multiple areas.

銀河

Galaxy

A gathering of local planets in the universe. Planets gather and form a nebula, and beyond that, a collection of gathered nebulae is called a galaxy. The four Kaiou who rule over the east, west, south, and north [sections] of the universe actually govern these galaxies. Because the Kami in the Heavenly Realm and the Kaiou supervise the galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe, the sections known as the East, West, South, and North Galaxies are denominations that came into use through their duty.



The reference of "infinite" could be Over-exaggeration but it hasn't been contradicted at all considering that this is also supervised by Akira Toriyama about the size of the Living World. It might not make sense that say but you can think of it either way tbh.

The idea is confirmed:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=11596

The Universe

宇宙/Uchuu

Translation: the universe, space, outer space

The universe is the upper portion of the living world, and is the realm where Goku and the other main characters live and die. It’s the only portion of the DB world that even remotely resembles reality, being based off of the actual universe (or at least the universe as seen in countless sci-fi space operas like Star Wars). As such it consists of countless planets, stars, and other celestial bodies.

These 4 galaxies serve as the governing areas for the gods, and so each one is overseen by the corresponding Kaio and Kaioshin.

Movie 8 Released Guide:



"Laying waste to the South Galaxy/galaxies"

If you still doubt such power, scale him to hatchyiack.

Hatchyiack Distorted most of the cosmos and his strength moved a galaxy away from its position:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TVTPT0TSunE

Hatchyiack's power nearly rivals Broly Movie 8.



(The fact that Goku said "Might" means hes uncertain if it's true or not so this would be the same as saying "rivals").

Toei's website:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/kami_sama ... 6003754296

King kai confirms Broly has the ability to Destroy the northern quadrant:



This requires ridiculous amount of Travel Speed and Combat speed via Reaction.

Goku searches for the left-over of Broly's ki in the southern Galaxy and he states it's weak. Proving that he's been there long ago destroying the areas (if there are planets and stars left, it still means broly destroyed the galaxy. Again the area is VERY wide so little left overs wouldn't change a thing):



While Goku was going to the left overs of southern galaxy, you can't see any trace of galaxies even though he's going at it's way except planets:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8BhAMdxrIXc

[spoiler](Skip the rest just at the very beginning)[/spoiler]

Paragus claims that Broly can destroy the universe entirely if he was left alone:



Paragus Includes Northern Galaxy, as part with the Eastern and Western GALAXIES, proving that it means quadrants:



Paragus excludes southern quadrant from the other quadrants because it was destroyed nearly all.

Easily Withstood Vegeta's attack:



Argument: "Goku and the others at least held their own"

Debunk:

This is a movie that can't be Scaled over canon material. As you can see, Akira toriyama stated that movies happen in different dimensions and he's just an audience:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/

Also, before king kai saying anything about broly's LSsj, he starts to get nervous and calls for help knowing that the northern quadrant will be destroyed in no time. There are two possibilities to this:

1- Broly has improved ridiculously over time to which he's now powerful enough to obliterate parts of the northern quadrant so fast it ain't taking time, and the fact that king kai called up for help proves that it wouldn't be long for the quadrant to be destroyed, that even goku and the others night be killed fast during their life span, if it isn't less than a year, heck a year, he wouldn't call for help fast

2- Broly ain't playing around anymore and chooses to destroy it fast

Both possibilities work and both result in a true result.

I will now be generous and Answer those people who still believe we should scale broly to canon material and broly destroyed a "single" galaxy. A solar system is 1/100,000,000,000th of a galaxy. So, to destroy a galaxy in 70 years which is a massive lowball on its own, you need to destroy 45.2997028339 solar systems per second, but we know that broly chills, sleeps, and rampages all over the place for fun, so that'd make him multi-solar system+++. Cell is A regular Multi-Solar System at the most. No comparison. Also Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Trunks and Gohan all were fodder to Broly, yet Goku survived EASILY against perfect cell. Yes, Super Perfect Cell is so powerful according to his regular perfect form, but not to the extend where'd he shit on dbz characters as broly did, the multiplier of Ssj2 is 2x Ssj and Perfect Cell is enough to destroy him, yet Super Perfect Cell is weaker than 100% Ssj2...

Anyway, this is all Restrained fucking Ssj, so this Restrained Ssj is literally stronger than Super Perfect Cell already. But I'm still gonna a continue. Even Restrained Ssj broly survived a wild kick from an Ascended Super Saiyan Vegeta, who's leagues above His canon counterpart. He survived LSsj Broly strong attack and survived his hand pressure in his Base:



Goku concludes that the energy (the one that is capable of destroying entire countless number of galaxies) he sensed is broly by simply sensing MAX 100% Restrained Ssj:









On Multiple occasions it's stated that Broly can destroy the universe:





Argument: "he was beaten by Goku with the energies of weakened Saiyans and Piccolo"

This ending was just a plain inconsistency. First, we will assume Goku has his 100% which is utterly wrong but whatever. 100% Goku is fodder against broly. First, we will say Piccolo was so injured he gave 1% of his energy. His 100% is Ssj tier. So, 100% Goku + 1% Piccolo is how 101%. Now Trunks and Gohan. They were so Injured that their base forms where at least at 1%. Ssj is a 50x multiplier, so 2% Ssj is equivalent to 100% base form. Meaning 0.02% is actually a Saiyan's 1% base. Multiply it by 3 since it's Vegeta's as well, Gohan and Trunks, that means 101.06% is the Goku that defeated Broly. Didn't broly stomp all the Ssj tiers? With more, A Restrained Ssj easily survived a wild kick from Ascended Ssj Vegeta.

A Restrained Ssj wasn't able to one shot base Goku, neither did he one shot a Ssj, nor did LSsj vaporize or destroy a base vegeta let alone Ssj, nor Goku or anyone when at base form. A Ssj multiplier is 50x. So 101.06% Goku can't defeat LSsj

For those who wanna know a proof from canon material, look at Goku saiyan saga, power level 8,000 keeping up EASILY with held back Vegeta power level 16,500. Since power levels aren't linear but way more.

Possible increase of LSsj:

Since this is M10 (Down) we won't care, but we do care about the multiplier. If base Gohan can at least hold his own against Ssj broly, yet he went Ssj2:



Which is 100x base, and Ssj2 is also 2x Ssj, Gohan got 100x stronger than at least 2x Ssj Broly meaning the multiplier of LSsj is over 7,000x stronger than Base easily



Broly was able to tank his own blows when destroying worlds all over the place with his ridiculous rampage:



Scaling from Bojack, who was stated in guides and the movie to have destroyed most of the galaxies of the universe in instants until the kais sealed him, Bojack >=<< Broly (I here conclude that Bojack can stomp Cell with utter ease). Note that Bojack traveled number of galaxies to get to earth in no time at all at the very first when he was freed:

http://web.archive.org/web/201111040339 ... dbz09#link

"Audacity! The one who rioted through the universe!!

[After laying waste to the northern, southern, eastern, and western galaxies, he was sealed by the four kaio at the end of the galaxies. After Kaio and the Planet of the Kaio were wiped out when Goku defeated Cell, his seal was broken and he was revived. He plans on ruling the universe, starting with Earth."

Bojack has powers surpassing that of a super saiyan (which would include all regular Super Saiyans that appeared in the movies, which includes the Z fighters):



Bojack crushed the z fighters who, if going in sequence of the movies, got a lot stronger (All of them). That was merely base Bojack who also one shotted Trunks Ssj and destroyed Piccolo and Vegeta until he transformed to take on Gohan Ssj.

Movie 10 confirms that According to Gohan Broly was strongest. He's more worried of Broly's coming. Gohan thought his Base is Powerful enough to easily beat broly until broly held his own against Gohan very well.



Broly always warps the area around him when he Transforms to LSsj. Which is further supported by Hatchyiack's feat.

Broly Ssj M10 >= Base Gohan M10 >> Broly M8.

King kai realizing that Broly was doing all that mess in the universe not long ago proves the speed and progression Broly have passed through.







Cell is only a Solar System with long charging, while that's quite nothing to Broly...

Film Anime Comics:



El Manga Legendario proves this as well:



So Despite Broly Not Fully Destroying The Southern Galaxy (Aka Quadrant Here, Or "Area"), He Caused Multiple Multi-Galaxy+ Level Destruction, Which Causally Puts Down Cell, Who Is A Solar System Buster Only Given Time To Charge, And At Best Solar System+ Using Anime, Since Cell Powered Up Even More After Stating That Statement

Gohan Movie 9 > Bojack > Cell Games (everybody out there from canon material)

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

If Cell is a solar system buster and Namek Saga Frieza is arguably star level, then Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least over 3000x stronger and faster than 100% Frieza from Namek. That's because that's how much more weight the entire solar system has over the sun.

The Anime depicted the explosion of Namek to be multi-star level:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And just like GreatSaiyaman123 said, it isn't linear.

The average power level needed to destroy a [¿unspecified size?] planet is 10,000:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yet Characters below that (not by much even) have been shown to be moon busters such as Master Roshi at full power

[kn83]

If Cell is a solar system buster and Namek Saga Frieza is arguably star level, then Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least over 3000x stronger and faster than 100% Frieza from Namek. That's because that's how much more weight the entire solar system has over the sun.

The Anime depicted the explosion of Namek to be multi-star level:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And just like GreatSaiyaman123 said, it isn't linear.

The average power level needed to destroy a [¿unspecified size?] planet is 10,000:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yet Characters below that (not by much even) have been shown to be moon busters such as Master Roshi at full power

Makes sense, no arguments from me. However, Master Roshi moon-busting is kind of an outlier since King Piccolo (who was stronger at the time) is canonically only city-level. Beginning-of-Z Piccolo being a moon-buster is acceptable though.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

If Cell is a solar system buster and Namek Saga Frieza is arguably star level, then Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least over 3000x stronger and faster than 100% Frieza from Namek. That's because that's how much more weight the entire solar system has over the sun.

The Anime depicted the explosion of Namek to be multi-star level:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And just like GreatSaiyaman123 said, it isn't linear.

The average power level needed to destroy a [¿unspecified size?] planet is 10,000:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yet Characters below that (not by much even) have been shown to be moon busters such as Master Roshi at full power

Makes sense, no arguments from me. However, Master Roshi moon-busting is kind of an outlier since King Piccolo (who was stronger at the time) is canonically only city-level. Beginning-of-Z Piccolo being a moon-buster is acceptable though.

It's not really an outlier. Usually, the result of a blast can be very vague. For example, regular blasts from SsjB Goku could barely destroy a building, but these blasts hold force far greater than all of DBZ Tiers combined.

It's a matter or AoE, area of effect. Note that Master Roshi's moon busting was never forgotten. It was mentioned twice, once in the 22nd Budokai Tournament, and Tien hasn't shown any signs of scare from it, and once when Goku fought His Grandpa in the Uranai Baba Arc.

El Manga Legendario confirms this to be factual and not an outlier:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

New match:

- Hakaishin Toppo vs. UI Goku (vs. Kefla)

For Now, Toppo. Although he'd have a shit ton of trouble because of Goku's Ultra Instinct. However, Goku might as well be capable of resisting this Hakaishin Power, so we can't really be certain at all. We'll have to wait for more information, since it would be all about speculation

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Nothing.
Zeno can bust the multiverse but he can't even see Dyspo move.

This is an inconsistency. It was all just so that they tell us "Dyspo is so fast lol!"

Zeno was able to track Toppo and SsjB Goku:





Toppo is IMPLIED to be better than Dyspo in every way possible by The God Of Destruction Vermouth and the Kaioshin himself:





There is nothing to fear, and mention the best 2 characters. Despite this, Toppo transforms into his God Of Destruction phase and blitzes Frieza.

Zeno could also track Jiren, Goku and Vegeta moving, as well as Ultra Instinct Goku and Kefla (and Hit), who all far surpass Dyspo in speed.

Zeno not tracking Dyspo is a repeat of Episode 104 as an emphasis over his "crazy" speed. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

New Matches

I'll be placing my thoughts on specific Topics, and you argue whether you agree or not. If not, debate said topic with me or anybody else:

[Ki Breaker]

New match

[spoiler]

VS

[/spoiler]

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[spoiler]New Matches

I'll be placing my thoughts on specific Topics, and you argue whether you agree or not. If not, debate said topic with me or anybody else:





[/spoiler]

Agree with the first one. Piccolo thinks the boys are earth's only hope but shits a brick to SSJ Goten. Goten's feats are far above anything Piccolo could hope to do.

I disagree with the second. Goku seemed pretty fucked by Oob's Kiai. The best they could be are equals IMO.

Dunno about the third, though. It goes to matter of what matters more in Potara fusion: Rivalry or raw power.

(Gohan was SSJ2 argument)

The Daizenhuu 7 is a both manga and anime guidebook (Where the later clearly has Gohan as a SSJ2), but the Daizenshuu 2, a manga only guidebook, says Teen Gohan only used SSJ2 on volume 37, whereas his fight with Dabra was on volume 38:


Gohan was indeed not using all of his power, he admited so prior to fighting Boo:
Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

The reason for this is that he isn't mad enough to power up:
Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

Gohan didn't train after the Cell Games, so the only way he could transform was by getting enraged. His transformation as a SSJ2 was an outlier and was later retconed, as evidenced by Shin implying the Gohan he paralyzed wasn't at full power:
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being so tough
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Also, the final nail in the coffin: The artwork. Just compare Gohan when he fought Dabra to both forms Gohan showed by the Budokai:

SSJ Gohan
[spoiler][/spoiler]

SSJ2 Gohan
[spoiler][/spoiler]

SSJ2 Gohan?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dragon Ball has a lot of inconsistences, and the Boo Arc is pretty much the peak of it. The artwork, however, is consistent during the whole manga, and Toriyama rarely makes mistakes with the difference between the SSJ forms besides a panel or two from far away.

1) That was never contradicted in the first place at all. Also, it is supported by the fact that Kaioshin is far stronger than Piccolo who's a lot stronger than his Cell Games counterpart:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.3-4
Context: after Piccolo resigns from his and Kaioshin's match
Goku: “That much, Piccolo?...”
Piccolo: “Yeah…Our dimensions…are too different…”
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding, right? Stop joking around! I-I’ve got to fight him next.”

Image

Piccolo > Base Gohan Buu Saga.

So it can be made sense

2) Base Goku > Kaioshin is supported a lot in the Manga.

Yeah, i already know Shin >> Piccolo. That's pretty straightforward. Nothing implies Piccolo is anywhere near Shin, though.

What implies Piccolo > Base Gohan? Gohan is the one who suggests fighting in base, and Dabra calls Gohan "Marvelous energy" but says Piccolo is trash.

Before I move on, Pui Pui and Yakon are no match for Base Saiyans.

Goku was manhandling Yakon on his own. He went Ssj just to light up the surroundings, causing Yakon to suck his Ki up.

Vegeta casually stomped Pui Pui, who's above Kaioshin

Also, Perfect Cell was ridiculously far above Goku in the Cell Games, so it's more than a roflstomp. He powered up so much Goku showed signs of doubting Gohan's full potential:

Image

Image

Image

Image

So you can be far above Cell games Goku, but far weaker than Cell in his perfect form

And to have huge margin between Dabura and the others, it would mean Dabura is at least Super Perfect Cell level, who is far above even Perfect Cell.

Nothing really contradicts it at all. So we go by it, not use assumptions.

So there basically is nothing wrong with this.

Yakona actually had Goku on his toes the whole fight and Gohan thought he and Goku should fight together. But why are you bringing this anyway? I never said Pocus was a match for Base Saiyans, lol.

Cell is the next tier above SSJ Goku. Had Pocus and Yakon been >> CG Goku it'd be wiser to compare then to Cell instead of Goku. However, neither of them received any praise and were just killed off and forgotten.

Nothing is bad about this logic. Dabura sensed the Ki of all the hidden Z Fighters, concluding Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta to be the strongest:

Image

It can't be that he sensed their potential, because that would mean he'd know Pui Pui and Yakon aren't enough.

It might be an inconsistency for Gohan only, but not for Goku and Vegeta.

What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with my argument.

Gohan as a Ssj2 would be dozens if times above Goku, and there'd be no trouble with it. Goku underestimated Cell heavily.

Characters can tell how powerful the other is just by looking at them, but that would be wrought estimate, so they might as well underestimate the enemy. Goku doesn't know it Cell was holding back against him, but then he's proven wrong. Later on, Cell shows power which amazes everybody except Ssj2 Gohan.

Gohan didn't get weaker than his Cell Saga Counterpart, except for his Ssj2 Form

If you think Gohan didn't lose any power, then that means CG Gohan > SSJ CG Goku. Such a gargantuan gap is ludicrous, Gohan would instantly know he's stronger than his father and Goku, who like you said, understimated Cell and did not know he was holding back tons of power, wouldn't think he needs Gohan's latent power to save the world. He think just Gohan's regular SSJ power is enough.

Nappa is far thicker than Vegeta in DBS and has electricity and all that jazz around him, yet he's weaker by far:

That's for difference reasons though. Nappa's portrayed as the bulky one to be hyped, making the reader think Nappa's the strongest one before it's revealed it's actually Vegeta. Gohan portrayed as thinner than his Boo Arc self to show how laughably weaker he is.

Vegeta also had sparks btw:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

You kind of messed the whole point of this. It's Later stated that His base surpassed his earlier Ssj power. On Episode 14 Goku surpasses his limits yet again in base form. Then he kept training

Could you post the statement?

(Broly argument)

Aside from the first scene of the movie showing the Galaxy disappearing, nothing implies Broly is that strong.

North Kaio: Mm. He’s already finished tearing up the Southern Galaxy, and appears to be after my Northern Galaxy next [...] First go check the Southern Galaxy.

Kaio telling Goku to check the South Galaxy implies that albeit damaged, the Galaxy is still there. That can mean civilization, and Herms agrees:

On that note, after Goku thinks to himself that Broli is the one who "destroyed" the Southern Galaxy, he shortly thereafter semi-repeats himself, saying that Broli is the Super Saiyan who "ran riot through" the Southern Galaxy. So it seems like all this makes the most sense if we treat "destroy" in this context as meaning that Broli attacked/laid waste/etc the Southern Galaxy. That is, he just went from planet to planet destroying the civilizations there, leaving ruined planets like the one Goku visits for a bit. The only thing that seems to indicate that he literally wiped it out completely is the opening shot of the spiral galaxy thingy dissolving into blackness, but this doesn't jibe too well with what we see/are told throughout the rest of the movie.

Furthermore, it's also stated on one of the quotes you posted from Daizenshuu 6 that Bojack wrecked havoc trought the universe, even though the Galaxies are intact. When Goku searchs throught the Galaxy, it's also possible to see lots of planets and stars:
https://youtu.be/rpHdgn3UaBc?t=6m4s

More from Herms:

Also, a bit more on what the movie means by "destroy": it's said that Broli "attacked" Planet Shamo, after which its inhabitants were moved to New Planet Vegeta. But Planet Shamo is clearly still physically there, since we see Broli actually blow it up midway through the movie. This seems consistent with the idea that Broli went around attacking planets by destroying the cities/civilizations on them, rather than blowing them up Freeza-style.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I disagree with the second. Goku seemed pretty fucked by Oob's Kiai. The best they could be are equals IMO.

It's proven further that Goku is Stronger.

Before we start with the real sources that needs important focus, let's check out what Goku said about Kid Buu Getting reborn:



Chapter: 516 (DBZ 322), P11.2-3
Context: after Polunga restores Goku’s stamina and he’s about to finish Boo off with the Genki-Dama
Goku: “I wanna fight you one-on-one…I’ll be waiting…And I’ll have gotten much, much better…See ya later!”

So what's the main significance here? Well if you look carefully, here it is established that Goku wants Buu to be reincarnated BACK as a good guy and he will train hard enough to match him at that Time. This signifies:

1) Goku knows he's currently inferior to the Hypothetical Reincarnated Kid Buu, thus mentions training so he would match him well.

2) Goku wants to fight him one on one. He admires the fact that he's a great opponent for him and he wants to solely surpass that power, implying that he's inferior to him at that time but he won't be so when he'll get reincarnated.

Given Goku's confidence in his ability to get stronger to his level in these years of mostly peace, he knows he needs time to reach his level which is quite understandable to an extent. It can also refer to his base form reaching such heights.

We've already seen that Goku as a Ssj3 while gathering his Ki could beat up Kid Buu (later on Goku indirectly proves to us readers that he underestimated him). Seeing how Goku would need ALL that time to reach that little power, which In case he already is at Kid Buu's range of power, it would kinda break what little or huge sense is there on its own; in other simpler words, it'd be vastly illogical.

Goku wants to get stronger always, aiming for the best out there. Just simply needing that much time would kinda be contradictory to Goku's fast gains of power AND what you'll be seeing later.

Let's continue for now. Our main establishment for now was that According To Goku's Implification:

¿Reincarnated Buu = Kid Buu

10 years has passed in which Reincarnated Buu would have grown enough to fight with his already ridiculous power. Goku decides to enter the Tournament because He wants to mainly fight This reincarnated Villain. Goku even RECOMMENDS Vegeta to enter as well so he could have his shot against Reincarnated Buu. This is implied by Goku when Vegeta asked Him "Why" then Goku replied that someone powerful will be entering.



Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P2.4-8
Context: Vegeta asks Goku why he’s entering the next Tenkaichi Budoukai
Goku: “Because someone’s entering who seems incredible! I’ve had my eye on him for awhile, and he came to the tournament grounds this morning.”
Vegeta: “What!? …I don’t feel any ki that strong…”
Goku: “He’s completely suppressing his ki now. ..But somehow I can tell…that he’s definitely strong…”
Vegeta: “…Hmph, are you joking? There’s no way a guy like that could exist…Don’t tell me he’s an alien!?”
Goku: “Nope, he’s an Earthling.”
Bulma: “Huh!? That’s impossible.”

Goku still has his idea of Him that he'll be someone great and powerful enough to entertain him despite all the training he's done to the point that be didn't even have time to meet Bulma and the others for 5 years straight.

Goku even believes that he's gonna be someone worth fighting even while he's talking to Vegeta, and spouting it bluntly. An already strong reincarnation of Kid Buu holding the same power Goku wants would actually 100% prove that He's gonna be no less worse than what Goku has an idea of Him.

Chain:

¿Reincarnated Buu = Kid Buu ?-? Goku

The following isn't much of a point, but it shows that Goku has been training a lot and he even made Goten join Him. He replies along Vegeta that they have been slacking off proving that the world is at peace. Yet it didn't stop Goku at all, waiting for this moment despite it all:



This one is really a hardcore piece. As expected, all the participants from the Z-fighters have passed the preliminaries and advanced to the main Tournament Grounds. They notify Mr. Satan about what they've done. As he panics, Goku tells him to not worry because they won't be stealing the title from them. Although Goku then says "someone besides us and buu might win", obviously leaving Satan no chance but to think Goku's bluffing:



Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?"

Well yes you could come out of your seat and say that Goku was purposely scaring him but what would Goku gain from it? Goku is a guy who "hates" lying when there's no reason to. You could include DBS or Movie where he approves of that fact. Regardless, there is no reason to even say that when Goku knows his strength between the others.

Goku includes Buu and Vegeta into the argument. Whether it could have been too far-taken, it doesn't rule the fact that Goku acknowledged the possibility.

Goku would obviously, and logically, be referring to the Reincarnated Buu. There's no reason to not think so as there isn't anybody out there who can touch them to begin with.

No one from Goku's group seem to recognize who's the "great fighter" Goku's talking about. Goku then rushes to Buu to tell him to manipulate the numbers and lots picked to his favor so he could fight The Reincarnated Buu at the very start where he's at full power:





Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P10.2
Context: Goku asks Boo to rig the match-ups so he can fight Oob
Goku: “…Sorry, but I wanna fight with him no matter what, in the 1st round when both of us still have 100% of our stamina…”

This is further evidence of Goku's confidence in The Reincarnated Buu's abilities and all. He wants to fight him, considering him his equal.

Goku then tells Vegeta who is it in actuality. He explains some refreshing stuff about this:





Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P11.6-8
Goku: “He’s the one…While I’ve been training on my own, I’ve been waiting all this time for that kid to enter the tournament…[ ]…10 years ago, when that outrageously bad Majin Boo died, I made a wish…That this time, he be reborn as a good guy, so we could fight one-on-one…Apparently old man Enma Daio heard me, and pulled some strings on my behalf…”

Goku states that he's been waiting all this time just for this moment. This proves that According to Goku, a reincarnation of Kid Buu would make him hold that strength (hence his patience all these years while ridiculously training hard for this day), would be as powerful as back then which is furthered here when he said he'd want to fight him one on one.

We now established that:

Oob ?-? Current Goku >>> End Of Buu Saga Goku

Goten now has Buu as his opponent thus panics. Goku tells him that if he kept training it wouldn't have been trouble. This WIDELY implies that Current Goku >>> Buu. Goku even tells Goten that he would even have at him if he trained.



Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P1.3
Goten: “Th-that can’t be! How can I go up against Boo right in the first round?!”
Goku: “It’s only a problem because you keep slacking off in your training.”

Goku already implied with Vegeta that For their case it's the opposite:

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P3.5
Vegeta: “Hmph. It pains us both how weak our children act.”
Goku: “Haha, that’s true. Well, that’s peace for you.”

Characters usually agree to NOT transform into Super Saiyans because they might be recognised.

The only thing People forgot was This:



They would still remember however the events of the Cell Games despite it being a long Time, and besides, they'd drag a ton of attention anyways.





Which can be furthered by that fact as well.

As Goku enters with Oob into the fighting stage, Piccolo states that this match will the "match of the day" meaning Piccolo simply concluded that Oob should have monstrous power to make it a "match of the day" with someone of Goku's level. Goku even tells him not to stress out because it would strict his latent abilities:



Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P6.4-5
Context: as Goku and Oob are about to fight
Piccolo: “This will be the most notable fight this time around…”
Dende: “Huh?”
Goku (to Oob): “Don’t be so tense. You won’t be able to put forth your true ability.”

This fighters out point of Oob having Kid Buu's Power.

Chain:

Oob = Kid Buu ¿>=<? Base Goku

Goku decides to wake up his potential by throwing insults and when he does and Oob gets mad, he really does Hurt Goku and shakes him off even:



Still not that much of a change but a good way to show us how much he seems it at a serious matter.

Oob shakes off Goku:



Even Gohan and Krillin where swallowing their shit again:

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P10.6
Context: as Goku and Oob fight
Kuririn: “Yo-you’re kidding…!?”
Gohan: “Wh-what is that kid…!?”

This proves That Goku got RIDICULOUSLY stronger hence their shock.

Goku did train at an utmost rate to the point of this:

Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P1.3
Context: Bulma complains about how Goku never comes to visit
Bulma: “5 years! 5 years ago, when everyone was getting together, and even then you said you were training and didn’t come!”

As The fight progresses, Goku realizes how untrained Oob is, thus decides to train him knowing his potential even though it "never" occurred with him which shows it being natural. The best part is by Goku saying "You're just like I thougut". Goku thought of Him at Kid Buu's level. We also see Goku handling him easily at his part.



Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”

This goes to show how great Oob is, and how Goku IN BASE is ridiculously strong.

Chain:

Base Goku >>> Oob = Kid Buu

Goku decides to train Oob to master his power so he could fight Goku in an all-out fight. Goku believes that Oob will become powerful enough to fight Goku (this signifies Goku's confidence in his power to stay above Oob [He never plans to be surpassed] but we can also say that Goku will train through these years which is way more likely). Piccolo implies that Goku is extremely happy about This, and more to it is of what Vegeta mentioned.





Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P17.1 [Kanzenban]
Context: after Goku flies off with Oob
Vegeta: “I’ll definitely win soon. You’ll see, Kakarot… ”

The translation ^ implies that Vegeta is weaker than Goku, and that Goku will also be training. (Vegeta also implied that he trained and we don't have any other confirmation of how much Goku is stronger thus We can only say that they're equal or Goku is a bit stronger)

El Manga Legendario states that Uub = Kid Buu:



Last chain:

Base Goku >= Base Vegeta >>>>> Oob = Kid Buu

Dunno about the third, though. It goes to matter of what matters more in Potara fusion: Rivalry or raw power.

El Manga Legendario states that Vegito > Gokhan due to Rivalry:



This is somewhat supported in the Manga actually, though partially, but relatable to an extent.

The Daizenhuu 7 is a both manga and anime guidebook (Where the later clearly has Gohan as a SSJ2), but the Daizenshuu 2, a manga only guidebook, says Teen Gohan only used SSJ2 on volume 37, whereas his fight with Dabra was on volume 38:

That has nothing to do with anything in the first place. The Daizenshuu 7, the most trusted and revised out of the other, states it directly.

Secondly, Ssj2 Gohan from the Cell Games is not the equivalent of the Buu Saga one.

Daizenshuu States why Gohan is weaker as a Ssj2 in the Buu Saga rather than in the cell games:



Translated text:

https://plus.google.com/109904308525937 ... ko31JBaT8i

Yet in the same scan, it also says Gohan as a Ssj2 got weaker:

https://plus.google.com/109904308525937 ... Di4RSxZg9d

The MAIN REASON mentioned is because:

1) He couldn't power up himself with anger. Yes, he really couldn't. As we argued before, it was an attempt to anger Gohan, but Gohan was completely calm. He completely calmed down from Videl's beat down:



[/img]http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... -KWWOK.jpg[/img]



Gohan was calm. Anger Boosts Gohan, which is why in the Cell Games He's stronger as a Ssj2 despite having an equal base and Super Saiyan powers during both intervals of times.

#1: El Manga Legendario confirms that Gohan, WITH ANGER, Transformed into a Ssj2.

It's also stated in the following same scan that Gohan, as a Ssj2 for the first time with ANGER, has awakened his true power, despite Ssj2 not being a form which correlates with inner potential in any possible way:



Rough translations:

"Although the best way to see the figure is from the front, it is also advisable to observe it sideways, as in the Vineta on which it is inspired. The iirons stand out in their iuniform"

"«I designed the wrinkles so that whoever contemplates it from its best angle (from the front) gets the best impression. Those in the shoulder area extend in all directions to reflect Gohan's fury right at the moment he reaches the second level, ready to take down the Cell Juniors. This image of Gohan is reminiscent of that of the young Goku when he finished with Drum, before confronting the king of demons. " Son Gohan as Supersaiyano of second level has been modeled by Hiroyuki Nakazawa and the figure has been produced by Terüiko Kimura (Proovy Co., Ltd.)."

"I will not forgive you!"

"The awakening of his true strength! The destruction of the A-16 at the hands of the perfect Cell and the attack of the Cell Juniors to his friends provoke a fit of anger in the peaceful Gohan"

#2: El Manga Legendario specifies that Gohan's range was amped with Gohan which caused his latent power to be released which achieved Ssj2 at the process:



"La ira de Gohan libera por fin todo su poder latente y el momento en que supera la potente barrera de supersaiyano es precisamente cstc. Alcanza una forma superior de un poderoso segundo nivel de supersaiyano, tn esta fase, el joven Gohan se convierte en un guemero cuyo poder supera al de Goku y este hecho resulta muy significativo para el transcurso cle la histaria. El papel de protector de la Tierra que habia desempeñado el padre pasa ahora al hijo. La prueba cs la derrota de Cell, aunque..."

"Gohan's anger finally releases all his latent power and the moment he overcomes the powerful supersaiyano barrier is precisely cstc. Reach a superior form of a powerful second level of supersaiyano, in this phase, the young Gohan becomes a guemero whose power surpasses that of Goku and this fact is very significant for the course of history. The role of protector of the Earth that had played the father now passes to the son. The test cs the defeat of Cell, although ..."

#3: A third time El Manga Legendario implies that Gohan had more power due to his latent power being released from his anger which resulted in general in Ssj2:



"Cegado por la ira, Gohan muestra por fin su verdadero poder. Pero en vez de hinchársele los músculos como a Vegeta, apenas cambia de aspecto a pesar de que su fuerza resulta muy avasalladora y su estilo de combate se acerca a la forma perfecta. Su carácter deja de ser apacible para pasar a ser agresivo y no deja a Cell ni un momento de respiro. Sin embargo, cometió un error al acorralar al androide mas de lo necesario"

"Blinded by anger, Gohan finally shows his true power. But instead of swelling his muscles like Vegeta, he hardly changes his appearance despite the fact that his strength is very overwhelming and his combat style is close to the perfect form. His character stops being peaceful to become aggressive and does not leave Cell a moment of respite. However, he made a mistake in cornering the android more than necessary"

#4: Yet again Gohan's anger having an effect on him is further mentioned:



"Gohan duda sobre si desplegar toda su ira. Entonces aparece el androide A-16, al que Cell casi habia destruido, ayudado por Mister Satán. Las palabras del A-16 y el acto de Cell al destruirlo sin piedad despiertan su fuerza latente y Gohan se transforma finalmente en un supersaiyano de segundo nivel Acaba de un plumazo con todos los Cell Juniors y despliega un poder apabullante frente a Cell. Acorralado el androide del doctor Gero planea autodestruirse y llevarse pur delante Gohan y al resto de los luchadores. Para salvar a la Tierra, Goku decide llevarse a Cell al planeta de naio. Aunque cumple su dificil cometido con éxito, ello le cuesta la vida La ira de Gohantambión cambia su carácter. Cuan- do Goku le dice que lo remate, Gohan le replica que quiere hacerle sufrir más. Una actitud inonmprensi ble para alguien que antes detestaba luchar."

"Gohan hesitates on whether to deploy all his anger. Then appears the android A-16, which Cell had almost destroyed, aided by Mister Satan. The words of the A-16 and the act of Cell to destroy it mercilessly arouse their latent strength and Gohan is finally transformed into a supersaiyano second level Just a stroke with all the Cell Juniors and deploys an overwhelming power in front of Cell. Cornered Dr. Gero's droid plans to self-destruct and take pur in front of Gohan and the rest of the fighters. To save the Earth, Goku decides to take Cell to the planet of Naio. Although he accomplishes his difficult task successfully, it costs him his life. Gohantambion's anger changes its character. When Goku tells him to finish it, Gohan replies that he wants to make him suffer more. An unavoidable attitude for someone who once hated to fight."

#5: Daizenshuu SPECIFIES that Gohan's latent power was released during his fight with cell as a Ssj2 due to anger. It mainly mentions the words "Full Power" and "Latent Power":

Scan 1:



Translated:



Scan 2:



Translated:



Exactly, it's his LATENT power. However, because he couldn't arm himself with anger, Nor did he train to MAINTAIN that power, his Buu Saga Ssj2 is not his full power Ssj2. This is furthered in El Manga Legendario, where they state that Gohan's HIDDEN power is not even diminished, the same one EXPLAINED about Cell Saga Gohan:



"De niño, Gohan luchó contra Cell con una fuerza superior a la de su padre. Sin embargo, parece que como no ha vuelto a luchar su nivel ha ido bajando poco a poco. Comparado con Goku y Vegeta, que han Continuado Con su entrenamiento, su fuerza es una sombra de lo que era. Aun así, su poder latente no ha mermado ni un ápice, y hasta Vegeta reconoce que no sabe lo que podría pasar si la ira lo cegara. Como va a participar en el Gran Torneo de las Artes Marciales, decide volver a los entrenamientos, pero..."

"As a child, Gohan fought Cell with a strength superior to that of his father. However, it seems that since he has not returned to fight his level has been falling little by little. Compared to Goku and Vegeta, who have continued with their training, their strength is a shadow of what it was. Even so, his latent power has not diminished a bit, and even Vegeta recognizes that he does not know what could happen if anger blinded him. As he is going to participate in the Great Martial Arts Tournament, he decides to return to training, but ..."

Also, before you say this contradicts me, no you're wrong. Gohan got in general weaker since as a Ssj2, yes he's far weaker than before. Note that the description later on, supported by the placed images, revolves mainly around Super Saiyan 2 (we'll be mentioning later on).

The title says this, based on his performance against Dabura, Vegeta's statement and Gohan's skills which has been completely gone:

"Su habilidad para la lucha se ha oxidado?"

"Your fighting ability has rusted?"

Kaioshin then says that it's even far beyond what he imagined of Gohan's powers. He wonders whether he can "stop" such a power.

So no you're wrong. Also, Daizenshuu 2 never said that he didn't go Ssj2 against Gohan, because it into notes his first appearance. That means little to nothing

Gohan was indeed not using all of his power, he admited so prior to fighting Boo:
Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P3.5-7
Context: after Kaioshin says they must run from Boo
Gohan: “…Is that so?...He really does have tremendous ki, but…It doesn’t seem like so much so that there’s nothing I can do…[ ] …If I can only put out all of my true power…”

The reason for this is that he isn't mad enough to power up:
Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P3.1-2
Context: as Gohan remembers Goku’s advice to get angry
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

That's the case. Gohan However DOESN'T NEED to be angry to Go Ssj2

Gohan goes Ssj2 WITHOUT being angry. He was completely calm and keeping his cool.

Ssj2 transformation can be achieved by regular training:

~2
First Appearance: chapter 408
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks
Special features: This form has power that surpasses Super Saiya-jin in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form from his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it from harsh training.

It doesn't require anger at all. Gohan's Ssj2 in the Cell Saga was different since it released his LATENT POWER, not just a set multiplier.

That's why, Daizenshuu 2 also states that Gohan hasn't gotten weaker at all since before:



Despite having Ssj2 Gohan Buu Saga inferior to Ssj2 Gohan Cell Games

And this is supported.

Gohan didn't train after the Cell Games, so the only way he could transform was by getting enraged. His transformation as a SSJ2 was an outlier and was later retconed, as evidenced by Shin implying the Gohan he paralyzed wasn't at full power:
Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being so tough
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

This in no way is an outlier. Like explained above, there's difference between Ssj2 Gohan Buu Saga and Ssj2 Gohan from the Cell Games.

Resisting Paralysis Arts is no crazy feat at all:

Kaioshin stops Gohan using one of his abilities:



Now before telling me that this means Kaioshin is above Gohan, let's check things out behind it.

Kaioshin used "Paralysis Arts". Sure it is stronger when it comes to paralyzing a character the better a character controls it, which is hinted in Daizenshuu by referencing Kaioshin's ability as being "so powerful" compared to the other users:

Daizenshuu 4 hinting it:





Daizenshuu 7 (Raw Japanese Page):



Daizenshuu 7 in French mentioning it:



Daizenshuu 7 Translation:



Paralysis Arts
First Appearance: Chapter 77
Category: special
People: Jacky Chun, General Blue, Chaozu, Gurudo, Kaioshin
Special Characteristics: A technique that prevents the opponent from moving their body. Depending on the user, the method of using it and its effect are completely different. General Blue’s version was only effective against a single opponent. It took effect when his opponent stared into his eyes. Chaozu held out both his hands, causing stomach pain in the targeted person that stopped them from moving. Jacky’s technique was said to poke a pressure point on the forehead, paralyzing the person’s motor nerves. Gurudo stopped Krillin and Son Gohan’s movement through psychokinesis that he fired from his hands, and his version was effective against multiple people. Also, Kaioshin’s technique was a powerful one that completely stopped Super Saiya-jin Gohan from moving. (Daizenshuu 2, pp.205-206/Daizenshuu 4, p.69, 117)

Basically, It can be resisted and not resisted regardless, depending on the character's ability. Nappa resisted Chaozu's Paralysis Art:









Those same abilities worked on Base Form Goku when he was going to fight Beerus as Monaka:











So resisting Paralysis Arts is not a reference to power, which is an inconsistent argument from Kaioshin. However, Gohan Super Saiyan 2 isn't

Also, Gohan was holding back Ssj2 against Kibito, but it was higher than Ssj Enraged.

Kibito and Kaioshin sensed Enraged Ssj Gohan:



Yet that was still nothing to what was mentioned later on:

Also, the final nail in the coffin: The artwork. Just compare Gohan when he fought Dabra to both forms Gohan showed by the Budokai:

SSJ Gohan
[spoiler][/spoiler]

SSJ2 Gohan
[spoiler][/spoiler]

SSJ2 Gohan?
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Dragon Ball has a lot of inconsistences, and the Boo Arc is pretty much the peak of it. The artwork, however, is consistent during the hole manga, and Toriyama rarely makes mistakes with the difference between the SSJ forms besides a panel or two from far away.

Actually based on your scans Gohan looks exactly like Ssj2 but missing the sparks, hinting for it to be Ssj2, but drawing sparks is tiring on its own.

Art differences is the weakest evidence and has little to no relevance when it comes to factual material.

Multiple factual material > artwork which could very well be inconsistent.

Sharp Ssj2 Aura flows around Grade 2 Super Saiyan and Grade 3 as well.

Using Artwork is the last thing to rely on, since direct feats and factual material > simple concept of an artwork.

There are scans where Ssj2 have no electricity. It mainly is a feature but that in no way debunks anything. This is the inconsistent thing actually, as in the Anime it's interpreted as a Ssj2. Same for Daizenshuu and all other guides.

Yeah, i already know Shin >> Piccolo. That's pretty straightforward. Nothing implies Piccolo is anywhere near Shin, though.

What implies Picoclo > Base Gohan? Gohan is the one who suggests fighting in base, and Dabra calls Gohan "Marvelous energy" but says Piccolo is trash.

That would suggest that Piccolo in the Buu Saga who's supposedly above his Cell Saga counterpart is weaker than Cell games Gohan, which is wrong and makes no sense considering that his performance in Anime and Manga Implification was impressive enough to put him above base Saiyans in the Cell games.

Cell Juniors = Perfect Cell, or at the least the one who stomped Gohan, stated in Daizenshuu directly and El Manga Legendario, and other probable guides.

Yakona actually had Goku on his toes the whole fight and Gohan thought he and Goku should fight together. But why are you bringin this anyway? I never said Pocus was a match for Base Saiyans, lol.

I'm not saying you are. This is for another issue regarding Yakon vs Base Saiyans all in comparison to their bases, as to say that they're above Piccolo who Dabura simply sensed their regular base forms. Also, Goku manhandled Yakon at the end, Yakon was simply losing. The Anime quite supported that. Gohan considering it is a misinterpretation of his own

Cell is the next tier above SSJ Goku. Had Pocus and Yakon been >> CG Goku i'd be wiser to compare then to Cell instead of Goku. However, neither of them received any praise and were just killed off and forgotten.

Not necessarily. For them to be killed that way and forgotten means they are absolute fodder to the Saiyans such as Vegeta and Goku. Perfect Cell is far beyond Goku in the Cell games, so as I showed, you can fit many power houses between their gap. Only Dabura is notable there.

What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with my argument.

Could you explain what do you mean? Because you probably messed the point of this

If you think Gohan didn't lose any power, then that means CG Gohan > SSJ CG Goku. Such a gargantuan gap is ludicrous, Gohan would instantly know he's stronger than his father and Goku, who like you said, understimated Cell and did not know he was holding back tons of power, wouldn't think he needs Gohan's latent power to save the world. He think just Gohan's regular SSJ power is enough.

That was never the case if I may understand from you. Goku placed his bets on Gohan's latent potential, given his astronomical latent power.

Goku completely depended on that:





There's no contradiction to it. If your argument has no support, but you simply disagree with it for no concrete reason, then your argument would fall apart anyways.

That's for difference reasons though. Nappa's portrayed as the bulky one to be hyped, making the reader think Nappa's the strongest one before it's revealed it's actually Vegeta. Gohan portrayed as thinner than his Boo Arc self to show how laughably weaker he is.

Gohan Never got weaker. I'll cover this up in another thread and debate later on after this comment

Could you post the statement?

This too will be for another thread

Aside from the first scene of the movie showing the Galaxy disappearing, nothing implies Broly is that strong.

North Kaio: Mm. He’s already finished tearing up the Southern Galaxy, and appears to be after my Northern Galaxy next [...] First go check the Southern Galaxy.

Kaio telling Goku to check the South Galaxy implies that albeit damaged, the Galaxy is still there. That can mean civilization, and Herms agrees:

On that note, after Goku thinks to himself that Broli is the one who "destroyed" the Southern Galaxy, he shortly thereafter semi-repeats himself, saying that Broli is the Super Saiyan who "ran riot through" the Southern Galaxy. So it seems like all this makes the most sense if we treat "destroy" in this context as meaning that Broli attacked/laid waste/etc the Southern Galaxy. That is, he just went from planet to planet destroying the civilizations there, leaving ruined planets like the one Goku visits for a bit. The only thing that seems to indicate that he literally wiped it out completely is the opening shot of the spiral galaxy thingy dissolving into blackness, but this doesn't jibe too well with what we see/are told throughout the rest of the movie.

The funny thing is, for Broly to do that in his lifespan, supposedly destroying millions of galaxies, like showcased (which you haven't covered at all, and simply said there isn't proof which alone on its own is not reliable), he'd have to be Multi-Galaxy+ at least, which cell is nowhere near.

That galaxy disappearing is one galaxy in the southern quadrant of the universe not the entire area. A quadrant of a universe has billions of galaxies, so if there are few planets out there, then IT'S STILL CONSIDERED destroyed, because few planets and probably galaxies are nothing to a quadrant.

What herms is interpreting tells nothing about Broly being weaker than what's shown or anything, and leaves my argument unphased

I didn't say the quadrant was destroyed, but it was almost so.

Furthermore, it's also stated on one of the quotes you posted from Daizenshuu 6 that Bojack wrecked havoc trought the universe, even though the Galaxies are intact. When Goku searchs throught the Galaxy, it's also possible to see lots of planets and stars:
https://youtu.be/rpHdgn3UaBc?t=6m4s

Yet again, you don't seem to realize that stars and planets mean NOTHING to a quadrant at all. There's no argument here

More from Herms:

Also, a bit more on what the movie means by "destroy": it's said that Broli "attacked" Planet Shamo, after which its inhabitants were moved to New Planet Vegeta. But Planet Shamo is clearly still physically there, since we see Broli actually blow it up midway through the movie. This seems consistent with the idea that Broli went around attacking planets by destroying the cities/civilizations on them, rather than blowing them up Freeza-style.

I don't know why you're trying to use Herms as if his interpretations are factual, but regardless this doesn't destroy my point at all

You seemingly ignored almost all of what I wrote and assumed that I have the same reasoning most other fans who argue wrongly have. That Video holds no credibility as it fails to realize the size of a galaxy and leaves out the information about how big a DBZ quadrant is. It also assumes that Movies take part in the canon material and that they scale the same.

It's almost assumptions and failed attempts to prove something wrong.

Cell doesn't compare to Broly whatsoever.