The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[nickzambuto]

Nothing.
Zeno can bust the multiverse but he can't even see Dyspo move.

In order to bust the solar system, Cell's Kamehameha would have to reach the edge in relatively short order. Ki dissipates not long after it leaves the user.

If Cell is a solar system buster and Namek Saga Frieza is arguably star level, then Super Perfect Cell would have to be at least over 3000x stronger and faster than 100% Frieza from Namek. That's because that's how much more weight the entire solar system has over the sun.

Whenever someone gets more powerful they usually also get faster as well (Zeno is an exception due to being a non-fighter) since both stats are ki based.

I buy it. Yardrat Goku was already many times stronger than Trunks who was many times stronger than Freeza. The three years of training probably did a lot more than we realize. Then from SSJ1 to SSJ2 is so many orders of magnitude.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

EoZ Goku vs Pure Boo

I should have worded myself better back then. Although i don't think Goku > Boo, i do think they are on the same vicinity. Nothing implies Goku was far, far above Pure Boo only in base. Your argument behind it is Oob being surprised that Goku can fly, what means absolutely nothing. Goten couldn't fly but Freeza could, and we know Goten is >>> Freeza even in base.

Daizenshuu issue about Gohan's form

All the Daizenshuus hold the same value, the Daizenshuu 7 is only better known because it's a general Dragon Ball encyclopedia.

What are you trying to say, exactly? Rage is exactly what pushes Gohan and makes him transform. None of the scans you posted imply Gohan received a rage boost on the top of Super Saiyan 2. It just says Gohan got enraged and unlocked the transformation. To say Gohan had any extra power on the top of his Super Saiyan 2 is just conjecture. SSJ2 is a consequence of Gohan's rage and latent power, just like Super Saiyan was unlocked by Goku's rage and power.

The SSJ2 is a fix multiplier. If SSJ2 Gohan is weaker than he used to be, then all of Gohan's forms are weaker.

The Daizenshuu 2 would have shown a "37+" or a "37-38" on the volume number if Gohan used SSJ2 after the volume, like it did with other characters that lasted more than a single volume:

About Gohan being able to transform into Super Saiyan 2 at will

He sure does need angry. Gohan says he isn't angry enough to transform, and Goku needed to train Super Saiyan to transform at will:


Him transforming clearly is an outlier. Gohan did not train at all after the Cell Games, so for him to be able to transform is inconsistent.

Why did you bring up the Paralysis Arts? I never said anything about that at all, lmao. The point of the statement i posted is that Shin thinks Gohan wasn't at full power when he paralyzed him.

Artwork issue

He clearly looks different. SSJ2 has sparks and a sharper aura, whereas SSJ has a calm, sparkless aura. Here's a picture showing the full difference between both forms, with a Super Saiyan standing in front of a Super Saiyan 2:

Goku clearly displays a furious aura with sparks, while Vegeta doesn't, just like Gohan doesn't with Dabra.

You are just assuming the art can be inconsistent, but you show no proof or whatsoever and relies on the story (That you assume it's consistent) despite the contradictory evidence. The story might imply Gohan was a SSJ2 according to the evidence you brought, but there's also evidence that Gohan was a SSJ story wise. The artwork never shows any contradiction about Gohan's form against Dabra.

Those scans are the huge minority, and even when they don't show sparks they do have furious aura and, on the case of the full color manga, the yellow aura:

That would suggest that Piccolo in the Buu Saga who's supposedly above his Cell Saga counterpart is weaker than Cell games Gohan, which is wrong and makes no sense considering that his performance in Anime and Manga Implification was impressive enough to put him above base Saiyans in the Cell games.

Cell Juniors = Perfect Cell, or at the least the one who stomped Gohan, stated in Daizenshuu directly and El Manga Legendario, and other probable guides.

Nothing implies Piccolo gained any power between Cell Games and Boo Arc. Training doesn't mean gains, training can be a way of only maintaing power.

What suggests Piccolo is above the Base Saiyans? Last time i checked nobody thought Piccolo was anything special, and Boo Arc implies Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are above Piccolo in base.

I'm not saying you are. This is for another issue regarding Yakon vs Base Saiyans all in comparison to their bases, as to say that they're above Piccolo who Dabura simply sensed their regular base forms. Also, Goku manhandled Yakon at the end, Yakon was simply losing. The Anime quite supported that. Gohan considering it is a misinterpretation of his own

Manhandled? Yakon actually dropped his guard because he didn't think Goku could track him on the dark, and all Goku did was land a kick on Yakon. Back on Babidi's ship Yakon had Goku on his toes.

Could you explain what do you mean? Because you probably messed the point of this

I was talking about how your chain ends up with Base Gohan > SSJ Goku, what is impossible.

That was never the case if I may understand from you. Goku placed his bets on Gohan's latent potential, given his astronomical latent power.

Goku completely depended on that:

Image

Image

There's no contradiction to it. If your argument has no support, but you simply disagree with it for no concrete reason, then your argument would fall apart anyways.

That's exactly what i'm saying. Goku thought only Gohan's latent power could save them, what makes the possibility of Gohan having a gargantuan advantage over Goku sound impossible. Gohan also doesn't know Goku is weaker than him despite interacting a whole year with him, what makes the kid looks dumb if Gohan was like tenfolds above Goku.

Broly thing

The universe of Dragon Ball (At least on the movies) is divided by galaxies, not by quadrants. Broly attacked the South Galaxy, so at best he destroyed a galaxy, not multiple galaxies. The Galaxy was attacked, that doesn't mean it was completely gone as Goku saw lots of planets while traveling the galaxy, contradicting the opening of the movie. Wrecking havoc throught

I'm quoting Herms because he thinks the same way i do. I'm just making my words the same as his.

[dragon boss z]

Goten couldn't fly but Freeza could, and we know Goten is >>> Freeza even in base.

Um what? There is ample evidence to argue even ssj Goten is weaker than Frieza and you think base Goten is >>> Frieza? Even with a direct statement of base Goku being weaker than Frieza. I could see maybe saying Goku was suppressed and debating that ssj Goten is a good deal above Frieza, both of which I disagree with, but saying Goten when he couldn't fly was >>> Frieza makes absolutely no sense. It makes about as much sense as me saying the farmer with a shotgun could of actually beat Raditz.
And saying we all know? I can almost guarantee if I made a thread of base Goten before he could fly vs Frieza on comic vine it would get insta locked for being a mismatch. Probably even if it was first form Frieza let alone 100% Frieza.

The issue here is that Goku is referencing a Character stronger than him in general regardless. This has been already stated and implied, so you cannot try and deny it.

Ya, rage Gohan.

Gohan was never impressed by Goku in the first place:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Gohan is not impressed at all by Goku.

You are twisting that scan. Gohan doesn't say he isn't impressed, he says Goku is great but he doesn't think what he is seeing is amazing. Goku could be even with Gohan and that line would still make sense.

No one says Gohan is astronomically above Goku. But Gohan is stronger alright.

Maybe a little, but Goku would still win in a fight.

Please reread the scans if you mind:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Now reread what's stated before:

[spoiler]









[/spoiler]

I did read them. I already showed that even after this Cell admitted he still thought Goku was a greater challenge and Goku admitted he was banking on Gohan's hidden power, not current.

It's too much obvious that Gohan is stronger. You are taking these statements beyond what they actually mean.

Full power Gohan, but not regular Gohan. And you have to keep in mind that Goku saw a glimpse of ssj2 Gohan already in the ROSAT, though that may of been anime only.

The Manga shows this too, where Goku asks Gohan, and when he answers that, everyone asks whether Goku is right or not. When Gohan powered up, Cell concluded that what Goku said isn't entirely wrong at all:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

The part where Goku wasn't right about, is BEING STRONGER than Cell. That's why earlier on he was annoyed by it:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This is further proven by King Kai that Gohan might have surpassed even Goku:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

And Compare then with the context please from the Manga

Yes, and I already told you even after all that, Cell said Goku was still better as he wanted to fight Goku again and not Gohan.

Wrong. You're actually supporting me. The entire battle Gohan had the upper advantage.

Um what. Cell stomped Gohan and his fight was much shorter than Goku and Goku got much better hits in.

Cell used even MORE speed against Gohan. Cell was always holding back against Goku, to the point where he recommends Goku to eat a senzu bean:

Cell said he was going to use more speed on Gohan, but there is no proof he wasn't using that speed on Goku as well.

Cell realized that Gohan is superior to Goku, thus he increased his speed.

Gohan handled Cell far better than Goku until Cell increased his strength even more and beat him up.

Cell only powered up after Gohan went ssj2. Him saying he was going to speed up was him just stopping his playing, he didn't power up his power level at all, or at least it wasn't stated.

That line is General actually. Here's the same guide:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Spanish Text

Gohan y Goku se entrenaron para el Cell Game. Al ser una mezcla de saiyano y terricola, Gohan tenía desde pequeno una gran fuerza de combate, como pudieron comprobar dos rivales de la talla de Vegeta y Freezer. Ha adquirido una fuerza que sorprende incluso a su propio padre. A pesar de ello, como su naturaleza no es precisamente guerrera, a veces le cuesta desplegar ese poder. Aunque durante su enfrentamiento con Cell sacó a relucir su inexperiencia, finalmente lo derrotó y logró salvar a la Tierra.

Gohan encaja los ataques de Cell como si nada. Su despliegue de poder sorprendió a todo el mundo.

English Text:

Gohan and Goku trained for the Cell Game. Being a mixture of Saiyano and Earthling, Gohan had a great fighting force since he was a child, as two rivals such as Vegeta and Frieza could verify. He has acquired a strength that surprises even his own father. Despite this, as his nature is not exactly warrior, sometimes it costs him to deploy that power. Although during his confrontation with Cell brought out his inexperience, finally defeated him and managed to save the Earth.

Gohan fits Cell's attacks like nothing. His display of power surprised everyone.

Gohan is simply inexperienced and doesn't like fighting, which makes him unable to put out his real amount of power (besides his potential).

Gohan > Goku both cell saga is an established fact. You can't say no to what the main sources say.

That scan is clearly talking about ssj2. It even mentions how he defeated Cell with that power, which was ssj2.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I should have worded myself better back then. Although i don't think Goku > Boo, i do think they are on the same vicinity. Nothing implies Goku was far, far above Pure Boo only in base. Your argument behind it is Oob being surprised that Goku can fly, what means absolutely nothing. Goten couldn't fly but Freeza could, and we know Goten is >>> Freeza even in base.

All the Daizenshuus hold the same value, the Daizenshuu 7 is only better known because it's a general Dragon Ball encyclopedia.

What are you trying to say, exactly? Rage is exactly what pushes Gohan and makes him transform. None of the scans you posted imply Gohan received a rage boost on the top of Super Saiyan 2

All these scans prove that Gohan's anger gave him arave boost. This rage boost is actually the basis of his latent power. Ssj2 transformation was unlocked due to his anger, but the power he gained wasn't a set multiplier. You're barely giving any valuable refutes and hardly have any arguments, and you're only saying "I disagree, so this is wrong". This is unreliable. With this, since you're basically showing almost nothing, I'd only have to say that my argument stands unphased

It just says Gohan got enraged and unlocked the transformation. To say Gohan had any extra power on the top of his Super Saiyan 2 is just conjecture. SSJ2 is a consequence of Gohan's rage and latent power, just like Super Saiyan was unlocked by Goku's rage and power.

Ssj2 can be achieved with regular training:



Gohan However, with anger, resulted in his latent power to be released. His latent power =/= Ssj2 Multiplier. This is heavily noted

You ignoring this holds absolutely no relevance. It's a confirmed issue, proven by all these guides that the anger has given him Ssj2 and his latent power to be released.

Ssj2 is not form achieved by Anger originally

Despite this Gohan went Ssj2 against Dabura, yet Goku still tells Gohan to GET angry and release the power he used Against Cell, meaning Goku is differentiating his latent power with any transformation. It's clear as day, anything more is absolutely useless.

The SSJ2 is a fix multiplier. If SSJ2 Gohan is weaker than he used to be, then all of Gohan's forms are weaker.

This is all based on your assumption, and the fact that you ignored every source just so that it satisfies your beliefs. Gohan has been stated to have never gotten weaker in the same guide which mentions that Gohan as Ssj2 is weaker than his Cell Games counterpart. This makes sense with my argument completely, and correlates with other guides. Nowhere was
in the has it been stated that Gohan gotten weaker until his Ssj2 form was in place.

The Daizenshuu 2 would have shown a "37+" or a "37-38" on the volume number if Gohan used SSJ2 after the volume, like it did with other characters that lasted more than a single volume:

Your examples hold no value whatsoever, as you're still speculating. The fact that Daizenshuu hasn't mentioned anything about it in that category, doesn't mean in anyway that we should assume it means somethiby else. we follow what's been given to us, not invent something else. By this actually, the Daizenshuu would be contradicting itself, and other guides such as El Manga Legendario which implies Gohan was a Ssj2 Against Dabura, as well as contradicts the Manga and Anime.

He sure does need angry. Gohan says he isn't angry enough to transform, and Goku needed to train Super Saiyan to transform at will:

What? Gohan casually transforms in the Tournament into Ssj2:

[spoiler]





[/spoiler]

Him transforming clearly is an outlier. Gohan did not train at all after the Cell Games, so for him to be able to transform is inconsistent.

Ssj2, again, is not a form which is achieved by Anger. Unlike Regular Ssj, which was originally thought to have been only unlocked by Anger:

Why did you bring up the Paralysis Arts? I never said anything about that at all, lmao. The point of the statement i posted is that Shin thinks Gohan wasn't at full power when he paralyzed him.

Then regardless that actually further supports me of Gohan = Ssj2 and Dabura being equal to Super Perfect Cell. A Holding Back Ssj2 Gohan is superior to an enraged Ssj by far, and that was holding back.

He clearly looks different. SSJ2 has sparks and a sharper aura, whereas SSJ has a calm, sparkless aura. Here's a picture showing the full difference between both forms, with a Super Saiyan standing in front of a Super Saiyan 2:

Goku clearly displays a furious aura with sparks, while Vegeta doesn't, just like Gohan doesn't with Dabra.

You are just assuming the art can be inconsistent, but you show no proof or whatsoever and relies on the story (That you assume it's consistent) despite the contradictory evidence

You gave no credibility behind any of your arguments to suggest they even compare with the evidence directly from the Manga, Anime and Guides. That's denying the evidence infornt of us, which would make the artwork inconsistent as one piece of evidence would hold no candle against other factual material, and many of them at that.

Here is a Ssj2:



Another instances:





It's clear that from a writing perspective it was always meant to be Ssj2, and that is what's been shown to us in the entire Manga and Anime besides artwork. My argument stands
unrefuted

The story might imply Gohan was a SSJ2 according to the evidence you brought, but there's also evidence that Gohan was a SSJ story wise. The artwork never shows any contradiction about Gohan's form against Dabra.

You don't judge what's an outlier and what's Not based on your own mutual standpoint. If you have no evidence, proof or powerful argument to support yourself then all that business will be useless. The evidence from the Manga and Anime I'm Using guides far surpasses that of Ssj, which is all enough to say he was Ssj2

Here's an example of a Super Saiyan with sparks:



It's stated in Daizenshuu and El Manga Legendario that he is a Regular Super Saiyan:

Those scans are the huge minority, and even when they don't show sparks they do have furious aura and, on the case of the full color manga, the yellow aura:

You know what's funnier, Grade 2 and Grade 3 Super Saiyans has furious aura, and sometimes regular Ssj even:



So no you're wrong. Art isn't consistent completely, and can be inconsistent if it's contradicted

Nothing implies Piccolo gained any power between Cell Games and Boo Arc. Training doesn't mean gains, training can be a way of only maintaing power.

Piccolo obviously trained to get stronger and he did get stronger. We don't know how much though, but he did get stronger either way, and that's not arguable.

What suggests Piccolo is above the Base Saiyans? Last time i checked nobody thought Piccolo was anything special, and Boo Arc implies Goku, Vegeta and Gohan are above Piccolo in base.

Buu Saga Base Goku > Kaioshin = Ssj Goku Cell Games > Piccolo

Don't compare Buu Saga tiers to Piccolo.

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; yais a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

Manga is vague about Piccolo fighting the Cell Juniors, so Anime is much clearer. Piccolo held his own against a cell junior (he caught the rest off guard or by surprise)

Manhandled? Yakon actually dropped his guard because he didn't think Goku could track him on the dark, and all Goku did was land a kick on Yakon. Back on Babidi's ship Yakon had Goku on his toes.

Yes, manhandled. Goku's base attacks are stronger than Yakon's. Heck, Goku dodged his attacks even, Goku wasn't even shown serious. Yakon despite seeing in the dark couldn't do anything to Goku regardless and thought he can see.

I do see your point at first:





But then Goku would have underestimated him and didn't know about his ability to cut others. Gohan even said Goku can handle him on his own.

Gohan changed his mind when he learned Yakon can suck Light Energy which could prove dangerous and that's all:





Goku's attack blitzed Yakon, and he dodged him casually.

I was talking about how your chain ends up with Base Gohan > SSJ Goku, what is impossible.

It's a contradiction for Gohan which I noted. Not for Goku and Vegeta, though.

That's exactly what i'm saying. Goku thought only Gohan's latent power could save them, what makes the possibility of Gohan having a gargantuan advantage over Goku sound impossible. Gohan also doesn't know Goku is weaker than him despite interacting a whole year with him, what makes the kid looks dumb if Gohan was like tenfolds above Goku.

Sorry but its been implied Gohan is Stronger either way. For Gohan not to figure that out is not major at all. Gohan represents Goku, his father, as some sort of unbeatable figure when it comes between them. He would never imagine he'd surpass Goku. Goku told him that he'll make him surpass him, but he never bought it. The rest is simply interpretations with no back up.

The universe of Dragon Ball (At least on the movies) is divided by galaxies, not by quadrants. Broly attacked the South Galaxy, so at best he destroyed a galaxy, not multiple galaxies. The Galaxy was attacked, that doesn't mean it was completely gone as Goku saw lots of planets while traveling the galaxy, contradicting the opening of the movie. Wrecking havoc throught

Sorry but no. That's you speculating it. The entire show states that The DBZ universe consists of quadrants, represented by the words "galaxies", despite the translation leaning towards the word "areas".

Even the guide implies that it's multiple galaxies

But you know what? Even without that, he's far beyond Cell, because to have time to shatter most of the galaxy in Goku's life span, being a Solar system buster only is nowhere near enough.

I'm quoting Herms because he thinks the same way i do. I'm just making my words the same as his.

Ok.

As for the upper part of your reply, you ignored almost everything and simply disagreed, so I take it you agree to disagree? Either way, my points stand still

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Ya, rage Gohan.

Wow, you're playing with words now. It says his power as a Super Saiyan in general, so latent power and regular Super Saiyan

You are twisting that scan. Gohan doesn't say he isn't impressed, he says Goku is great but he doesn't think what he is seeing is amazing. Goku could be even with Gohan and that line would still make sense

No one is twisting anything. In fact, you're contradicting yourself heavily. "Great" doesn't equate to amazing. That line wouldn't make sense since Gohan implies this is not impressive at all, meaning in comparison Gohan is hiding strength exceeding that, that's why later on Goku says Gohan is comparing Goku's Power to his own and all

Maybe a little, but Goku would still win in a fight.

Yes Goku might win due to having more experience and knowledge, which is admitted that Gohan shows inexperience against Cell and he has no lust for battle, withdrawing his intentions in a fight back.

I did read them. I already showed that even after this Cell admitted he still thought Goku was a greater challenge and Goku admitted he was banking on Gohan's hidden power, not current.

It's evident that Gohan Is Stronger based on even Vegeta's reaction, being even more shocked about Gohan:



Cell completely underestimated Gohan further. He was pissed off when Goku told him Gohan is Stronger than him. This is quite evident from his reaction. Cell was trying to finish him very soon:



Yet Gohan blocked his attacks like nothing, and dodged him casually, but Cell got angrier and speeded further more. Cell then attacked Gohan and everything, yet Gohan comes back with nothing on his mind, with his Ki unphased at all:



Despite being attacked seriously:



This same "real speed" made Goku done for. Cell recommended Goku to fight him before even taking a senzu. Cell is far superior to Goku in every possible aspect, but Cell wanted to enjoy his battle with Goku, due Goku having higher experience and also enjoys fighting. Cell didn't like the idea of fighting a kid which is evident by his reaction fighting Gohan.

Cell is completely shocked of Gohan surviving his serious attack:



Cell gets even more concerned when Gohan claims he doesn'twant to kill cell:



Gohan explains for him his latent potential, and cell starts stomping him better better than anything he's done:



Gohan withstands attacks which Goku was getting destroyed from. Cell wanted Goku to eat a senzu and still beat him up, that's what he's enjoying. Cell is far superior to Goku, again.

Gohan attacked a fired-up Cell, which Goku couldn't even hold a candle against at the end:







The only main reason cell beat him up afterwards was because if his experience outsmarting Gohan into cornering him:







Gohan > Goku.

Full power Gohan, but not regular Gohan. And you have to keep in mind that Goku saw a glimpse of ssj2 Gohan already in the ROSAT, though that may of been anime only.

That's exactly what we mean when we say Ssj Gohan Cell Games .__. Gohan mastered his Ssj form here, and he's using it (which is full power super saiyan)

Yes, and I already told you even after all that, Cell said Goku was still better as he wanted to fight Goku again and not Gohan.

Explained above. It would simply be about enjoyment, Goku's experience and similarity with him in fighting, and simply that he wants to fight Goku either way. He also underestimated Gohan, and hated the idea as he's still a kid

Um what. Cell stomped Gohan and his fight was much shorter than Goku and Goku got much better hits in

He held his own against a stronger cell better than Goku did. Goku vs Cell was mostly both of these characters gagging with each other in fighting and tension, that's all, unlike Gohan vs Cell which began serious from the start. Also shown above

Cell said he was going to use more speed on Gohan, but there is no proof he wasn't using that speed on Goku as well.

That speed Ce'll used before the "real" speed of cell is referenced to be Cell trying to beat Gohan as fast as he can despite having said that he agrees with Goku on Gohan being above him strength wise. So by that logic there's no say he'd use it with Goku, since this evidence suggests he never did use it with Goku

Cell only powered up after Gohan went ssj2. Him saying he was going to speed up was him just stopping his playing, he didn't power up his power level at all, or at least it wasn't stated.

That's merely an assumption based on absolutely nothing, given it's also contradicted by the main sources. Cell increased his speed to blitz Gohan, it wasnt a lie

That scan is clearly talking about ssj2. It even mentions how he defeated Cell with that power, which was ssj2.

It clearly talks about both lmao. It's talking about the picture shown, which is Ssj Gohan not Ssj2. Only at the end does it say Ssj2 ONLY BECAUSE it was talking about How Gohan's latent power can beat cell. But it also shows how Ssj Gohan is above Goku.

[dragon boss z]

Wow, you're playing with words now. It says his power as a Super Saiyan in general, so latent power and regular Super Saiyan

I showed the scan to someone else previously. Goku flat out said he only expected Gohan to win with his hidden power.

No one is twisting anything. In fact, you're contradicting yourself heavily. "Great" doesn't equate to amazing.

I never said great meant amazing. I think my comment was lost on you.

That line wouldn't make sense since Gohan implies this is not impressive at all, meaning in comparison Gohan is hiding strength exceeding that, that's why later on Goku says Gohan is comparing Goku's Power to his own and all

Again you are twisting the scan. Gohan didn't imply it wasn't impressive at all. He just said it wasn't amazing. It's not quite the same.

Yes Goku might win due to having more experience and knowledge, which is admitted that Gohan shows inexperience against Cell and he has no lust for battle, withdrawing his intentions in a fight back.

I could agree with this. I do think ssj Gohan may be a bit above Goku, but as long as you agree Goku would win via experience we pretty much agree

That's merely an assumption based on absolutely nothing, given it's also contradicted by the main sources. Cell increased his speed to blitz Gohan, it wasnt a lie

Frieza also increased his speed on Vegeta without raising his power level. It's like if you are jogging and decide to sprint, that doesn't mean your power level went up, it just means you are trying harder.

It clearly talks about both lmao. It's talking about the picture shown, which is Ssj Gohan not Ssj2. Only at the end does it say Ssj2 ONLY BECAUSE it was talking about How Gohan's latent power can beat cell. But it also shows how Ssj Gohan is above Goku.

It didn't say it just at the end. It said somewhere in the middle how he used the power to defeat Cell. Either way it isn't enough to confirm anything besides Gohan's true power is above Goku's.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I showed the scan to someone else previously. Goku flat out said he only expected Gohan to win with his hidden power.

Thing is, no one is saying Goku expected him to beat cell that way, but it is evident enough all the time that Gohan even as a Ssj is superior to Goku

I never said great meant amazing. I think my comment was lost on you.

Not really. That's why I said "contradicted yourself". I mainly replied to you when you said that he didn't say he wasn't impressed. However it was implied that he wasn't really impressed. For him to be really "impressed" would not equate to say "he's great" because all the z fighters are Great, but non of them are impressive enough.

Again you are twisting the scan. Gohan didn't imply it wasn't impressive at all. He just said it wasn't amazing. It's not quite the same.

It wasn't amazing, exactly. When he says it isn't amazing, he's also saying he himself isn't amazing? That's kind of cringy to be honest. Any character can say to the opponent stronger than them or equal "amazing". But when they barely credit it then it would mean they're stronger, on a usual basis.

That's why Gohan later on is confirmed to be stronger than Goku later on

I could agree with this. I do think ssj Gohan may be a bit above Goku, but as long as you agree Goku would win via experience we pretty much agree

Well we never issued this from the start, but now that I know then we're on equal terms now

Frieza also increased his speed on Vegeta without raising his power level. It's like if you are jogging and decide to sprint, that doesn't mean your power level went up, it just means you are trying harder.

I still don't understand how do you think this supports you in any possible aspect. Given that Cell speeded up even further, and we proved that Gohan requires faster and a stronger cell than the one who fought Goku, that would still mean Cell was also holding back against Goku heavily, but raised it against Gohan, regardless.

It didn't say it just at the end. It said somewhere in the middle how he used the power to defeat Cell. Either way it isn't enough to confirm anything besides Gohan's true power is above Goku's.

It also confirms that Gohan's performance exceeded that of Goku's, as implied in the second and third line (The third quote implies that Gohan realizes that Cell is inferior to his Latent power based on Cell's performance against Ssj Gohan)

[Noah]

New match:

- Caulifla vs. Zangya

*big images*

Hey mate, mind putting spoiler tags on your posts images? It makes easier for people to scroll this thread.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Caulifla vs. Zangya

Caulifla stomps

Hey mate, mind putting spoiler tags on your posts images? It makes easier for people to scroll this thread.

I'll do so next time. It's just that it doesn't trouble me since I'm replying on my phone, so it doesn't accumulate much space

[dragon boss z]

New match:

- Caulifla vs. Zangya

This is only fare if you are talking about base Caulifla. Zangya seemed to be somewhere around namek Frieza to android tier.

It wasn't amazing, exactly. When he says it isn't amazing, he's also saying he himself isn't amazing? That's kind of cringy to be honest. Any character can say to the opponent stronger than them or equal "amazing". But when they barely credit it then it would mean they're stronger, on a usual basis.

First off Gohan did think he himself wasn't amazing. This was part of Gohan's story arc.
Second off, how would thinking himself not being amazing is cringy? He is just humble and naive.

I still don't understand how do you think this supports you in any possible aspect. Given that Cell speeded up even further, and we proved that Gohan requires faster and a stronger cell than the one who fought Goku, that would still mean Cell was also holding back against Goku heavily, but raised it against Gohan, regardless.

Because unless a character states Cell got stronger or faster than ever before we can't just accept that is true. Cell decided to go faster on Gohan, but we have no idea if he did or didn't use that speed on Goku.

It also confirms that Gohan's performance exceeded that of Goku's, as implied in the second and third line (The third quote implies that Gohan realizes that Cell is inferior to his Latent power based on Cell's performance against Ssj Gohan)

Yes, but when I read that I get the feeling they are talking about ssj2 Gohan. Especially considering Gohan's performance as a ssj1 didn't exceed Goku's, even if he was stronger, his performance was still worse overall. Goku landed much more and better hits.

[TheDipDap1234]

New match:

- Caulifla vs. Zangya

Caulifla would easily destroy her even in her base form.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

First off Gohan did think he himself wasn't amazing. This was part of Gohan's story arc.
Second off, how would thinking himself not being amazing is cringy? He is just humble and naive.

What? He thinks he isn't amazing in comparison to Goku if anything. He's the youngest Ssj ever, and actually is proud of it while explaining it to Goten. In the Anime they even portray himself to be a prodigy of some sort, downgrading Goten completely. For Gohan to think he isn't impressive would make no sense in the slightest

I still don't understand how do you think this supports you in any possible aspect. Given that Cell speeded up even further, and we proved that Gohan requires faster and a stronger cell than the one who fought Goku, that would still mean Cell was also holding back against Goku heavily, but raised it against Gohan, regardless.

Because unless a character states Cell got stronger or faster than ever before we can't just accept that is true. Cell decided to go faster on Gohan, but we have no idea if he did or didn't use that speed on Goku.

That is enough evident in the Manga already given Cell's statement, so the speculation would be considered on you given that Cell was more serious with Gohan than Goku. It also is suggested far better in the Anime.

Yes, but when I read that I get the feeling they are talking about ssj2 Gohan. Especially considering Gohan's performance as a ssj1 didn't exceed Goku's, even if he was stronger, his performance was still worse overall. Goku landed much more and better hits.

Thing is, Gohan's performance proved to be even better than Goku, but he didn't get the chance to lengthen it due to urging Cell to see his latent power, getting him more fired up.

It also states (the guide) that Gohan's inexperience was at fault. Goku's battle with Cell was mostly both of them playing around, and cell dragging it for the joy of it, unlike Gohan, where cell was trying to get Gohan killed from the start.

Goku landed hits on a heavily suppressed Cell

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

New match:

- Caulifla vs. Zangya

Caulifla would easily destroy her even in her base form.

Agreed

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Um what? There is ample evidence to argue even ssj Goten is weaker than Frieza and you think base Goten is >>> Frieza? Even with a direct statement of base Goku being weaker than Frieza. I could see maybe saying Goku was suppressed and debating that ssj Goten is a good deal above Frieza, both of which I disagree with, but saying Goten when he couldn't fly was >>> Frieza makes absolutely no sense. It makes about as much sense as me saying the farmer with a shotgun could of actually beat Raditz.
And saying we all know? I can almost guarantee if I made a thread of base Goten before he could fly vs Frieza on comic vine it would get insta locked for being a mismatch. Probably even if it was first form Frieza let alone 100% Frieza.

Well, me and DB Mangum agree about Base Goten is > Freeza, so sorry if this sounds rude but your opinion is irrevelant on this moment since it's a debate between me and him and the Goten case was only an example, not the focus of the debate.

Comic Vine people try to scale Dragon Balls feats linearly like it's sciene, their words means jackshit. If i created a topic on DBZF, DBZeta or even Neoseeker most people would agree Freeza would be laughed of by Base Goten.

[All these scans prove that Gohan's anger gave him arave boost. This rage boost is actually the basis of his latent power. Ssj2 transformation was unlocked due to his anger, but the power he gained wasn't a set multiplier. You're barely giving any valuable refutes and hardly have any arguments, and you're only saying "I disagree, so this is wrong". This is unreliable. With this, since you're basically showing almost nothing, I'd only have to say that my argument stands unphased.

No, they only recap what happened at the Cell Games, saying Gohan got enraged and unlocked the transformation. I'm not ignoring anything here, it's just you trying to give the statements a meaning they are not supposed to.

Ssj2 can be achieved with regular training:

Image

Gohan However, with anger, resulted in his latent power to be released. His latent power =/= Ssj2 Multiplier. This is heavily noted

You ignoring this holds absolutely no relevance. It's a confirmed issue, proven by all these guides that the anger has given him Ssj2 and his latent power to be released.

Ssj2 is not form achieved by Anger originally

Despite this Gohan went Ssj2 against Dabura, yet Goku still tells Gohan to GET angry and release the power he used Against Cell, meaning Goku is differentiating his latent power with any transformation. It's clear as day, anything more is absolutely useless.

You do realise the Daizenshuu scan you posted says Gohan transformed throught rage, right?

And that Goku saying Gohan works to get angry also is an argument for Gohan being only a SSJ? I mean, it's the second most used argument after the artwork.

This is all based on your assumption, and the fact that you ignored every source just so that it satisfies your beliefs. Gohan has been stated to have never gotten weaker in the same guide which mentions that Gohan as Ssj2 is weaker than his Cell Games counterpart. This makes sense with my argument completely, and correlates with other guides. Nowhere was
in the has it been stated that Gohan gotten weaker until his Ssj2 form was in place.

I'm not ignoring any source, it's just you misinterpreting them on your own will.

Vegeta belives Gohan is rusty the moment he sees him:
Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P4.1
Vegeta: “Your body’s gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case.”

And after Gohan transforms at the Budokai, Vegeta confirms his words and says Gohan has gotten weaker due to lack of training:
Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.3
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”

So overall, Gohan has ndeed gotten weaker.

Your examples hold no value whatsoever, as you're still speculating. The fact that Daizenshuu hasn't mentioned anything about it in that category, doesn't mean in anyway that we should assume it means somethiby else. we follow what's been given to us, not invent something else. By this actually, the Daizenshuu would be contradicting itself, and other guides such as El Manga Legendario which implies Gohan was a Ssj2 Against Dabura, as well as contradicts the Manga and Anime.

I've presented the evidence as the Daizenshuu indicates when the character uses a form further, yet your response is that i'm speculating? Lmao

What? Gohan casually transforms in the Tournament into Ssj2:

Uh... That's why i keep saying it's an outlier.

Ssj2, again, is not a form which is achieved by Anger. Unlike Regular Ssj, which was originally thought to have been only unlocked by Anger:

Despite all the scans you posted from Daizenshuu and the El Manga Legendario saying Gohan achieved SSJ2 through angry?

Then regardless that actually further supports me of Gohan = Ssj2 and Dabura being equal to Super Perfect Cell. A Holding Back Ssj2 Gohan is superior to an enraged Ssj by far, and that was holding back.

Rage doesn't mean more power, as Gohan admits so when he says he isn't angry enough to power up:
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

Why would Gohan be holding back there? The point of him transforming was for him to show how powerful he was to Kibito.

You gave no credibility behind any of your arguments to suggest they even compare with the evidence directly from the Manga, Anime and Guides. That's denying the evidence infornt of us, which would make the artwork inconsistent as one piece of evidence would hold no candle against other factual material, and many of them at that.

Here is a Ssj2:

Image

Another instances:

Image

Image

It's clear that from a writing perspective it was always meant to be Ssj2, and that is what's been shown to us in the entire Manga and Anime besides artwork. My argument stands
unrefuted

The first case is because the reader isn't supposed to know Goku is a SSJ2 until Vegeta notes so. I mean, the first time you read, did you instantly notice Goku turned into a Super Saiyan 2? Probably not.

The second instance, like i said, is the minority inconsistence. I mean, are you going to say Gohan doesn't have a face because of a badly drawn panel of him without a face?

If you check the fight, the majority of the time Vegeta does have an furious aura with sparks. Even on the scans you posted Vegeta and Goku still show sparks here and there. You're making the exceptions override the rule. They indeed lacked sparks and the aura here and there, but Gohan constantly shows the calm, sparkless aura. Saying Toriyama was being inconsistent for the several chapters he draw Gohan while he was consistent for like 90% of the time with Goku and Gohan is just whacky. Even when SSJ2 is already "outdated" by SSJ3, Toriyama still cares about the details of SSJ2:


Like i proved before the guidebooks are inconsistent, and the story also is meant to have Gohan as a SSJ:

Further evidence for SSJ1 (going besides the art)


---Majin Vegeta SSJ is treated as a big deal by everyone there, with Goku and Gohan trembling at his powers and Babidi and Dabura implying he would do a better job at collecting the warrior's energy than Dabura did:





Not to mention the way Babidi is sure Vegeta will kill everyone who gets in the way:



All of this doesn't make much sense if Gohan and Dabura showed powers who far exceeded the prince.


---The way Gohan accuses the SSJ2 of being one of the reasons the energy to revive Majin Boo was collected so fast, as being in a form that damages pretty fast:



This makes Gohan being a SSJ2 in the fight against Dabura pretty fishy considering Dabura barely damaged Gohan, with Babidi being angry with the lack of energy.




---Gohan admits he was not using all of his power against Dabra:



The reason behind this is because he is not enraged enough to transform:



The only reason people assume Gohan was a SSJ2 is because of anime and a few statement from Shin. By those same statements one could argue Vegeta was using SSJ2 to beat Pocus but Toriyama was inconsistent with art and draw him in base

You don't judge what's an outlier and what's Not based on your own mutual standpoint. If you have no evidence, proof or powerful argument to support yourself then all that business will be useless. The evidence from the Manga and Anime I'm Using guides far surpasses that of Ssj, which is all enough to say he was Ssj2

Here's an example of a Super Saiyan with sparks:

Image

It's stated in Daizenshuu and El Manga Legendario that he is a Regular Super Saiyan:

Image

Image

Uh, i have proved Gohan transforming is an outlier via Goku saying he needed train to transform at will, but when i showed you the scan you just ignored my point and posted Gohan's transformation again.

Vegetto showing sparks for a panel doesn't mean much. Goten and Trunks showed a SSJ2 aura while powering up at Kami's Castle:


SSJ characters can show SSJ2 auras for brief moments and any character can show sparks, even Nappa showed it. Auras are a physical representation of someone's Ki. When someone is putting a lot of power, their auras get turbulent because they are putting a lot of power. Dunno why the sparks show up though, but the only cases of SSJs with sparks are Vegetto and Majin Vegeta for a single panel, and GT Perfect Files says sparks are a detail of SSJ2s:

Super Saiyan 2
A type of warrior who possess power surpassing Super Saiyan 1 in power, speed, and all other points!! However, it seems to not provide a rapid increase, so after Goku awakened to Super Saiyan 3, he would often skip over 2 and transform straight from 1 to 3!! In visual terms as well there’s not all the much different from 1, these differences consisting of the sparks in the aura and the hair on the head standing up even straighter than before!

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14812#p405479

You know what's funnier, Grade 2 and Grade 3 Super Saiyans has furious aura, and sometimes regular Ssj even:

Image

So no you're wrong. Art isn't consistent completely, and can be inconsistent if it's contradicted

What's your point here? We are talking about the differences between SSJ and SSJ2, other transformations and characters are irrelevant. What's next, Piccolo having a SSJ aura? Nappa showing sparks?

And like i said above, auras are a representation of someone's ki. A furious aura just means they are putting even more power than the regular. With Super Saiyans it's just a brief burst when they are charging an attack or showing off their ki, but with superior forms (Grade 2/3, SSJ2, SSJ3) it's constant because the higher power output is constant.

Buu Saga Base Goku > Kaioshin = Ssj Goku Cell Games > Piccolo

Don't compare Buu Saga tiers to Piccolo.

Chapter: 407 (DBZ 213), P5.3
Context: as the Cell Juniors beat everyone up
Cell (to Gohan): “If you don’t show your true worth soon, things will go past the point of no return. Look closely. Vegeta or Trunks are barely fighting evenly…Even Son Goku is in trouble, having lost his stamina…”
Note: Cell says that “Vegeta ya Trunks” are fighting evenly; yais a non-exhaustive word for ‘and’, meaning the things listed aren’t necessarily the only things there are to list. In other words, Cell’s line doesn’t necessarily mean that nobody but Trunks or Vegeta are fighting evenly, just that they’re the first examples to come to mind.

Manga is vague about Piccolo fighting the Cell Juniors, so Anime is much clearer. Piccolo held his own against a cell junior (he caught the rest off guard or by surprise)

Had Piccolo been holding his own against the Jrs Cell would have said so. Arguing semantics is a pretty weak argument to include Piccolo in a statement he isn't even mentioned.

Anime is non canon man, so it's pretty much irrevelant here. Otherwise we might bring Yamcha and Tenshinhan saving Goku's butt by beating up a Cell Jr...

Yes, manhandled. Goku's base attacks are stronger than Yakon's. Heck, Goku dodged his attacks even, Goku wasn't even shown serious. Yakon despite seeing in the dark couldn't do anything to Goku regardless and thought he can see.

I do see your point at first:

Image

Image

But then Goku would have underestimated him and didn't know about his ability to cut others. Gohan even said Goku can handle him on his own.

Gohan changed his mind when he learned Yakon can suck Light Energy which could prove dangerous and that's all:

Image

Image

Goku's attack blitzed Yakon, and he dodged him casually.

It was on the dark, Yakon didn't expect for Goku to be able to keep up with him. Dodging an attack and landing a kick doesn't mean much, it just means Goku is on Yakon's range. Gohan changed his mind after seeing Yakon eats light, so the reason he assumed Goku can beat him alone is because of Super Saiyan.

Sorry but its been implied Gohan is Stronger either way. For Gohan not to figure that out is not major at all. Gohan represents Goku, his father, as some sort of unbeatable figure when it comes between them. He would never imagine he'd surpass Goku. Goku told him that he'll make him surpass him, but he never bought it. The rest is simply interpretations with no back up.

That's what i'm saying. Gohan is leaps and bounds above Goku, that's a fact. I'm just saying it's silly to think Gohan had a tenfold advantage over his father.

Sorry but no. That's you speculating it. The entire show states that The DBZ universe consists of quadrants, represented by the words "galaxies", despite the translation leaning towards the word "areas".

Even the guide implies that it's multiple galaxies

But you know what? Even without that, he's far beyond Cell, because to have time to shatter most of the galaxy in Goku's life span, being a Solar system buster only is nowhere near enough.

You do realize the scans you posted on the last page has everybody saying Broly wasted the South Galaxy, right?

It's possible Broly went around wrecking civilizations instead of outright destroying plantes, it's possible for Cell to replicate the same feat, especially when Freeza on his first form wasted and slaved almost the whole north Galaxy.

But i agree we should agree to disagree. I didn't really ignore all you said, i just said it could be either Broly destroying plantets or just civilization, but considering neither of us can disprove each other's interpretations, it's better to agree to disagree on this topic.

[dragon boss z]

Well, me and DB Mangum agree about Base Goten is > Freeza, so sorry if this sounds rude but your opinion is irrevelant on this moment since it's a debate between me and him and the Goten case was only an example, not the focus of the debate.

You made it sound like most people believe that as you said "we can all agree". It's not like you said "me and you agree".

And either way, base Goten before he learned how to fly being above 100% final form Frieza is almost as far fetched as saying the farmer with a shotgun could of beat Radtiz. It just makes no sense with no backing.
Maybe post ROSAT base Goten, but even then there is about 0 evidence implying that is the case.

Comic Vine people try to scale Dragon Balls feats linearly like it's sciene, their words means jackshit.

I agree trying to use fan calcs and science doesn't make sense in dragon ball, but literally everything from feats, to a story perspective points to Frieza being stronger than base Gohan before he knew how to fly. Even in yo son Goku and his friends post ROSAT Goten had trouble with first form Frieza tier characters. Heck he even had trouble with a big snake in episode 1 of super.

If i created a topic on DBZF, DBZeta or even Neoseeker most people would agree Freeza would be laughed of by Base Goten.

I highly doubt that, especially if you said base Gohan before he could fly. Most forums I've visited have people debating ssj Goten vs Frieza.

I actually looked it up and there were some threads.
most people voted for Frieza here
https://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/2000113 ... 705?page=2

Seemed kind of split here.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8307932/3/

on Neo seeker it was base Goten vs 2nd form Frieza. Most people voted Goten but pretty much everyone acted as if base Goten was less than final form Frieza.

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t122 ... cond-form/

Either way, it is definitely not a high majority opinion which you seemed to imply. I would say ssj Goten being above Frieza is probably a majority opinion (one I disagree with), but that actually has some good evidence behind it.

What? He thinks he isn't amazing in comparison to Goku if anything. He's the youngest Ssj ever, and actually is proud of it while explaining it to Goten. In the Anime they even portray himself to be a prodigy of some sort, downgrading Goten completely. For Gohan to think he isn't impressive would make no sense in the slightest

Gohan was more cocky in the Buu arc. Gohan never bragged about his power or said he was exceptional before turning ssj2. He didn't realize how strong he was.

That is enough evident in the Manga already given Cell's statement, so the speculation would be considered on you given that Cell was more serious with Gohan than Goku. It also is suggested far better in the Anime.

He just said he speed up on Gohan, we can't say anything more than that. We don't know what speed he was using on Goku.

Thing is, Gohan's performance proved to be even better than Goku, but he didn't get the chance to lengthen it due to urging Cell to see his latent power, getting him more fired up.

No, Cell was beating ssj Gohan's butt almost the entire time. Goku blasted Cell's upper body off and even forced him to use a force field.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It also states (the guide) that Gohan's inexperience was at fault. Goku's battle with Cell was mostly both of them playing around, and cell dragging it for the joy of it, unlike Gohan, where cell was trying to get Gohan killed from the start.

He was going to do that because he thought Gohan wasn't good enough to challenge him. When he realized he was he decided to actually fight him.

Goku landed hits on a heavily suppressed Cell

It was the same Cell ssj Gohan fought. If you give Gohan the benefit of the doubt Cell was using more speed on him, but he never said he was using more power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, me and DB Mangum agree about Base Goten is > Freeza, so sorry if this sounds rude but your opinion is irrevelant on this moment since it's a debate between me and him and the Goten case was only an example, not the focus of the debate.

You made it sound like most people believe that as you said "we can all agree". It's not like you said "me and you agree".

And either way, base Goten before he learned how to fly being above 100% final form Frieza is almost as far fetched as saying the farmer with a shotgun could of beat Radtiz. It just makes no sense with no backing.
Maybe post ROSAT base Goten, but even then there is about 0 evidence implying that is the case.

By "We" i was refering to me and him.

Why Goten not being able to fly means anything about his power?

[dragon boss z]

By "We" i was refering to me and him.

Ah ok.

Why Goten not being able to fly means anything about his power?

It doesn't automatically mean that he is weaker, but it is a strong indication. A better question would be why would a kid who doesn't know how to fly, has been training with his mom who is weaker than Roshi, and has no solid feats, be above final form Frieza or his dad on namek? I mean him and kid Trunks in their ssj forms have some hype behind them, but there bases were never once portrayed to be that strong.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

No, they only recap what happened at the Cell Games, saying Gohan got enraged and unlocked the transformation. I'm not ignoring anything here, it's just you trying to give the statements a meaning they are not supposed to.

Still no. These scans specifically point out differences between between Ssj2 in general and Gohan's latent power. Gohan's potential =/= a set multiplier like Ssj2, so it would make absolutely no sense for Gohan's Potential o be represented by a set Multiplier. These guides quite obviously show us the difference and meanings.

Rage also increases your strength to an utmost level actually, similar cases in Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Z occurred which furthered this as well. Daizenshuu States that Goku has a power level exceeding 150,000,000, a possible factor due to rage:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Despite having The Super Exciting Guide mention that Regular Ssj is 50x Base:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's true Super Saiyan triggered by rage, but it differs from cases into another. Gohan transformed into a Ssj after being cornered, thus got angry. Unlike Goku, who went into Ssj due to the pain of having Krillin die, and still wanted to beat Frieza either way. Gohan states its triggered by Anger:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So Super Saiyan is different than Super Saiyan 2 Which is triggered anger-wise

Daizenshuu 7 simply estimates the power level of Super Saiyan Goku despite saying that it's above 150,000,000 without a specific amount which makes sense. However, the overall result when we apply the Multiplier onto Base Goku, that's what we get.

You do realise the Daizenshuu scan you posted says Gohan transformed throught rage, right?

Of course I do. But continue the text please and don't jump to conclusions:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

~2
First Appearance: chapter 408
People: Son Goku, Son Gohan, Vegeta, Gotenks
Special features: This form has power that surpasses Super Saiya-jin in all ways. Gohan naturally transformed into this form from his anger at Cell's brutal actions, while Goku and Vegeta learned it from harsh training.

And that Goku saying Gohan works to get angry also is an argument for Gohan being only a SSJ? I mean, it's the second most used argument after the artwork.

This works not the slightest bit with the super saiyan argument. Despite the fact that this topic has already been proven multiple times to be Ssj2 and logically it can't be Ssj given its blunt contradiction, this doesn't help you at all

NOWHERE does Goku say to Gohan to "transform" or anything. Goku would told him something along the lines of "get angry and transform like you did back against Cell" or so. Goku specifies Gohan's anger to UNLEASH his latent power. Goku says nothing about transforming, because the issue was his latent power:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Gohan unleashes his latent power:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So I suppose latent power = 2x Ssj? Despite having Gohan's latent power far beyond a single 2x Multiplier, and I'll show you

Cell returns, and as he does So, Gohan powers up ready to beat him as casual as can be although he was swallowed by his anger more or less:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

He simply wants to avenge Goku while being blinded by Cell's more confident acting and power up, proving that Gohan isn't thinking at all other than revenge here.

After that happens, Vegeta gets mad over trunks's death yet he still pales back then against him. Cell decides to Kill Vegeta. Realizing this, Gohan dashes to save Vegeta but gets most of his powers lost due to underestimating Cell's thus leaving a chance for cell to damage him:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

This is further proven by Gohan apologizing To Goku over how he messed his chance of saving the day (he could have done it twice but failed those 2 times):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The good part starts here. As this occurs, we are informed that Gohan lost MORE THAN HALF his Ki, and on top of that, he has one arm. Which makes it a break point to Gohan forcing him to give up then suddenly Goku interrupting Gohan's absurd decision:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

This shows Goku's trust in Gohan's little energy left.

GOKU LENT HIS POWER TO Gohan and this is 100% confirmed:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Spanish Text:

"Gohan tiene el brazo izquiredo herido y su energia se ha reducido a menos de la mitad, pero Goku lo ayuda desde el vida futura y contrarrestan el kamehameha de Cell con otro mas poderoso. Esta simbolica escena resume el caracter de Dragon Ball. Por una parte, tenemos el enfrentamiento entre dos kamehameha, la tecnica mas emblematica: por otra, un rival que es un compendio de los enemigos de Goku, Cuando padre e hijo lanzan el kamehameha, lo hacen con toda la fuerza acumulada en innumerables enfrentamientos. Aun en le otro mundo, la imagen de Goku representa que el kamehameha no lo lanza unicamente Gohan. Destaca tambien la reaccion de Vegeta, que al final, scanado fuerzas de flaqueza, lanza un kikoha a Cell. Fue una gran contribucion, ya que consiguio que Cell bajara la guardia."

English Translation:

"Gohan has his left arm injured and his energy has been reduced to less than half, but Goku helps him from the afterlife and counter Cell's kamehameha with a more powerful one. This symbolic scene summarizes the character of Dragon Ball. On the one hand, we have the clash between two kamehameha, the most emblematic technique: on the other, a rival that is a compendium of Goku's enemies, When father and son throw kamehameha, they do it with all the force accumulated in countless clashes. Even in the other world, the image of Goku represents that the kamehameha is not only launched by Gohan. Also highlights the reaction of Vegeta, who in the end, scanned forces of weakness, launches a kikoha to Cell. It was a great contribution, as it got Cell to lower his guard."

More evidence:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

"Borrowing power from Goku in the afterlife, he vanquishes Cell"

This power however DOESN'T change much of the given output in this Kamehameha. The visual shows Base Goku being the main source:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Coloured Manga:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You could argue it's Ssj because of Kai (Although Manga contradicts it but let's go with these terms. Daizenshuu did go with Kai, but El Manga Legendario took side with the Manga), Ssj Goku Cell games is an absolute fodder to Ssj2 Gohan and even the slightest ever power:

http://aminoapps.com/p/4sxyyx

http://aminoapps.com/p/507ni0

We now established the ridiculous inferiority of Cell to Gohan and how Goku is also nowhere near that, as well as Ssj2 Multiplier here was amped with Rage boost.

We can also say that As always, Cell was trying his fucking hardest while Gohan restricted himself for the safety of earth and others who are in the range of this clash in the field:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So, 2x is NOWHERE near enough at all. This Gohan's latent power which is so powerful that Piccolo has room to say that it might be stronger than Majin Vegeta with DOUBT, and is above Ssj Goku Buu Saga who's base is above Kaioshin which is equal to Ssj Goku Cell Saga. The difference in strength is ridiculously high.

No room for disagreement.

I'm not ignoring any source, it's just you misinterpreting them on your own will.

Vegeta belives Gohan is rusty the moment he sees him:
Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P4.1
Vegeta: “Your body’s gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case.”

And after Gohan transforms at the Budokai, Vegeta confirms his words and says Gohan has gotten weaker due to lack of training:
Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.3
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”

So overall, Gohan has ndeed gotten weaker.

Rusty doesn't in ANYWAY mean getting weaker at all. Thus is a null argument

Vegeta states that Gohan got rusty. He recommends him that he should keep training just in case:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Chapter: 423 (DBZ 229), P4.1
Vegeta: “Your body’s gotten rusty. No matter how peaceful it may be, you should still train just in case.”

The word "rusty" doesn't necessarily mean that he has gotten weaker. Another translation says "Never get soft" and "Out of Shape":

[spoiler][/spoiler]

These words would equate to becoming less adapted to fighting and experience would decline. A proof of this is in Dragon Ball Super.

Frieza states to Goku that he has gone "soft":

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yet later in the next episode, he states and implies he got stronger, to the point where he even equalled SsjB Goku from the Tournament Of Power Arc who can be argued to be above Merged Zamasu's Level:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

So basically it doesn't mean he got weaker. We don't have anything that states Gohan got weaker, nor anything that says he got stronger.

Only his Ssj2, because Gohan didn't pull out his latent potential. So nope, the argument stands still

I've presented the evidence as the Daizenshuu indicates when the character uses a form further, yet your response is that i'm speculating? Lmao

Let me rephrase that, because I might have been too blunt. Daizenshuu still hasn't mentioned that he didn't go Ssj2 later on. The thing is, it didn't state it directly for us. For example, Daizenshuu also says that Ssj2 Gohan appears later through the story:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

But then, when Gohan went to take off the Z Sword, Sparks were drawn around him in the Anime:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The Anime also proves Gohan went Ssj2 Against Dabura, and all of these are supported in the Manga.

Toei interpreted the Manga this way, and we cannot argue over and over. Daizenshuu is contradicting itself, or you can argue it's Vague thus it's an unusable argument.

Uh... That's why i keep saying it's an outlier.

Again, know one can judge what's an outlier and what's Not unless there's a solid argument behind it, so if there's nothing of that sort, then it stays valid. Also, there has never been an outlier regarding transformations, especially since this is supported actually quite well. This same proclaimed "outlier" has multiple arguments behind it. Vegeta states Gohan as a Ssj2 is nowhere near his Cell Saga counterpart. But if this is an outlier then it's rendered useless completely, and so are later statements which are dependant on it. So Again, no. That would render a whole horde of evidences later on as invalid which obviously not something correct to do

Despite all the scans you posted from Daizenshuu and the El Manga Legendario saying Gohan achieved SSJ2 through angry?

You're kind of misinterpreting me. I never said Gohan didn't achieve Super Saiyan 2 lol. Gohan achieved Ssj2 through his anger but the power was amped due to it being in relevance to his Latent power rather than a regular set multiplier.

Rage doesn't mean more power, as Gohan admits so when he says he isn't angry enough to power up:
Gohan: “I-I am angry…! I’m angry, but…[it’s not] like it was ba-back then…”

You actually contradicted yourself heavily lmao. That text you posted actually tells us that he IS ANGRY, (it says nothing about him not being stronger), but not as much as when he fought cell at all, not that he's still weak.

Gohan also got angry enough that Dabura and had to escape rather than try and block it:

[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

Why would Gohan be holding back there? The point of him transforming was for him to show how powerful he was to Kibito.

It's confusing for you because you think he was a Ssj that's all. It's quite obvious, the series of events prove it

Gohan goes Ssj2, that's nowhere near his Cell Saga counterpart, and not his latent potential as back then. Dabura is as strong if not stronger than Super Perfect Cell. Gohan tries his best to stop him. He bluntly despises and us disgusted from Dabura for what he did to Piccolo and Krillin. Dabura and Gohan are perfect matched, with Dabura having the upper advantage. No one notes Gohan's lack of transformation other than his decreased power due to not maintaining his power against Cell. Guides and Anime prove that Gohan is a Ssj2

Denying all this is not even possible. Gohan doesn't even know why Kibito wanted him to go Ssj2, but nothing says he was at full power. In fact, this is proven by Kaioshin's later reaction when he fights Dabura, and when he tells Kibito about him. It's too evident. Little nitpicks and vague arguments aren't going to help The other Ssj argument which is almost fully contradicted.

The first case is because the reader isn't supposed to know Goku is a SSJ2 until Vegeta notes so. I mean, the first time you read, did you instantly notice Goku turned into a Super Saiyan 2? Probably not.

That's no valid interpretation though. We already know what a Ssj2 is. How is it we are not supposed to know he's a Ssj2? Vegeta himself notes it, and even Kaioshin recognizes it. We originally saw a Ssj2 from the cell games and know his "overall features" including sparks and spike-like hairs and projections. It's obviously an inconsistency in the art.

The second instance, like i said, is the minority inconsistence. I mean, are you going to say Gohan doesn't have a face because of a badly drawn panel of him without a face?

The argument here is that you said there is no inconsistency in the artwork, not a badly drawn panel. There's difference between art work inconsistency (in the sense we're arguing over) and badly drawn panels.

If you check the fight, the majority of the time Vegeta does have an furious aura with sparks. Even on the scans you posted Vegeta and Goku still show sparks here and there. You're making the exceptions override the rule.

Like I said overall, it's about inconsistency and not anything else. Also, Akira Toriyama wanted to specify and differentiate a Ssj2 from a Ssj power wise where he mentions later on. That would mean Akira either forgot about Gohan or simply contradicted himself more than once. Either way Gohan was a Ssj2

They indeed lacked sparks and the aura here and there, but Gohan constantly shows the calm, sparkless aura. Saying Toriyama was being inconsistent for the several chapters he draw Gohan while he was consistent for like 90% of the time with Goku and Gohan is just whacky. Even when SSJ2 is already "outdated" by SSJ3, Toriyama still cares about the details of SSJ2:


Like i proved before the guidebooks are inconsistent, and the story also is meant to have Gohan as a SSJ:

You didn't show anything being inconsistent. All your evidence relies on artwork while you ignore and/or deny all the other solid evidences behind the case. 1 evidence which is easily arguable holds no candle to multiple concrete evidences which solidifies an argument. All guidebooks prove Gohan to be Ssj2. Anime proves Gohan to be Ssj2. Manga proves Gohan to be Ssj2 except for artwork.

A number of concrete evidences > One single evidence which is easily arguable.

Further evidence for SSJ1 (going besides the art)


---Majin Vegeta SSJ is treated as a big deal by everyone there, with Goku and Gohan trembling at his powers and Babidi and Dabura implying he would do a better job at collecting the warrior's energy than Dabura did:





Not to mention the way Babidi is sure Vegeta will kill everyone who gets in the way:



All of this doesn't make much sense if Gohan and Dabura showed powers who far exceeded the prince.

This proves almost nothing. Vegeta as a Ssj being above Ssj2 Gohan Buu Saga is a very arguable thing. Vegeta was going to finish Dabura off, but Goku stops him. Goku doesn't know that Vegeta can go Ssj2 at all:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Goku doenst know Vegeta has a Ssj2. Goku wanted to beat Vegeta quickly as a Ssj2 thinking that he can't transform further above Ssj2, yet Vegeta surprises him:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I'll show how Gohan is far above Gohan

Gohan after training with the z sword hardly lifts it:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Goku lifts it easier and casually talks and acts while doing so:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

This is the same Gohan who was training with the Z Sword as a Ssj/Ssj2 (his hair looks like a Ssj2 similar when he was a Ssj2 infornt if Kibito, doesn't matter either way though) and struggled with it based on his tiresomeness and signs of it:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

That's before Gohan masters the Z Sword even. Gohan at first barely lifted it and couldn't properly swing it, unlike now and back then (when Goku came and met him)

It's even evident enough to argue. Your argument assumes Ssj2 Vegeta is relevant to Ssj2 Gohan Buu Saga which is a faulty speculation.

---The way Gohan accuses the SSJ2 of being one of the reasons the energy to revive Majin Boo was collected so fast, as being in a form that damages pretty fast:



This makes Gohan being a SSJ2 in the fight against Dabura pretty fishy considering Dabura barely damaged Gohan, with Babidi being angry with the lack of energy.

You're cherrypicking now. This is absolutely wrong.

Gohan saying that Goku and Vegeta are fighting at a level beyond Ssj2 doesn't make it fishy.

Funny how you contradicted yourself actually. You claim that Dabura barely damaged Gohan, so OBVIOUSLY no energy will be transferred.

Unlike Goku and Vegeta who kept trading blows and hitting each other:

[spoiler]


[/spoiler]

Dabura could also beat Gohan. Dabura is sure of himself while Gohan is worried:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So it isn't fishy. Also, Gohan was SHOCKED BEFORE he mentions anything to Kaioshin:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

There would be no reason to be shocked if Goku and Vegeta are fighting as a Ssj2 and Gohan was a Ssj. But the general idea that Gohan wants Kaioshin to understand is their ridiculous power. Gohan would have to think that they haven't reached this stage and he knows how powerful their Super Saiyan forms are, yet he's still shocked. To him, Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him despite having Ssj2. Hence Kaioshin deduced that Those 3 characters are unbelievable. Gohan's Potential, Goku and Vegeta (their powers):

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So it's really not fishy at all. Gohan just doesn't know they have Ssj2.

---Gohan admits he was not using all of his power against Dabra:



The reason behind this is because he is not enraged enough to transform:



The only reason people assume Gohan was a SSJ2 is because of anime and a few statement from Shin. By those same statements one could argue Vegeta was using SSJ2 to beat Pocus but Toriyama was inconsistent with art and draw him in base

I hate how you chose a specific statement and managed to ignore the rest of the context.

Gohan meant his power in the Cell Games:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Gohan SPECIFIES his latent power from the Cell Games. He mentions nothing about transforming, but he mentions only powering up to his old latent power. He used all of his power against Dabura and did what he could. His latent power is not with him.

Anime, Guides and Manga prove Gohan was Ssj2. Base Vegeta is completley different argument than Ssj because there's absolutely no way you can't differentiate between a base Saiyan and a Super Saiyan.

Uh, i have proved Gohan transforming is an outlier via Goku saying he needed train to transform at will, but when i showed you the scan you just ignored my point and posted Gohan's transformation again.

Vegetto showing sparks for a panel doesn't mean much. Goten and Trunks showed a SSJ2 aura while powering up at Kami's Castle:

Sorry mate, but that's no evidence at all.

Super Saiyans and even base Saiyans have these types if Auras:

[spoiler]






[/spoiler]

Sparks don't equate to Aura at all. Showing Sparks, again, doesn't equate at all to Super Saiyan Aura or Ssj2 Aura. Don't compare them.

SSJ characters can show SSJ2 auras for brief moments and any character can show sparks, even Nappa showed it. Auras are a physical representation of someone's Ki. When someone is putting a lot of power, their auras get turbulent because they are putting a lot of power. Dunno why the sparks show up though, but the only cases of SSJs with sparks are Vegetto and Majin Vegeta for a single panel, and GT Perfect Files says sparks are a detail of SSJ2s:

Super Saiyan 2
A type of warrior who possess power surpassing Super Saiyan 1 in power, speed, and all other points!! However, it seems to not provide a rapid increase, so after Goku awakened to Super Saiyan 3, he would often skip over 2 and transform straight from 1 to 3!! In visual terms as well there’s not all the much different from 1, these differences consisting of the sparks in the aura and the hair on the head standing up even straighter than before!

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14812#p405479

It's funny how at this point you're trying to defend yourself whatsoever and deny many other evidences which puts down the argument completley that Gohan was Ssj2 and so. Your argument could very well be implemented into the artwork thing and state that Gohan was a Ssj2 but sometimes Aura and Sparks are not shown. Some battle have a Saiyan with Ssj2 Aura for the whole fight. Ssj Vegito Had a full throttle of Sparks around him, something no other Regular Super Saiyan did at all. So you have no argument over Vegito no matter how much you try.

Bringing an unreliable guide which doesn't follow the main continuity's path is not even acceptable. Bringing GT perfect files is as relevant as for me to bring a proof from an episode of Dragon Ball GT to prove something in Dragon Ball Super. This is considered invalid to the core. At this point you're trying to find evidence from places where there is no correlation and no evidence from the start just so that you don't want to change your mind and beliefs

What's your point here? We are talking about the differences between SSJ and SSJ2, other transformations and characters are irrelevant. What's next, Piccolo having a SSJ aura? Nappa showing sparks?

Nappa is a relevant argument just like how you brought up Goten and Trunks. By your logic your argument itself is "pointless". Ssj Grade 3 also has a sharp Ki who is also a Ssj. Despite this, MSsj has a regular Ssj Aura and supposedly Only Ssj2 has sharp Aura and Sparks when that is contradicted multiple times and by Vegito himself. Stop trying to evade the argument please.

And like i said above, auras are a representation of someone's ki. A furious aura just means they are putting even more power than the regular. With Super Saiyans it's just a brief burst when they are charging an attack or showing off their ki, but with superior forms (Grade 2/3, SSJ2, SSJ3) it's constant because the higher power output is constant.

Also wrong. There are times where a Super Saiyan has a sharp Aura even while standing which I showed some.

You know what though? You gained nothing from this, because artwork is a single easily arguable weak evidence when compared to other concrete multiple number of quality evidences which supports my point rather than yours. Logic also says it all. The Super Saiyan argument revolves around poorly interpreted ideas while denying most other factual material and defying logic itself.

Had Piccolo been holding his own against the Jrs Cell would have said so. Arguing semantics is a pretty weak argument to include Piccolo in a statement he isn't even mentioned.

What the content says based on the translation > us. The translation quite CLEARLY shows us a believable reason on why Cell didn't mention and even so it doesn't prove anything. Ignoring it renders your argument invalid.

Anime is non canon man, so it's pretty much irrevelant here. Otherwise we might bring Yamcha and Tenshinhan saving Goku's butt by beating up a Cell Jr..

Sorry, we don't judge what's canon and what's Not except things which doesn't follow the main continuity. Anime is Canon and that's also proven by how even most fillers have a relation to the Author himself:

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/rumor/general/

Dragon Ball Kai is Akira Toriyama's own cut which manages to conclude all his intentions and follow the Manga as much as possible:

[spoiler]
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/episod ... png?x86358
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/episode/kai/[/spoiler]

Yamcha and Tien doing anyhting to Cell Juniors is an obvious inconsistency/outlier and doesn't need arguing. Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks were shown standing in the Manga and portrayed as in the same realm of power in the Anime. Cell implied that they can stop playing and become serious at the end:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

So no.

It was on the dark, Yakon didn't expect for Goku to be able to keep up with him. Dodging an attack and landing a kick doesn't mean much, it just means Goku is on Yakon's range. Gohan changed his mind after seeing Yakon eats light, so the reason he assumed Goku can beat him alone is because of Super Saiyan.

The fact that Goku is capable of dodging him is all that's needed to prove that Goku can go up Against Yakon in Base. The Anime also showcases this by showing that Base Goku can easily blitz Yakon and even hurt him to the point he worries Yakon. Both Manga and Anime show us a point that Goku went Ssj only to light up the area:

[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Goku in base can beat Yakon, proven in the Anime very well and structured-wise

That's what i'm saying. Gohan is leaps and bounds above Goku, that's a fact. I'm just saying it's silly to think Gohan had a tenfold advantage over his father.

I'm sure this wasn't written to you but to Dragon Boss Z, but I'll roll with it. Silly or not, we can't judge it like that, since there is no proof at all to support whether our "tastes" or "feel to this" is correct or not.

You do realize the scans you posted on the last page has everybody saying Broly wasted the South Galaxy, right?

The word "galaxy" doesn't mean literally galaxy. The Dragon Ball Universe divides itself into 4 quadrants or as the translation says, areas.

The usage of the word "area" is shown here:

[spoiler][/spoiler]

They use the term "北エリア" which doesn't mean "north galaxy" but it means north area. Galaxy means "銀河" {ginga} but this wasn't used here. Same goes for Movie 8 Guide

It's possible Broly went around wrecking civilizations instead of outright destroying plantes, it's possible for Cell to replicate the same feat, especially when Freeza on his first form wasted and slaved almost the whole north Galaxy.

Going planet by planet is impossible, because according to his life span, there's absolutely no way he can tear up even half a single galaxy if he went planet by planet. Sure that was stated when Paragus took control over Broly but not before that as he was recklessly destroying worlds.

But i agree we should agree to disagree. I didn't really ignore all you said, i just said it could be either Broly destroying plantets or just civilization, but considering neither of us can disprove each other's interpretations, it's better to agree to disagree on this topic.

Alright I'll agree to disagree

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

We should agree to disagree now. This is too much and no one is getting anywhere. We both argued well in the end

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

What? He thinks he isn't amazing in comparison to Goku if anything. He's the youngest Ssj ever, and actually is proud of it while explaining it to Goten. In the Anime they even portray himself to be a prodigy of some sort, downgrading Goten completely. For Gohan to think he isn't impressive would make no sense in the slightest

Gohan was more cocky in the Buu arc. Gohan never bragged about his power or said he was exceptional before turning ssj2. He didn't realize how strong he was.

You're speculating that Gohan was "cocky" in the Buu Saga despite him getting ¿rusty?. That's speculation and isn't a valid argument. The support comes to my point here, and Gohan knows of his special being. Goku told everybody how special he is even, and he didn't brag about it in honesty.

He just said he speed up on Gohan, we can't say anything more than that. We don't know what speed he was using on Goku.

Cell in the Anime took much more time "Trying" to be beat Gohan.

No, Cell was beating ssj Gohan's butt almost the entire time. Goku blasted Cell's upper body off and even forced him to use a force field.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Cell was heavily holding back. Goku blasted Cell's body with Instant transmission:

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Goku attacked him at the critical point where Cell wasn't even guarded. Cell By far is above Goku. Gohan is far better than Goku

Gohan fought a much more serious Cell, and this is PROVEN by the fact that it's STATED Gohan as a Ssj is above Goku. Denying that is not even optional whatsoever. This is long been established by now.

He was going to do that because he thought Gohan wasn't good enough to challenge him. When he realized he was he decided to actually fight him.

Cell was going to Kill Gohan because:

1) He is annoyed. Goku told him Gohan is Stronger than him, thus Cell took it as a joke so he wanted to get rid of him as fast as possible so he could stop.

2) His main objective is Goku. Given Gohan hates to fight and hurt others (stated by Gohan himself), he didn't put forth his power. Gohan did so after he attacked serious Cell, who started stomping a Gohan who's above Ssj Goku.

It was the same Cell ssj Gohan fought. If you give Gohan the benefit of the doubt Cell was using more speed on him, but he never said he was using more power.

That's your own assumption. It was clearly shown to us that Cell > Gohan > Goku.

Gohan > Goku

Cell Powered and stomped a more powerful character than Goku

Cell against Gohan > Cell against Goku

Gohan > Goku is supported everywhere whatsoever. No matter what, it's a proof not just anything else. It's not up to argument