The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[BrolyKale]

Sorry but no. That's you speculating it. The entire show states that The DBZ universe consists of quadrants, represented by the words "galaxies", despite the translation leaning towards the word "areas". 

Even the guide implies that it's multiple galaxies

But you know what? Even without that, he's far beyond Cell, because to have time to shatter most of the galaxy in Goku's life span, being a Solar system buster only is nowhere near enough.

I don't really understand and I'm kinda lost... Did Broly destroy one galaxy or multiple galaxies?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Sorry but no. That's you speculating it. The entire show states that The DBZ universe consists of quadrants, represented by the words "galaxies", despite the translation leaning towards the word "areas". 

Even the guide implies that it's multiple galaxies

But you know what? Even without that, he's far beyond Cell, because to have time to shatter most of the galaxy in Goku's life span, being a Solar system buster only is nowhere near enough.

I don't really understand and I'm kinda lost... Did Broly destroy one galaxy or multiple galaxies?

Multiple Galaxies. People say it's a single galaxy, but if that's the case then they're implying the DBZ universe is 4 galaxies only which is debunked on multiple occasions

[BrolyKale]

Sorry but no. That's you speculating it. The entire show states that The DBZ universe consists of quadrants, represented by the words "galaxies", despite the translation leaning towards the word "areas". 

Even the guide implies that it's multiple galaxies

But you know what? Even without that, he's far beyond Cell, because to have time to shatter most of the galaxy in Goku's life span, being a Solar system buster only is nowhere near enough.

I don't really understand and I'm kinda lost... Did Broly destroy one galaxy or multiple galaxies?

Multiple Galaxies. People say it's a single galaxy, but if that's the case then they're implying the DBZ universe is 4 galaxies only which is debunked on multiple occasions

Oh so that's why we see one galaxy disappearing at the beginning and right after King Kai says "T- then, the Southern Galaxy really is being... At this rate... even my Northern Galaxy will be destroyed!" so Broly hadn't finished destroying the South "area" at that time, right? but completely destroyed it when he met Kakarot? and Paragus also talks about an "area" which proves that the Southern galaxy is composed with multiple galaxies
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Also, a bit more on what the movie means by "destroy": it's said that Broli "attacked" Planet Shamo, after which its inhabitants were moved to New Planet Vegeta. But Planet Shamo is clearly still physically there, since we see Broli actually blow it up midway through the movie. This seems consistent with the idea that Broli went around attacking planets by destroying the cities/civilizations on them, rather than blowing them up Freeza-style.

Also this doesn't make any sense, because we clearly see a galaxy disappearing at the beginning of the movie...

[dragon boss z]

You're speculating that Gohan was "cocky" in the Buu Saga despite him getting ¿rusty?. That's speculation and isn't a valid argument. The support comes to my point here, and Gohan knows of his special being. Goku told everybody how special he is even, and he didn't brag about it in honesty.

Gohan was cocky against Super Buu and thought he could take Dabura by himself. I wouldn't really call Buu saga cocky per say, but more aware of his power than cell games Gohan pre transformation.

Cell was heavily holding back. Goku blasted Cell's body with Instant transmission:
Goku attacked him at the critical point where Cell wasn't even guarded. Cell By far is above Goku. Gohan is far better than Goku

Cell is stronger than Goku, but probably only like 20% stronger.

Gohan fought a much more serious Cell, and this is PROVEN by the fact that it's STATED Gohan as a Ssj is above Goku. Denying that is not even optional whatsoever. This is long been established by now.

It was never stated. You keep using statements that if you look at them a certain way could imply Gohan is stronger as a regular ssj but there is no direct statement "Gohan is stronger than Goku". Cell never said "wow your son is actually stronger than you", and non of the Z fighters said that either when Gohan powered up. He very well could be stronger, but there is no solid statement that you claim exists.

Beerus flat out saying Frieza is stronger than base Goku is a solid statement. Yet from what the other guy said, you guys think base Goten is stronger than Frieza. So you yourself are going against a DIRECT statement. So you are being hypocritical here, except even more so because you are ignoring a direct statement of someone's power, but taking implications as facts.

Gohan > Goku is supported everywhere whatsoever. No matter what, it's a proof not just anything else. It's not up to argument

I disagree, going by feats Goku was better than Gohan. That doesn't mean Goku is definitely stronger, but it is evidence. And Cell asking to fight Goku again even after fighting Gohan is another piece of evidence.

And I could say the same thing about Frieza and base Goten. Every statement and feat implies Frieza is stronger and imo it isn't even an argument. Even first form Frieza could easily be above early base Goten.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Gohan was cocky against Super Buu and thought he could take Dabura by himself. I wouldn't really call Buu saga cocky per say, but more aware of his power than cell games Gohan pre transformation.

Gohan is aware of his power either way, and there's no evidence that he isn't, so that's speculation. Gohan just didn't believe he's superior to his own father who he sees as the strongest Character in the universe:



He imagines Goku to be at the top, always. So for Gohan, Goku "should" have been stronger though he isn't

Cell is stronger than Goku, but probably only like 20% stronger.

The Series begs to differ. Cell is fine with Goku having to eat a Senzu Bean even after Cell was exhausted. Cell also powered up to his full power, and it was so high that Goku felt doubts about Gohan's power as a Ssj2 based on his expression and way of speech.

It was never stated. You keep using statements that if you look at them a certain way could imply Gohan is stronger as a regular ssj but there is no direct statement "Gohan is stronger than Goku". Cell never said "wow your son is actually stronger than you", and non of the Z fighters said that either when Gohan powered up. He very well could be stronger, but there is no solid statement that you claim exists.

It clearly was showcased to us that he is stronger when he powered up and when Goku told Gohan how he is stronger than him. Guides also say Gohan is stronger than Goku as a Ssj generally, and Goku shows proof to everybody that Gohan is stronger than him by asking him on. It's an established argument. At this point you're just trying so hard to deny it because it doesn't meet your beliefs

Beerus flat out saying Frieza is stronger than base Goku is a solid statement. Yet from what the other guy said, you guys think base Goten is stronger than Frieza. So you yourself are going against a DIRECT statement. So you are being hypocritical here, except even more so because you are ignoring a direct statement of someone's power, but taking implications as facts.

There's a huge difference between a contradicted statement and an uncontrsdicted factual statement. What you want to believe is meaningless if it is not supported by factual material. I'm not being hypocritical as strong evidence suggest direct superiority of Base Goku to Frieza. It's quite obvious.

I'm not arguing this now. I'll touch on it later

I disagree, going by feats Goku was better than Gohan. That doesn't mean Goku is definitely stronger, but it is evidence. And Cell asking to fight Goku again even after fighting Gohan is another piece of evidence

At this point, you're ignoring everything I give you and repeat what you say without refuting anything. Goku's feats were all performed on a heavily suppressed Cell. Besides that, I'm not feeling like debating with you anymore given how much you're avoiding my refutes to you.

And I could say the same thing about Frieza and base Goten. Every statement and feat implies Frieza is stronger and imo it isn't even an argument. Even first form Frieza could easily be above early base Goten.

Every evidence out there (almost) prove that Goten > Frieza in base. First form Frieza beating Goten is absurd, and can easily be brought down.

Though Again, I'll touch on that later.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

You're speculating that Gohan was "cocky" in the Buu Saga despite him getting ¿rusty?. That's speculation and isn't a valid argument. The support comes to my point here, and Gohan knows of his special being. Goku told everybody how special he is even, and he didn't brag about it in honesty.

Gohan was cocky against Super Buu and thought he could take Dabura by himself. I wouldn't really call Buu saga cocky per say, but more aware of his power than cell games Gohan pre transformation.

Cell was heavily holding back. Goku blasted Cell's body with Instant transmission:
Goku attacked him at the critical point where Cell wasn't even guarded. Cell By far is above Goku. Gohan is far better than Goku

Cell is stronger than Goku, but probably only like 20% stronger.

Gohan fought a much more serious Cell, and this is PROVEN by the fact that it's STATED Gohan as a Ssj is above Goku. Denying that is not even optional whatsoever. This is long been established by now.

It was never stated. You keep using statements that if you look at them a certain way could imply Gohan is stronger as a regular ssj but there is no direct statement "Gohan is stronger than Goku". Cell never said "wow your son is actually stronger than you", and non of the Z fighters said that either when Gohan powered up. He very well could be stronger, but there is no solid statement that you claim exists.

Beerus flat out saying Frieza is stronger than base Goku is a solid statement. Yet from what the other guy said, you guys think base Goten is stronger than Frieza. So you yourself are going against a DIRECT statement. So you are being hypocritical here, except even more so because you are ignoring a direct statement of someone's power, but taking implications as facts.

Gohan > Goku is supported everywhere whatsoever. No matter what, it's a proof not just anything else. It's not up to argument

I disagree, going by feats Goku was better than Gohan. That doesn't mean Goku is definitely stronger, but it is evidence. And Cell asking to fight Goku again even after fighting Gohan is another piece of evidence.

And I could say the same thing about Frieza and base Goten. Every statement and feat implies Frieza is stronger and imo it isn't even an argument. Even first form Frieza could easily be above early base Goten.

You can Agree to Disagree if you want because there's no point in continuing either way. But if you still want to Continue, well.... I guess fine. But I'm not really supporting it

[dragon boss z]

The Series begs to differ. Cell is fine with Goku having to eat a Senzu Bean even after Cell was exhausted.

I think 20% is strong enough to where that makes sense. 20% is a pretty good difference. It would be like if Goku let Frieza had a senzu on namek. Goku would still win (ignoring the planet blowing up).

Cell also powered up to his full power, and it was so high that Goku felt doubts about Gohan's power as a Ssj2 based on his expression and way of speech.

Are you talking about the anime? Because in the manga no such thing happens. Goku just says Cell is finally using his full power.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It clearly was showcased to us that he is stronger when he powered up and when Goku told Gohan how he is stronger than him. Guides also say Gohan is stronger than Goku as a Ssj generally, and Goku shows proof to everybody that Gohan is stronger than him by asking him on. It's an established argument. At this point you're just trying so hard to deny it because it doesn't meet your beliefs

I already told you that I actually don't have a problem with ssj Gohan being a bit above Goku. It doesn't go against my beliefs. I'm arguing because you are twisting statements to suite your argument. If you don't agree with someones counters then say you don't agree,
Is there good evidence Gohan is stronger? Yes. However you are taking the evidence and twisting it to make it sound like facts.

At this point, you're ignoring everything I give you and repeat what you say without refuting anything. Goku's feats were all performed on a heavily suppressed Cell. Besides that, I'm not feeling like debating with you anymore given how much you're avoiding my refutes to you.

I literally went through all your arguments and countered. You are just choosing to ignore what I said. I could even give a brief summary.

guide book statement counter: doesn't specify if ssj or ssj2. plus the guide isn't even canon in the first place

cell speeding up: we don't even know if he used that speed on Goku or not

cell saying Goku's statement may of some truth: Cell later asks to fight Goku again

Gohan thought his dad didn't seem amazing: they can be equals and that would still make sense

Goku saying his son can win but he can't: Goku specifically says later on he was talking about Gohan's hidden power when he gets angry


Now I can see why you might still think Gohan is stronger, but saying I ignored your arguments and didn't try to refute anything is a lie and only a disservice to this debate.
If you don't agree with my counters, fine. But don't say I never made them even though the past few posts have been full of counters. This is clearly a case of you getting frustrated I don't agree with you and saying I'm ignoring things because the evidence you are giving you think clearly proves it as a fact. Just because I don't see it the same way doesn't mean I'm ignoring it, it just means I see it a different way.
Again, I think Gohan could very well be a bit stronger than Goku, but it isn't the 100% fact you make it out to be in my opinion. It may even be more likely than not, but more likely doesn't equal fact.

There's a huge difference between a contradicted statement and an uncontrsdicted factual statement. What you want to believe is meaningless if it is not supported by factual material. I'm not being hypocritical as strong evidence suggest direct superiority of Base Goku to Frieza. It's quite obvious.

Actually there really isn't anything proving base Goku is stronger than Frieza, though I could see that being the case. However base Goten absolutely is not. Base Goku could one shot base Goten, they aren't in the same league so even if base Goku was stronger than Frieza, Goten isn't.

Every evidence out there (almost) prove that Goten > Frieza in base. First form Frieza beating Goten is absurd, and can easily be brought down.

Though Again, I'll touch on that later.

I would like that evidence.

Imo I would rather debate this because personally I think Gohan could be stronger than Goku, but I 100% think Frieza stomps base Goten without contest.

[Polyphase Avatron]

If Jiren and Daishinkan were to go head to head both using their full power, how well would Jiren do? Would he be able to put up any kind of fight or just get one-shotted?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

I think 20% is strong enough to where that makes sense. 20% is a pretty good difference. It would be like if Goku let Frieza had a senzu on namek. Goku would still win (ignoring the planet blowing up).

What? No. If Goku gave Frieza a Senzu there's no proof he would win but it's more logical he'd lose due to his exhaustion and injuries, unlike Cell

Are you talking about the anime? Because in the manga no such thing happens. Goku just says Cell is finally using his full power.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

The Anime shows it better, where everyone shivers from Cell's power placing doubts on Gohan. Even in the Manga Goku's expression changes when Cell uses his full power while before that he was fine either as supposedly Gohan is stronger

I already told you that I actually don't have a problem with ssj Gohan being a bit above Goku. It doesn't go against my beliefs. I'm arguing because you are twisting statements to suite your argument. If you don't agree with someones counters then say you don't agree,
Is there good evidence Gohan is stronger? Yes. However you are taking the evidence and twisting it to make it sound like facts.

Then stop arguing about it over and over as it makes others believe you're controversial on the topic, lol. Also, I'm not twisting anything. The evidence in front of us is almost factual, because it's a direct Implification shown to us, so no one is suiting any statement at all.

I literally went through all your arguments and countered. You are just choosing to ignore what I said. I could even give a brief summary.

guide book statement counter: doesn't specify if ssj or ssj2. plus the guide isn't even canon in the first place

Not canon in the first place? That's quite the speculation you made. It's an Offical guide dedicated to the Manga made by Bird Studio and contributed by his staff as much as possible. I only have the Spanish pages though, it was published in Spanish and French anyways. Regardless, this guide is as canon, if not more, than Daizenshuu. Also, fans do not decide what guide is canon and what's not; all guides as usable as long as they're not overall contradictory

cell speeding up: we don't even know if he used that speed on Goku or not

Yes we do know. If Gohan > Goku, and Cell > Goku, And Gohan blocked most of Cell's attacks casually at first then he speeded up despite Cell intending to Kill Gohan, then Gohan dodged and attacked a Cell who's supposedly interested in Gohan's latent power that he's trying to pull it whatsoever by any means, then Cell against Gohan > Cell against Goku

It doesn't need much thinking. It goes by logic. I stated this before, but here you are repeating the same thing. But I'm fine with it, I don't really care or give much thought to it

cell saying Goku's statement may of some truth: Cell later asks to fight Goku again

His enjoyment truth Goku was far better. For one he still underestimated Gohan, and he thought to some extent Gohan was more powerful than Goku, but it might be that Goku was either "bluffing" or his main objective is fighting Goku. Another thing which makes sense is how inexperienced Gohan is which is confirmed, making this absolutely unenjoyable. He also despises the idea of fighting a Kid, shown by him

Gohan thought his dad didn't seem amazing: they can be equals and that would still make sense

Then Gohan would still think he's "impressive". Gohan needs to be above him to an extent so that he would think he's not impressive at all. He even thought he is holding back after all that, because he can't imagine himself being above his father.

Goku saying his son can win but he can't: Goku specifically says later on he was talking about Gohan's hidden power when he gets angry

No one is saying Ssj Gohan is stronger than Cell. I don't even remember saying that. I'm only implying that Goku showed everybody that Ssj Gohan is above him

All these refutes have been "refuted" before and you repeated them now. What do you suggest it this?

You also forgot the obvious evidence out there:

[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

This is so direct I don't see why would you even argue it in the first place

Now I can see why you might still think Gohan is stronger, but saying I ignored your arguments and didn't try to refute anything is a lie and only a disservice to this debate. If you don't agree with my counters, fine. But don't say I never made them even though the past few posts have been full of counters. This is clearly a case of you getting frustrated I don't agree with you and saying I'm ignoring things because the evidence you are giving you think clearly proves it as a fact.

Why would I be frustrated? It's not like topic is a trigger to flame war or anything. You did ignore some over the course of the debate. I'll assume you didn't pay attention to them not because you "ignored but probably didn't "interpret" or "understand" what said argument is about. Also, I know you interpret things differently, but they're too obvious. Regardless, I couldn't care less given that you agree with Gohan > Goku so that's all fine in the end and no need to continue at all.

Just because I don't see it the same way doesn't mean I'm ignoring it, it just means I see it a different way.
Again, I think Gohan could very well be a bit stronger than Goku, but it isn't the 100% fact you make it out to be in my opinion. It may even be more likely than not, but more likely doesn't equal fact.

You are interpreting the evidences in a way so that it doesn't meet its actual purpose at all for some reason. Just take the statements as they are unless they're contradicted. You disagree with them, despite being too obvious (hence they are rendered as facts given how most people agreed with this when I debate them since there's nothing to deny or differently interpret), because in your opinion they are different.

Though Again, I don't care since this is already over as you agree with Gohan > Goku and that's all I need

Actually there really isn't anything proving base Goku is stronger than Frieza, though I could see that being the case. However base Goten absolutely is not. Base Goku could one shot base Goten, they aren't in the same league so even if base Goku was stronger than Frieza, Goten isn't.

I would like that evidence.

Imo I would rather debate this because personally I think Gohan could be stronger than Goku, but I 100% think Frieza stomps base Goten without contest.

I'll debate this later on. I'll bring the topic myself and debate it as much as possible if needed. Base Goku and Base Goten > Final Form Frieza is easily correct and naedly debatable, but it's controvertial. I'll debate it later on, both topics

[Ice85]

If Jiren and Daishinkan were to go head to head both using their full power, how well would Jiren do? Would he be able to put up any kind of fight or just get one-shotted?

Based on the information we know, Jiren would get one-shottted by Daishinkan. While Jiren is indeed stronger than Belmond and perhaps Beerus, Daishinkan is way stronger than even the angels. There's no contest.

[jeffbr92]

Based on the information we know, Jiren would get one-shottted by Daishinkan. While Jiren is indeed stronger than Belmond and perhaps Beerus, Daishinkan is way stronger than even the angels. There's no contest.

I agree, I don't see Jiren being stronger than Whis for example

[dragon boss z]

What? No. If Goku gave Frieza a Senzu there's no proof he would win but it's more logical he'd lose due to his exhaustion and injuries, unlike Cell

Well Cell does have an advantage since he can regenerate, so we should keep that in mind.

The Anime shows it better, where everyone shivers from Cell's power placing doubts on Gohan. Even in the Manga Goku's expression changes when Cell uses his full power while before that he was fine either as supposedly Gohan is stronger

I usually go by the manga. I agree the anime does imply Gohan is stronger more than the manga does.

Not canon in the first place? That's quite the speculation you made. It's an Offical guide dedicated to the Manga made by Bird Studio and contributed by his staff as much as possible. I only have the Spanish pages though, it was published in Spanish and French anyways. Regardless, this guide is as canon, if not more, than Daizenshuu. Also, fans do not decide what guide is canon and what's not; all guides as usable as long as they're not overall contradictory

More canon than the Daizenshuu? This site says the Daizenshuu is the most official of the guides. And when you say it was published in Spanish and French, do you mean only in those count? If it wasn't published in Japan I don't see how it can be canon. I would even take the Daizenshuu with a grain of salt. Guides are just guides, they are gospel.

Yes we do know. If Gohan > Goku, and Cell > Goku, And Gohan blocked most of Cell's attacks casually at first then he speeded up despite Cell intending to Kill Gohan, then Gohan dodged and attacked a Cell who's supposedly interested in Gohan's latent power that he's trying to pull it whatsoever by any means, then Cell against Gohan > Cell against Goku

It doesn't need much thinking. It goes by logic. I stated this before, but here you are repeating the same thing. But I'm fine with it, I don't really care or give much thought to it

You can't use Gohan being greater than Goku as an argument where the main topic is if Gohan is stronger than Goku or not. Even if it is true that is improper debating.

His enjoyment truth Goku was far better. For one he still underestimated Gohan, and he thought to some extent Gohan was more powerful than Goku, but it might be that Goku was either "bluffing" or his main objective is fighting Goku. Another thing which makes sense is how inexperienced Gohan is which is confirmed, making this absolutely unenjoyable. He also despises the idea of fighting a Kid, shown by him

Ya, this is one of the things that might be possible. Cell thinks Goku is more fun to fight because he is a better fighter.

Then Gohan would still think he's "impressive".

Only if he thinks his own power is impressive.

Gohan needs to be above him to an extent so that he would think he's not impressive at all. He even thought he is holding back after all that, because he can't imagine himself being above his father.

But he didn't say his dad wasn't impressive, he sad wasn't amazing. Why would he be amazed at his dad fighting on his level?

All these refutes have been "refuted" before and you repeated them now. What do you suggest it this?

I only repeated them because you said I never made them in the first place so I quickly went over them again to prove that I did make them, whether you agree with them or not.

You also forgot the obvious evidence out there:

[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

This is so direct I don't see why would you even argue it in the first place

I do think this is the best evidence. It is one of the reasons I think Gohan may be a bit stronger.

Why would I be frustrated? It's not like topic is a trigger to flame war or anything. You did ignore some over the course of the debate. I'll assume you didn't pay attention to them not because you "ignored but probably didn't "interpret" or "understand" what said argument is about. Also, I know you interpret things differently, but they're too obvious. Regardless, I couldn't care less given that you agree with Gohan > Goku so that's all fine in the end and no need to continue at all.

Well you were saying I was ignoring your arguments and not trying to counter them makes it seem like you were. I have no problem with you saying "I don't agree with those arguments" but saying I didn't even attempt to make them is kind of insulting consider I spent my time to respond to you trying to have a debate on the matter.

You are interpreting the evidences in a way so that it doesn't meet its actual purpose at all for some reason. Just take the statements as they are unless they're contradicted. You disagree with them, despite being too obvious (hence they are rendered as facts given how most people agreed with this when I debate them since there's nothing to deny or differently interpret), because in your opinion they are different.

Though Again, I don't care since this is already over as you agree with Gohan > Goku and that's all I need

Ya in terms of power I could easily see Gohan having the edge, but in a fight I do believe Goku would be the one to come out on top, not including rage boosts. He just has too many abilities and is too good of a fighter to lose. If it wasn't for a plot hole he even would of beat Cell when he blew his head off.

I'll debate this later on. I'll bring the topic myself and debate it as much as possible if needed. Base Goku and Base Goten > Final Form Frieza is easily correct and naedly debatable, but it's controvertial. I'll debate it later on, both topics

What do you mean by later on?

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

Why Do you still argue? We're already done here. This should be considered the last reply from both me and you

Well Cell does have an advantage since he can regenerate, so we should keep that in mind.

That's still speculation. You're trying to keep your beliefs correct in any possible way. Cell in general is stronger by far. That's evident enough

I usually go by the manga. I agree the anime does imply Gohan is stronger more than the manga does.

You could go with both since you can see both views onto the matter and many unexplained things can be explained in the other or supported, so both should be used.

More canon than the Daizenshuu? This site says the Daizenshuu is the most official of the guides

I don't care what Kanzenshuu actually claims and J don't actually believe that Kanzenshuu states that since Chozenshuu for example is just as credible. I'm also saying it'd as canon if not more more than Daizenshuu. Also Kanzenshuu not pointing out this guide is very normal, since herms and other moderators aren't mostly aware of it but that doesn't bring its credibility down a bit since Kanzenshuu is not an Offical, absolute source to go by. It's the most trusted DBZ fan base and nothing more. This Guide is created by Bird Studio and published by Shueisha. That's good enough

And when you say it was published in Spanish and French, do you mean only in those count? If it wasn't published in Japan I don't see how it can be canon.

No. The available scans for us are all translated into Spanish and French. Japanese copies are not visible by us or something, so it is "published" in Spanish and French but the information is undoubtly all from official and authorized people who Akira himself states they know more than him in the show by far, his staff mainly speaking. Fans can't go and decide what guide is canon and what's not, but all of them are usable, as they are all made so that we use them for building up more knowledge about the show and gather new information. All Guides are usable, you don't decide what to use and what to ignore.

I would even take the Daizenshuu with a grain of salt. Guides are just guides, they are gospel

Fine, you can ignore it, but you can't disregard its credibility whatsoever. Guides, from their name, act as guidance for us to know more about the show, so their information is far better than what we believe, unless directly contradicted. That's All, so we don't go and decide what's credible and what's Not based on our own beliefs, speculations or opinions

You can't use Gohan being greater than Goku as an argument where the main topic is if Gohan is stronger than Goku or not. Even if it is true that is improper debating.

Actually no. This topic is divided: One is about Gohan vs Goku, and one is about whether Cell fought Goku with the same strength as he did against Gohan. So it's usable. If logic works out correctly then it isn't a reference to be ignored in any possible way or aspect.

Then Gohan would still think he's "impressive".

Only if he thinks his own power is impressive.

As evident, Gohan is proud of himself and knows of his power. He knows he's a powerful character in comparison to his age, and this is shown in the Buu Saga and was never once contradicted. He just sees his father as some sort of unbeatable figure, so he speculates "no way I'm stronger so he must be holding back". Also, you can say someone is impressive despite being equal to them but NOT "not impressive". Gohan is clearly above Goku. He is not impressed by his power, which is a sign of Goku being weaker. Gohan couldn't believe it, thus he concluded by "Goku just be holding back". I don't see how much clearer can it get

But he didn't say his dad wasn't impressive, he sad wasn't amazing. Why would he be amazed at his dad fighting on his level?

When someone says that the character in front of them is not impressive or doesn't credit them, then that means they're above them

Goku states that Kefla's base form is "outstanding" and "can't feel a limit to her power" and that's true, she's above SsjG Goku, but at the same time she's weaker than SsjB Goku. Same goes in Gohan's case, where both him and Goku are Super Saiyans yet Goku isn't impressive compared him. Saying they're equal is an assumption and/or opinionated, but saying Gohan is above Goku is far too supported.

I only repeated them because you said I never made them in the first place so I quickly went over them again to prove that I did make them, whether you agree with them or not.

I didn't say you never made them. But I said you ignored my refutes to these refutes.

Either way it doesn't matter now, this debate is long over

I do think this is the best evidence. It is one of the reasons I think Gohan may be a bit stronger.

The fact that you consider it is relieving for me. That's all I need

Well you were saying I was ignoring your arguments and not trying to counter them makes it seem like you were. I have no problem with you saying "I don't agree with those arguments" but saying I didn't even attempt to make them is kind of insulting consider I spent my time to respond to you trying to have a debate on the matter.

I did counter them All, and that's what I'm basically saying, that you're ignoring these counters. I am saying "I don't agree" but I never say them without arguing against these disagreed arguments, and literally never, so it's probably more annoying to me than you. Also, I'm not really insulting. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just blunt in debates. Actually, I'm far more blunt on other communities than now, because language is restricted by Kanzenshuu rules. In debates, I purposedly try to be blunt (not because I'm rude, but because when I'm blunt, I can express all my knowledge as much as possible).

Ya in terms of power I could easily see Gohan having the edge, but in a fight I do believe Goku would be the one to come out on top, not including rage boosts. He just has too many abilities and is too good of a fighter to lose. If it wasn't for a plot hole he even would of beat Cell when he blew his head off.

Well, we did agree to this in the first place. So I don't see why we're continuing. This should end it already

What do you mean by later on?

I'll be bringing the same topics again (and possibly by then, I'll have already made a huge thread about it. I constantly make threads about misconceptions), and get it on the Versus thread to debate with even bigger audience and more debaters. It's better than way

This topic is exhaustive, and it take too much time. Apparently, I don't have much time to argue on such long debates, especially these days. So I'll be bringing a horde of debates in my free time, and without a doubt this is included.

[dragon boss z]

Why Do you still argue? We're already done here. This should be considered the last reply from both me and you

This is a bit hypocritical. You ask why I argue and then you wright all of that. It kind of seems like you think you are entitled to the last response. If you want to end a debate you should just make a short summary of you final points and make a conclusion. Not ask why are you still arguing, then go on to write a long essay of an argument that is begging to be countered, lol.

My final view point is the anime seems to imply more strongly that Gohan is stronger than it does in the manga. Power wise Goku<=Gohan, but Goku would win in an all out fight minus power boosts because he is a better fighter. Whether Cell powered up against Gohan or not Cell was above both ssj Goku and Gohan but Goku gave him a more "fun" fight.

[jeffbr92]

Equal power, limited stamina

- 100% Mutenroshi vs. Super Gotenks
- Nuova Shenron vs. Krillin
- Recoome vs. Android 17 (Cell arc)

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

This is a bit hypocritical. You ask why I argue and then you wright all of that. It kind of seems like you think you are entitled to the last response

It would be cool if you were respectful. Regardless, I'm not entitled to anything. I just retold you that because I told you this before and you didn't highlight it so I had to. Reply as many times as you want, I did say this will be my last reply.

Funny how you also asked me questions yet you also want this to end.

If you want to end a debate you should just make a short summary of you final points and make a conclusion. Not ask why are you still arguing, then go on to write a long essay of an argument that is begging to be countered, lol.

This is not begging to he countered, since it's already been argued. It would be nice it you Read my reply before starting to quote me, so you could understand my intentions and what I'm talking about. You yourself implied that you want me to counter or keep arguing, and at some instances you asked somethings, so it wouldn't be appreciative and decent for me to ignore all that. I summarized my points in that last counter, so feel free to write anything you want because as I said, that was my last reply regarding the debated issue.

My final view point is the anime seems to imply more strongly that Gohan is stronger than it does in the manga. Power wise Goku<=Gohan, but Goku would win in an all out fight minus power boosts because he is a better fighter. Whether Cell powered up against Gohan or not Cell was above both ssj Goku and Gohan but Goku gave him a more "fun" fight.

Ok

[dragon boss z]

It would be cool if you were respectful. Regardless, I'm not entitled to anything. I just retold you that because I told you this before and you didn't highlight it so I had to. Reply as many times as you want, I did say this will be my last reply.

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful I was just calling what I saw. You started with you wanted to stop replying and then followed with a bunch of replies telling me not to reply back.
The only reason you are taking it as disrespectful I assume is because you think your post actually wasn't hypocritical or didn't sound self entitled. However if someone says something hypocritical in a debate it isn't considered disrespectful to point it out. You might as well say calling out someone for making logical fallacies is also disrespectful.
There are ways I could of made those statements disrespectful but I made them as respectful as possible.

Funny how you also asked me questions yet you also want this to end.

I never said you shouldn't answer my questions. Also I didn't say I didn't want anything to end. Not saying I do or don't, but I never said I did so you are assuming things.

This is not begging to he countered, since it's already been argued. It would be nice it you Read my reply before starting to quote me, so you could understand my intentions and what I'm talking about. You yourself implied that you want me to counter or keep arguing, and at some instances you asked somethings, so it wouldn't be appreciative and decent for me to ignore all that. I summarized my points in that last counter, so feel free to write anything you want because as I said, that was my last reply regarding the debated issue.

Ya and that's not a problem. But if you want to end a debate while the other person still has something to say then you either let the debate end with their response or you make a small conclusion post. You don't say, "we are done now I get to have the last post" which is pretty much what you said.

[dragon boss z]

Equal power, limited stamina

- 100% Mutenroshi vs. Super Gotenks
- Nuova Shenron vs. Krillin
- Recoome vs. Android 17 (Cell arc)

- Roshi is a better fighter and has better techniques
- I don't know much about Nuova
-17 outlasts him

[jeffbr92]

- Roshi is a better fighter and has better techniques
- I don't know much about Nuova
-17 outlasts him

- But his MAX Power form can become tiring also he can't fly and Gotenks has some good techniques too like Galactic Donuts and Super Kamikaze Ghosts Attack.
- He has some great fire powers and can raise his temperature to more than 6,000 degrees, making him hotter than the Sun.
- 17 sure has the advantage of having infinite stamina, but Recoome is very durable, I agree that the android would win, but not that easy

[dragon boss z]

- But his MAX Power form can become tiring also he can't fly and Gotenks has some good techniques too like Galactic Donuts and Super Kamikaze Ghosts Attack.
- He has some great fire powers and can raise his temperature to more than 6,000 degrees, making him hotter than the Sun.
- 17 sure has the advantage of having infinite stamina, but Recoome is very durable, I agree that the android would win, but not that easy

- That's true, but Gotenks also only has 5 minutes and is really cocky. No doubt Roshi will land one of his moves. If Gotenks is completely serious and fights smart he could win.
- Does he have regen?
- Ya, aslo I think his barrier could protect him from Recoome's attacks which will make Recoome tired without doing any damage.