Zombie wrote:So, for anyone that believes the non god base theory, how strong are Goku and Vegeta in the Champa arc in base?
They were weaker than Freeza in Beerus Arc, but they are probably stronger than him in Champa Arc. Golden Freeza is in a totally different dimension.
LightBing wrote:I thought he had his Ultimate power in SSJ but looking at the facts thread, he definitely seems weaker. How much is the question.
Once Gohan mastered Super Saiyan, I think Freeza Reborn Arc is the first time he has issues with the form. Even taking that into account, I have him about as strong as when he fought Dabra.
Zombie wrote:I see 100 million as the maximum power they can have and still lose against Freeza.
I don't think you understood my question. I'm asking about their base without the god power. There's no way Piccolo is over Super Boo or Gotenks without any statement on the matter.
I understood the question. I believe Goku only had "God power" in base during the fight with Beerus. All or most information after contradicts him having it further, including the tournament that's currently happening. The most telling is this direct comparison statement from Whis:
Spoiler:
Episode 18
Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."
I can see Piccolo powering up that far without any statements, simply because he's still very far of what matters (God Tier). There's precedent of weaker characters getting stronger but nobody saying anything, because they don't matter in the new status quo. For example the humans in the android arc, I think even Gohan before the RoSaT.
It's very hard to low-ball Piccolo even further.
In RoF we have:
Piccolo < Base Gohan < SSJ Gohan < First Form Freeza < Final Form Freeza < Base Goku
It depends were one put's each character at. But at the very least, Piccolo currently received a significant power up.
What do you think?
The new status quo or standard point does make sense. Even if Piccolo was significantly stronger than he was in the Buu Arc, it wouldn't matter because the standard of strength to stay relevant in the show continues to increase to the point where God power is a necessity to keep up. Golden Freeza is the exception to this, because he never had God Ki, and was just an insanely powerful beast.
Zombie wrote:I see 100 million as the maximum power they can have and still lose against Freeza.
I don't think you understood my question. I'm asking about their base without the god power. There's no way Piccolo is over Super Boo or Gotenks without any statement on the matter.
I understood the question. I believe Goku only had "God power" in base during the fight with Beerus. All or most information after contradicts him having it further, including the tournament that's currently happening. The most telling is this direct comparison statement from Whis:
Spoiler:
Episode 18
Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."
I can see Piccolo powering up that far without any statements, simply because he's still very far of what matters (God Tier). There's precedent of weaker characters getting stronger but nobody saying anything, because they don't matter in the new status quo. For example the humans in the android arc, I think even Gohan before the RoSaT.
It's very hard to low-ball Piccolo even further.
In RoF we have:
Piccolo < Base Gohan < SSJ Gohan < First Form Freeza < Final Form Freeza < Base Goku
It depends were one put's each character at. But at the very least, Piccolo currently received a significant power up.
What do you think?
It's a possibility. Care yo share your list? You picked my interest.
It depends on whether or not Piccolo is stronger than Good Buu or not. Most would probably say Good Buu hasn't gotten any stronger since DBZ. So is Piccolo weaker or stronger than him?
Personally regardless I'd say he was a similar level to Buu now so that'd make him SSJ2 tier which to be seems about right.
Final Form Frieza is at least stronger than (Kid) Buu. Sorbet told him that Goku had beaten Buu but that didn't stop him from being confident that if he trained he'd be able to beat him.
Base Goku (God power) > Final Form Frieza > Buu > Good Buu >? Piccolo > Base Goku
Zombie wrote:So for anyone that believes the non god base theory, how strong are Goku and Vegeta in the Champa arc in base?
BoG: 80 - 100 million.
U6: ?
I don't see they that strong in BoG, so I would say that in Champa Arc they're around 90 million.
Bullza wrote:Final Form Frieza is at least stronger than (Kid) Buu. Sorbet told him that Goku had beaten Buu but that didn't stop him from being confident that if he trained he'd be able to beat him.
Base Goku (God power) > Final Form Frieza > Buu > Good Buu >? Piccolo > Base Goku
I agree with Final Form Freeza being somewhat above a SSJ3-tier, but people will insist in say that he in this form is already stronger to defeat a fully powered Vegetto and this is something that I highly doubt as I don't think Base God Goku is above Vegetto either.
And for Piccolo, I think he stronger than any SSJ2-tier in Android Arc to the Boo Arc, not past from that.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
The base Goku that fought Beerus in the cave was much stronger than angry Vegeta. He'd be waaaay above a 1, way above.
Frieza was at least able to keep up with Goku and put up a reasonably good fight against him so you'd think he'd also be considerably above a 1.
I'd go with Final Form Frieza being between SSJ2 and SSJ3 Vegito. I'd definitely say he was stronger than angry SSJ2 Vegeta who people already talked about ages ago possibly being stronger than Vegito.
Hugo Boss wrote:Once Gohan mastered Super Saiyan, I think Freeza Reborn Arc is the first time he has issues with the form. Even taking that into account, I have him about as strong as when he fought Dabra.
Do you subscribe to him being SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabra? I think he was SSJ, which maybe makes the gap too small. Piccolo should be at least Cell Jr level at the time, Gohan in base was stronger than that. In SSJ he's even higher leaving little room in my opinion.
Zombie wrote:It's a possibility. Care yo share your list? You picked my interest.
I haven't done a list, yet. I don't remember the RoF arc well enough and I'm still pondering were Gohan was during that arc. Which is very important as a starting point.
Still, assuming Gohan was equal to his SSJ self during the Cell Games( I'm trying to bring him down), ballpark numbers:
Beerus - 1000
Piccolo (RoF) - 8
Piccolo (Current) - 48
Assault Frost - 55
Final Form Frost - 90
Tired Frost - 60
Base Goku - 55
SSJ Goku - 200
SSB Goku - 700
Something like this... Freeza should be weaker than Frost, with the exception of his Golden Form that takes him to God Tier Levels.
Having SSJ Gohan be on par with his CG self seems impossible to me. You have to fit Piccolo's gap with Tagoma, Tagoma's gap with Ginyu and Ginyu's gap with SSJ Gohan.
Zombie wrote:Having SSJ Gohan be on par with his CG self seems impossible to me. You have to fit Piccolo's gap with Tagoma, Tagoma's gap with Ginyu and Ginyu's gap with SSJ Gohan.
Yeah, it makes the gaps too short. Besides making Gohan SSJ power up measly. I really don't remember RoF that well, only the disappointment of building up Tagoma to replace him right after with Ginyu.
If Goku can truly alternate between two base powers, then why would he use his normal power to test Monaka? One of the key points people made about the theory is that Goku had a white gold aura when he used his god power against Freeza but didn't have one in the tournament.
He's exactly the same there as he was fighting Botamo and Frost.
Who can say? I mean this theory more than likely has nothing to it. Why would the writer/s make it this confusing to begin with when it's just a kids show? It's unnecessary complicated.
Maybe we're giving them too much credit and it really is just bad writing and we are supposed to accept that Piccolo has become stronger than Frieza and he's God tier.
It wouldn't be the first time a character has powered up drastically more than they should have. I'd like to think there was more to it but there probably isn't.
Is it not possible that if Goku or Vegeta in their base form adopted the same strategy as Piccolo that the fight would have played out the same way?
Sure they had to transform to Super Saiyan to beat Frost but whose to say that if they had continued to fight in base form that they'd have been instantly steamrolled? Maybe they could have put up a better fight than Piccolo.
If Goku can truly alternate between two base powers, then why would he use his normal power to test Monaka? One of the key points people made about the theory is that Goku had a white gold aura when he used his god power against Freeza but didn't have one in the tournament.
He's exactly the same there as he was fighting Botamo and Frost.
If it is of interest to you I see it from a different perspective: that is exactly why I doubt he's using his full power there, since Goku is anything but serious against Botamo and Frost and this Goku looks like, indeed, "the Goku who fought Botamo and Frost".
We know for sure that a "serious" non-SS Goku is supposed to have a big aura - and some particular feats, I mean, just compare the effects of his fight with Fourth Form Freeza to the coreography of Botamo and Frost vs. Goku - and it's lacking here.
Both of which are lacking for the carefree Goku that fought the first two matches in the tournament.
P.S. Besides, it's been heavily foreshadowed in the latest episode that Monaka may in fact be quite weak and Beerus may have brought him along for some reason other than his power.
Hugo Boss wrote:Once Gohan mastered Super Saiyan, I think Freeza Reborn Arc is the first time he has issues with the form. Even taking that into account, I have him about as strong as when he fought Dabra.
Do you subscribe to him being SSJ or SSJ2 against Dabra? I think he was SSJ, which maybe makes the gap too small. Piccolo should be at least Cell Jr level at the time, Gohan in base was stronger than that. In SSJ he's even higher leaving little room in my opinion.
I think Gohan was a Super Saiyan against Dabra. I also think Base Gohan and Piccolo have about the same power. In Cell Arc, Piccolo trained to the point where he became much stronger than No.17, but from then on we have nothing concrete.
If Goku can truly alternate between two base powers, then why would he use his normal power to test Monaka? One of the key points people made about the theory is that Goku had a white gold aura when he used his god power against Freeza but didn't have one in the tournament.
He's exactly the same there as he was fighting Botamo and Frost.
If it is of interest to you I see it from a different perspective: that is exactly why I doubt he's using his full power there, since Goku is anything but serious against Botamo and Frost and this Goku looks like, indeed, "the Goku who fought Botamo and Frost".
We know for sure that a "serious" non-SS Goku is supposed to have a big aura - and some particular feats, I mean, just compare the effects of his fight with Fourth Form Freeza to the coreography of Botamo and Frost vs. Goku - and it's lacking here.
Both of which are lacking for the carefree Goku that fought the first two matches in the tournament.
P.S. Besides, it's been heavily foreshadowed in the latest episode that Monaka may in fact be quite weak and Beerus may have brought him along for some reason other than his power.
I just can't buy it. He is using a power barely over Namek Freeza to test out Monaka, a supposedly god tier fighter.
Bullza wrote:Who can say? I mean this theory more than likely has nothing to it. Why would the writer/s make it this confusing to begin with when it's just a kids show? It's unnecessary complicated.
Maybe we're giving them too much credit and it really is just bad writing and we are supposed to accept that Piccolo has become stronger than Frieza and he's God tier.
This. When you have to magically give a character a new power or ability in your own mind to make the plot/story of a fictional universe make logical sense it's just bad writing. The writers could have chosen to literally make any reason they want for these power fluctuations , but instead so far just flat out ignoring it screams poor attention to detail or just not really caring about consistency at all.
For now i view base goku as strong as his ssj3 self and ssj increases his power many times. And ssj blue skyrockets his power to 85/90% of beerus.
Taking in account that goku mentioned uub, i assume that the DBZ last chapter will play out the same way, so base goku would be at ssj3 tier. ssj much higher, enough to one shot all buu saga level foes(including buuhan) and ssj blue again puts him very close to beerus in power, aka another immense power boost.
So barring that, id say my PL list would be something like that:
U6
Botamo:namek saga level, perhaps close to freeza back on namek?
Frost:good buu/kid buu level in his final form
Magetta:kid buu level starting and keeps increasing, possibly above buuhan.
Cabba:no idea yet
Hit:no idea yet(tho i suspect he will be god tier level)
U7
Goku: base ssj3 tier/ssj above buuhan, possibly at ssj1 vegetto level?/ssj blue 90% of beerus(far beyond vegetto)
Vegeta:same as goku
Piccolo:between ssj2 and ssj3
Monaka:No idea atm
buutenks wrote:For now i view base goku as strong as his ssj3 self and ssj increases his power many times. And ssj blue skyrockets his power to 85/90% of beerus.
Taking in account that goku mentioned uub, i assume that the DBZ last chapter will play out the same way, so base goku would be at ssj3 tier. ssj much higher, enough to one shot all buu saga level foes(including buuhan) and ssj blue again puts him very close to beerus in power, aka another immense power boost.
So barring that, id say my PL list would be something like that:
U6
Botamo:namek saga level, perhaps close to freeza back on namek?
Frost:good buu/kid buu level in his final form
Magetta:kid buu level starting and keeps increasing, possibly above buuhan.
Cabba:no idea yet
Hit:no idea yet(tho i suspect he will be god tier level)
U7
Goku: base ssj3 tier/ssj above buuhan, possibly at ssj1 vegetto level?/ssj blue 90% of beerus(far beyond vegetto)
Vegeta:same as goku
Piccolo:between ssj2 and ssj3
Monaka:No idea atm
This!
Or Goku simply returning to Base lower than Freeza stance.(Unlikely)
For Piccolo to get anywhere close to Goku's base power Goku must be at most a SSJ3 tier in Base which makes perfect sense with his EOZ fight with Uub.
But I still don't get how would Goku lower his base to that level when he was certainly a beast against Freeza in ROF just in base.... It would make sense to train his SSJ as being very efficient form to use... but why would lower his base so drastically?
English is not my first language!
I'm still waiting for Dragon Ball in Super...
I simply view final form freeza to be ssj3 tier also, above kid buu but below buutenks and such.
Plus vegeta said they are getting close to their limits,so i suspect they didnt really power up that much during the 3 year training period.
Plus again whis stated the base saiyans are minuscule compared to the god level. So while they indeed trained afterwards, i dont think they jumped from being very small compared to god level to being close to god level while in base.
That would also mean ssj is much much stronger than base form and in turn ssj blue is far beyond ssj form.
