The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[PFM18]

Gohan VS Master Roshi.

Definitely Master Roshi IMO. Gohan is weaker than my little sister.

You really have a problem with this whole Gohan strength thing huh?

If anything it's Piccolo that was made into a weakling. They even though it was OK for him to be stomped by a guy who was Zarbon level and got beat up for 4 months. In the U6 tournament everyone disrespected him and in the TOP he didn't do that much. Even at Gohan's lowest moment he was treated better than Piccolo, and that's saying something considering Gohan was treated pretty bad as well.

I don't see how either of them were treated poorly. He was stomped by a guy who was stated to be as strong as Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga. That only makes sense for him to lose to somebody of that caliber right? In the Tournament of Power he was more of a strategist and if you made everybody "powerful" it would diminish the power of the other characters and this isnt any different than in the Buu saga. In fact, he is portrayed as far less weak as in the Buu saga.

Gohan defeated the U6 Namekians that directly lead to the Universe's erasure. He also aided in the defeat of Dyspo who is one of the strongest in the tournament. Gohan was easily one of the top 10 strongest fighters in the tournament. If he would have been any more powerful it wouldn't have made any sense considering he only trained for like a day and is now relegated to a more academic/father role rather than a father. You can only have so many insane power-ups for Gohan in the series. This was arguably the biggest one

[dragon boss z]

He was stomped by a guy who was stated to be as strong as Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.

That was never stated. In the actual translation Gohan just says "he may be hiding power similar to my own" or something along those lines. And the fact Tagoma was stomped by an out of shape ssj Gohan is proof he is nowhere near mystic Gohan level. Tagoma is weaker than rusty ssj Gohan, who should definitely be weaker than Cell.

Even if Tagoma was mystic Gohan level, which would make absolutely no sense, it still makes Piccolo, and everyone else look bad because he reached mystic Gohan tier from being beaten up for 4 months while everyone else trained for decades and had special training, fusions, transformations, and still couldn't reach that level. So that's like saying Tagoma's potential is greater than Goku's even if you include ssj3... Makes no sense.

In the Tournament of Power he was more of a strategist and if you made everybody "powerful" it would diminish the power of the other characters and this isnt any different than in the Buu saga. In fact, he is portrayed as far less weak as in the Buu saga.

In the ToP he wasn't that bad, and I agree in the Buu saga he was treated pretty badly.

Gohan defeated the U6 Namekians that directly lead to the Universe's erasure. He also aided in the defeat of Dyspo who is one of the strongest in the tournament. Gohan was easily one of the top 10 strongest fighters in the tournament. If he would have been any more powerful it wouldn't have made any sense considering he only trained for like a day and is now relegated to a more academic/father role rather than a father. You can only have so many insane power-ups for Gohan in the series. This was arguably the biggest one

I agree. I don't think Gohan was weak in the ToP. He was only bad in RoF.

[Puaru]

You can only have so many insane power-ups for Gohan in the series. This was arguably the biggest one

Trunks got to acchieve god-level power just by getting pissed of. Gohan should be able to do the same. Otherwise all that talk throughout DBZ about Gohan's "potential" was just bullcrap, as it was in fact Trunks all along who had the most potential.

[PFM18]

You can only have so many insane power-ups for Gohan in the series. This was arguably the biggest one

Trunks got to acchieve god-level power just by getting pissed of. Gohan should be able to do the same. Otherwise all that talk throughout DBZ about Gohan's "potential" was just bullcrap, as it was in fact Trunks all along who had the most potential.

At the end of the day trunks dedicates his life to fighting and protecting the future. Gohan dedicates his life to going to academic conferences and being a domestic husband and being a good father. Gohan is lucky he got this asinine power-up before the ToP it is probanly the biggest he has ever gotten. After being a non-fighter and stop training in favor of having a career it would be comoletely asinine if he became SSB level in 2 days. He may have the most potential and that is why he literally got thousands upon thousands of times stronger by training with Piccolo in 2 days or so.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ya, but weren't 17 an 18 practically always together? Also if you go by the history of Trunks special Gohan reached the level of where he could actually push the androids before he died, so I assume Trunks reached about that level in the android arc.

It's not because they are together that they fight together. On the manga 17 killed Gohan alone, and 18 was about to one shot Trunks on her own as well. Not sure if it counts but the present twins only fight together if necessary too.

The special is anime only though. On the manga Gohan was just somewhat above <50% 17 and got horribly killed by him. Trunks 3 years later did no better and admited to Bulma that the androids were still stronger than him.

What makes you say he is leaps and bounds stronger? It was only like 8 months later for Trunks, and it's not like he did any special training in between. He probably got a bit stronger, but nothing noteworthy. All we really know about Trunks during that time is he is above Frieza and below 17/18. And if I remember correctly, android saga ssj Trunks was implied to be above Piccolo, who stomped post absorption 20, so even if initial introduction Trunks was weaker than Piccolo, I don't think it was by so much he couldn't beat 20 as long as he doesn't get his energy absorbed.

He went from dumbfounded by Yardrat Goku to not much different from Vegeta, that's a huge increase. Vegeta was ready to take on foes who scared the shit out of Trunks.

Piccolo is actually implied to be above Trunks from 3 years ago as indicated by him outright stating he's not lacking confidence on fighting, so if anything the gap is even wider than you would think.

[jeffbr92]

- Jiren vs. Beerus

[dragon boss z]

It's not because they are together that they fight together. On the manga 17 killed Gohan alone, and 18 was about to one shot Trunks on her own as well. Not sure if it counts but the present twins only fight together if necessary too.

The special is anime only though. On the manga Gohan was just somewhat above <50% 17 and got horribly killed by him. Trunks 3 years later did no better and admited to Bulma that the androids were still stronger than him.

Ya I don't think he is near even with them, probably more like 60% of them. Enough to where he could fight back a bit and survive, but not really stand a chance if they are serious.

He went from dumbfounded by Yardrat Goku to not much different from Vegeta, that's a huge increase.

Was he dumbfounded? I thought he was just impressed and said the rumors were true.

Vegeta was ready to take on foes who scared the shit out of Trunks.

That's just Vegeta's personality.

Piccolo is actually implied to be above Trunks from 3 years ago as indicated by him outright stating he's not lacking confidence on fighting, so if anything the gap is even wider than you would think.

Piccolo had Goku and the others as back up and Piccolo is pretty cocky himself. Him having confidence really isn't surprising.

[Berserker1921]

- Jiren vs. Beerus

Jiren has defeated a god of destruction and only lost to someone who gained a power that not even the gods can properly use. Beerus on the other hand, is hinted to be the strongest god of destruction. Also may know how to use UI. So until proven otherwise, Beerus wins with mid-high difficultly.

[PFM18]

- Jiren vs. Beerus

I was under the impression that it was made very clear that Jiren is stronger than Beerus. Whis said that "there lies a mortal where that universe's GoD cannot defeat them. and that GoD happens to be stronger than Beerus." He later revealed this mortal was Jiren and Belmod is stronger than Beerus. Belmod made it very clear that he was stronger than him and we have reason to believe Belmod is stronger than Beerus and absolutely no reason to think otherwise. The fact that Jiren competed and almost defeated Goku who was using Ultra instinct which none of the GoDs can use shows that he is beyond their level. He surpasses time itself they said. I believe even in the promotional material that they said Jiren is beyond the level of gods of destruction and I don't think that there is any reason to believe that there is a substantial gap between the GoDs. I think the best guess could say that Sidra is the weakest since Freeza escaped his destruction energy and he is the GoD for the weakest universe in existence. You could probably also say that the U12 GoD(forget his name) is the strongest because he was in one of the 4 exempt universes that are considered the strongest and he didnt compete in their exhibition saying something along the lines of "the result is obvious."

And narratively it makes sense that in the final arc they were trying to show that Goku got this ability that GoDs couldnt use and in this final fight he surpassed Beerus and defeated a foe that is stronger than Beerus.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Ya I don't think he is near even with them, probably more like 60% of them. Enough to where he could fight back a bit and survive, but not really stand a chance if they are serious.

That can fit, i think. Even toying he was still being totally demolished and would get beaten to the ground pretty quick by one serious android.

Was he dumbfounded? I thought he was just impressed and said the rumors were true.

Well, he was quite impressed by him and admited he was even better than the rumors, which already said he was the strongest.

That's just Vegeta's personality.

Like when he wanted no piece of Freeza unless he was imortal or a super saiyan? Not to mention he's stronger than Goku, who is also confident on winning alone.

Piccolo had Goku and the others as back up and Piccolo is pretty cocky himself. Him having confidence really isn't surprising.

Piccolo cocky? When? Piccolo is someone who never understimates his opponents. He even told the Z Fighters to not come if they don't think they're strong enough.

And Piccolo didn't want to retreat after Goku was down and even asked to take on #20 alone, showing he had confidence on his own power as well.

[AvatarReiko]

SSJ2 Kalfa vs Initial UIO Goku

[Sonofman]

Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken x20 vs Super Saiyan Blue Evolution

[dragon boss z]

SSJ2 Kalfa vs Initial UIO Goku

Goku

Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-Ken x20 vs Super Saiyan Blue Evolution

Evolution, based off how Vegeta did against Toppo and how he could get up against Jiren while Goku couldn't.

Well, he was quite impressed by him and admited he was even better than the rumors, which already said he was the strongest.

I mean it makes sense for him to be impressed by Goku.

Like when he wanted no piece of Freeza unless he was imortal or a super saiyan?

That's when he knew he was too weak. He was confident when he first started fighting first form Frieza, and he was confident when he got his final zenkai before fighting final form Frieza. Every time he gets a power up he gets cocky.

Not to mention he's stronger than Goku, who is also confident on winning alone.

If Goku was completely healthy I think they would of been about the same strength. Vegeta might of been slightly stronger, but not much to make a difference.

Piccolo cocky? When? Piccolo is someone who never understimates his opponents.

Don't forget how he used to be like in the 23rd tournament or beginning of the saiyan arc. Also he was cocky against Frieza after fusing with Nail as well.

He even told the Z Fighters to not come if they don't think they're strong enough.

That'e because the humans are extremely weak. All of them were still weaker than first form Frieza imo.

And Piccolo didn't want to retreat after Goku was down and even asked to take on #20 alone, showing he had confidence on his own power as well.

That was after he already saw what the androids were made of, and he could tell he could win.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That's when he knew he was too weak. He was confident when he first started fighting first form Frieza, and he was confident when he got his final zenkai before fighting final form Frieza. Every time he gets a power up he gets cocky.

The point of his power up was to get ready to fight the Androids though. Who to say he wasn't strong enough?

If Goku was completely healthy I think they would of been about the same strength. Vegeta might of been slightly stronger, but not much to make a difference.

And Goku thought he could take both the Androids alone... Anything Goku can do, Vegeta can as well.

Don't forget how he used to be like in the 23rd tournament or beginning of the saiyan arc. Also he was cocky against Frieza after fusing with Nail as well.

Yeah, but the 23rd Budokai was like 10 years before the Android Arc. Piccolo changed a lot since then and isn't the average arrogant villian anymore.

Piccolo wasn't exactly cocky against Freeza though. Cocky is like when you're confident on a condenscending way. Piccolo was confident, but he had a reason to be: He had power above Freeza's. And when he was outmatched by Freeza's 3rd form he even admited so and tried to run away. How's that for cocky?

That'e because the humans are extremely weak. All of them were still weaker than first form Frieza imo.

The statement goes for all of them. If you're not strong enough, don't come. And Piccolo came.

That was after he already saw what the androids were made of, and he could tell he could win.

He didn't note them as being weaker than expected though. He does show some doubt, but that's because they're not outrageously strong as Trunks said. Like, Trunks is a 5 and described the androids like they were a 10. If they are a 7 then something looks off, but not to a point they would be sure of Trunks's mistake.

[The Monkey King]

Saiyan Saga Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon vs Nappa

According to the Daizenshuu Piccolo has a PL of 3500 and Nappa had a PL of 4000.

And in the Raditz saga the SBC has a PL multiplier of roughly 3 times.

This should be enough to kill Nappa right?

[Helios518]

Saiyan Saga Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon vs Nappa

According to the Daizenshuu Piccolo has a PL of 3500 and Nappa had a PL of 4000.

And in the Raditz saga the SBC has a PL multiplier of roughly 3 times.

This should be enough to kill Nappa right?

If we're following that guidebook, then the Makankosappo will most definitely kill Nappa.

[Spider-Man]

SSJ Bardock vs SSJ Future Gohan

SSJ3 Gotenks vs SSJ2 Caulifla

[dragon boss z]

The point of his power up was to get ready to fight the Androids though. Who to say he wasn't strong enough?

The fact he got stomped by 18.

And Goku thought he could take both the Androids alone... Anything Goku can do, Vegeta can as well.

You talking about 19 and 20? Of course I think either could solo if they don't let their energy get absorbed.

Yeah, but the 23rd Budokai was like 10 years before the Android Arc. Piccolo changed a lot since then and isn't the average arrogant villian anymore.

I agree. It he still is the type to be confident.

Piccolo wasn't exactly cocky against Freeza though. Cocky is like when you're confident on a condenscending way. Piccolo was confident, but he had a reason to be: He had power above Freeza's. And when he was outmatched by Freeza's 3rd form he even admited so and tried to run away. How's that for cocky?

Piccolo wasn't stronger than second form Frieza. Frieza transformed because they were too close for comfort.

The statement goes for all of them. If you're not strong enough, don't come. And Piccolo came.

I mean it would be pretty pathetic if the humans showed up and he didn't. And techniques could be a big help. Krillin's kienzan, Tien's kikoho, Piccolo's special beam canon, are all things that could of been used to help. 17 even said 18 couldn't beat them all at once so they all had something to offer.

He didn't note them as being weaker than expected though. He does show some doubt, but that's because they're not outrageously strong as Trunks said. Like, Trunks is a 5 and described the androids like they were a 10. If they are a 7 then something looks off, but not to a point they would be sure of Trunks's mistake.

He did mention they may have been weaker than Trunks said which is enough. If he just said "we must have goten too strong" then I would agree, but Piccolo isn't the type to question his own power without good reason.

[PFM18]

SSJ Bardock vs SSJ Future Gohan

SSJ3 Gotenks vs SSJ2 Caulifla

1. I have no idea given that Bardock only appeared as a ssj in that one non canon movie so I dont know where he stands.

2. Caulifla base is roughly on par with base goku maybe slightly weaker but base goku is leaps and bounds above SSJ3 gotenks. So Caulifla as a SSJ2 could win comfortably with less than 1% of her power

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The fact he got stomped by 18.

But 18 was far stronger than anyone could expect. She's so ridiculously stronger than the expected that even when Trunks got strong enough to tango with his own androids, 18 still one shoted him. That's like saying Vegeta was weaker than 3rd form Freeza because he got stomped by 4th form Freeza.

You talking about 19 and 20? Of course I think either could solo if they don't let their energy get absorbed.

Yeah but that was before any action was done by them though, and Goku did not know they could absorb energy yet. For all he knew they were the fearsome androids that Trunks talked about.

Piccolo wasn't stronger than second form Frieza. Frieza transformed because they were too close for comfort.

He was still going to win either way. Stronger or not, he was still close enough to know he was gonna win.

I mean it would be pretty pathetic if the humans showed up and he didn't. And techniques could be a big help. Krillin's kienzan, Tien's kikoho, Piccolo's special beam canon, are all things that could of been used to help. 17 even said 18 couldn't beat them all at once so they all had something to offer.

Special Beam Cannon needs to be charged though. It wouldn't a factor unless the androids were close to his power.

He did mention they may have been weaker than Trunks said which is enough. If he just said "we must have goten too strong" then I would agree, but Piccolo isn't the type to question his own power without good reason.

Like i said before, it's because they expected someone on Goku's level. Trunks said Goku's power only gave him a little hope. If Trunks > 20 were even remotely true, Piccolo would instantly know something was wrong.