The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta may or may not of been stronger than 3rd form Frieza and we don't know how the future androids compare to the present ones, all we know is the present ones are stronger.

Trunks said they were outrageously strong compared to their future selves and that he could at least hold his own a bit against the future cyborgs, whereas he got KO'd in one hit by the present ones. I think they would be 33-50% stronger than their future selves or so.

Did Goku actually say he thought he could beat two androids stronger than Trunks alone?

He outright asked Tenshinhan and Piccolo to stay out of it, so it seems like so.

There was no proof he was going to win. He was more beat up than Frieza after their fight and who knows if taking off his weighted clothes would of been enough.

Piccolo is a considerably superior fighter than Freeza though. He's one of the smartest fighters of the series and is able to sense Ki, what gives a huge advantage over Freeza.

Didn't Cell use it without charging up? Also it's not like Piccolo was alone, he could of been banking on teamwork and strategy, which is backed up by how he let 20 inure him to try a sneak attack.

It was filler.

You're right though. If the androids were expected to be around Goku, then Piccolo can comfortably charge and fire a Special Beam Cannon. Though he does ask to fight #20 all on his own later, so...

The androids don't have energy to sense so how would Piccolo know for sure? And Vegeta flat out said based off what he saw they where nowhere near what they were made out to be.

Because he just fought him and gauged his movements. That's how people would gauge someone's power back on Part I.

I think Piccolo's statements differ from Vegeta's for another reason that's not power. I mean, Vegeta calls both weak:
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

But then Piccolo also uses plural on his statement, showing he refers to both androids on his statement:
Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

So the statements are contradicting each other. I think Piccolo is looking at it from a wider perspective, that they trained too much and are strong enough, but it was too easy. Vegeta is looking at it from a narrower perspective, he expected the androids to give him the fight of his life. It's all or nothing for Vegeta.

[blain218]

Super Buu (Black absorbed) vs Toppo
Super Perfect Cell vs Roshi (ToP)
Dyspo vs Copy-Vegeta
Base Kefla vs Future Zamasu

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan now should be at least above SSG Goku but below SSB Goku, based on his fight with Dyspo.

SSG Goku fought Dyspo with a large field of movement, Gohan didn’t. Gohan could only beat Dyspo in a straight brawl.

[blain218]

Gohan now should be at least above SSG Goku but below SSB Goku, based on his fight with Dyspo.

SSG Goku fought Dyspo with a large field of movement, Gohan didn’t. Gohan could only beat Dyspo in a straight brawl.

That still proves that in raw power Gohan > SSG Goku > Dyspo

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan now should be at least above SSG Goku but below SSB Goku, based on his fight with Dyspo.

SSG Goku fought Dyspo with a large field of movement, Gohan didn’t. Gohan could only beat Dyspo in a straight brawl.

That still proves that in raw power Gohan > SSG Goku > Dyspo

Not really. It just proves that Dyspo can’t beat more powerful fighters if he can’t move freely. For all we know, at full capacity Dyspo can beat even Golden Freeza and Gohan together. Beating SSG is not a surprise.

[blain218]

SSG Goku fought Dyspo with a large field of movement, Gohan didn’t. Gohan could only beat Dyspo in a straight brawl.

That still proves that in raw power Gohan > SSG Goku > Dyspo

Not really. It just proves that Dyspo can’t beat more powerful fighters if he can’t move freely. For all we know, at full capacity Dyspo can beat even Golden Freeza and Gohan together. Beating SSG is not a surprise.

Dyspo couldn't beat SSG Goku in open space. Golden Freeza is obviously stronger than SSG Goku and at least equal to SSB Goku. So that means Golden Freeza at full stamina would easily crush Dyspo under any context.

[Hugo Boss]

That still proves that in raw power Gohan > SSG Goku > Dyspo

Not really. It just proves that Dyspo can’t beat more powerful fighters if he can’t move freely. For all we know, at full capacity Dyspo can beat even Golden Freeza and Gohan together. Beating SSG is not a surprise.

Dyspo couldn't beat SSG Goku in open space. Golden Freeza is obviously stronger than SSG Goku and at least equal to SSB Goku. So that means Golden Freeza at full stamina would easily crush Dyspo under any context.

If Gohan didn’t interrupt the fight, Dyspo would knock out Freeza. And Gohan sacrificed himself because they wouldn’t be able to beat Dyspo at full capacity. That was what Piccolo told him when Gohan spawned in the bleachers. If even Golden Freeza could not do that, let alone SSG.

[jeffbr92]

- MUI Vegetto vs. Whis

[blain218]

- MUI Vegetto vs. Whis

SethTheProgrammer made a video about this. There is no objective way to measure the strength of the Angels. All we know so far is that Grand Priest >> Angels >> GoDs > SSB level characters based on statements.

[PFM18]

When Gohan turned Ultimate in DBS he was about equal to his DBZ self.
Piccolo said that he wants to see the power he used against Buu.
Narrator said that he regained his old power.

Then he trained for how long? 2 hours?

when Piccolo asked about "that power" he was referring to the ultimate form itself. The form that Gohan possess that is beyond his SSJ2 form. The narrator also refers to "that power" as in the form itself. Otherwise, he would be fodder in the tournament of power and wouldn't be able to do anything against anyone. instead, while not as strong as his father, he is remotely close, which automatically makes him atleast 10 thousand times stronger than he was during the buu saga.

Where are you getting 10,000 times stronger from? Imo SSB is only about 100x mystic Gohan from DBZ. And imo Gohan didn't even reach that level, more like SSG level which is like 10-20x DBZ mystic Gohan.

Yeah then that is where the disagreement stems from. I have SSB Goku being about 800,000x stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga. These characters left everything in Z behind a long time ago imo. Scaling off of the fact that I have SSJ2 Goku being about 35-50 thousand stronger than Ugohan from the buu saga and since Gohan smacked Goku in that state I put him around 50-80k times stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the buu saga. So I mean I think as far as where Gohan stands in terms of Goku we are kind of in the same spot but I don't think you give Super characters enough credit they are ridiculously outrageously more powerful than characterz in Z. I mean Base Goku/Vegeta can absolutely dominate SSJ3 Gotenks so that tells you how crazy the scale is. I believe that Blue is 2500x base so I mean that right there puts him over 2,000x stronger than Gohan in the buu saga.

[AvatarReiko]

SSJ Vegito(Buu Saga) vs Base U6 Saiyans(TOP)

[TheDipDap1234]

SSJ Vegito(Buu Saga) vs Base U6 Saiyans(TOP)

Base Cabba and base Caulifla stomp. Base Kale is questionable.

[PFM18]

SSJ Vegito(Buu Saga) vs Base U6 Saiyans(TOP)

This is a very interesting fight. I think Vegito may need SSJ2 or SSJ3 to win so i think SSJ probably wouldnt be enough. Actually, I think SSJ2 would be a very close fight and SSJ3 would make Vegetto massacre her in base.

[blain218]

SSJ Vegito(Buu Saga) vs Base U6 Saiyans(TOP)

Base Cabba and base Caulifla stomp. Base Kale is questionable.

I don't think base Kale is actually weak compared to base Caulifla and base Cabba. It seems like more of a personality thing, Kid Gohan use to have the same problem until he gets enraged.

[Hugo Boss]

SSJ Vegito(Buu Saga) vs Base U6 Saiyans(TOP)

I have Super Vegetto between Berserk Kale and SSG Goku, so I think he wins with no difficulty. I would let at least Kale and Caulifla fight in their strongest forms.

[blain218]

SSJ Vegito(Buu Saga) vs Base U6 Saiyans(TOP)

I have Super Vegetto between Berserk Kale and SSG Goku, so I think he wins with no difficulty. I would let at least Kale and Caulifla fight in their strongest forms.

Buu saga Vegito even in SSJ3 doesn't stand a chance. Base Goku himself is above all of the Buu saga, and both Caulifla and Kale in their strongest forms could at least match ToP SSJ2 Goku.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan fought on par with Goku in the same form during their fight on the farm and he was still stated to be weaker than his Boo arc strength. So Boo arc Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku whom Super Saiyan Gohan could fight on par with.

Boo arc top tiers like Bootenks, Boohan, Base Vegito & Super Saiyan Vegito are all superior to Ultimate Gohan. So the idea that Goku is stronger than the entire Boo arc in base doesn't hold water. He isn't even close to them as a Super Saiyan.

The highest Boo arc power that Goku eclipses in base is Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The rest out way out of his league.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah then that is where the disagreement stems from. I have SSB Goku being about 800,000x stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga. These characters left everything in Z behind a long time ago imo. Scaling off of the fact that I have SSJ2 Goku being about 35-50 thousand stronger than Ugohan from the buu saga and since Gohan smacked Goku in that state I put him around 50-80k times stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the buu saga. So I mean I think as far as where Gohan stands in terms of Goku we are kind of in the same spot but I don't think you give Super characters enough credit they are ridiculously outrageously more powerful than characterz in Z. I mean Base Goku/Vegeta can absolutely dominate SSJ3 Gotenks so that tells you how crazy the scale is. I believe that Blue is 2500x base so I mean that right there puts him over 2,000x stronger than Gohan in the buu saga.

It doesn't really make sense for them to be that strong though. Almost everything points to god tiers not being that far above everyone else. Frieza easily caught up, Gohan easily caught up, 17 easily caught up, ect.
Also it is implied fusion multiplier is actually above the SSG multiplier since base Goku>base Caulifa and Kale but base Kefla>SSG Goku. So I don't think SSG Goku from the BoG arc was that much above ssj Vegito, but I do think he is stronger.

[PFM18]

Yeah then that is where the disagreement stems from. I have SSB Goku being about 800,000x stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga. These characters left everything in Z behind a long time ago imo. Scaling off of the fact that I have SSJ2 Goku being about 35-50 thousand stronger than Ugohan from the buu saga and since Gohan smacked Goku in that state I put him around 50-80k times stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the buu saga. So I mean I think as far as where Gohan stands in terms of Goku we are kind of in the same spot but I don't think you give Super characters enough credit they are ridiculously outrageously more powerful than characterz in Z. I mean Base Goku/Vegeta can absolutely dominate SSJ3 Gotenks so that tells you how crazy the scale is. I believe that Blue is 2500x base so I mean that right there puts him over 2,000x stronger than Gohan in the buu saga.

It doesn't really make sense for them to be that strong though. Almost everything points to god tiers not being that far above everyone else. Frieza easily caught up, Gohan easily caught up, 17 easily caught up, ect.
Also it is implied fusion multiplier is actually above the SSG multiplier since base Goku>base Caulifa and Kale but base Kefla>SSG Goku. So I don't think SSG Goku from the BoG arc was that much above ssj Vegito, but I do think he is stronger.

Actually, I believe the entire series points to god tiers being massively stronger than earlier characters in the series. I mean Goku absorbed the strength that he had in SSG to the point where his SSJ form became stronger than the SSG by a fairly significant amount. ( I personally don't believe that he "absorbed it into base" that would make his base much stronger than it actually is.) This is the SSG who was creating ripples in the entire universe with Beerus. Then, Freeza shows up in his first form and dominates everybody who has to be atleast around their buu saga levels. Then, if the difference between his 1st to final form is the same, then he would be 113x stronger than his first form. Then, Goku comes along in his base and easily defeats this Freeza in his base form. Then he goes SSB on top of that which at bare minimum has to be a bigger multiplier than ssj3 which would have to be around 500x(me personally I believe it to be 2500x base). The training the two saiyans received from Whis was implied to be a very large boost because they gained the ability to control their ki properly and sense the ki of the gods along with moving weights that were implied to be so much more than anything they had lifted prior and they did that frequently. In the Copy Vegeta arc the Saiyans' base form is shown to be strong enough to absolutely demolish SSJ3 Gotenks without even flinching. The gap is massive. At the absolute minimum Base Vegeta and Goku are Buuhan level in base and Blue has to be thousands of times stronger than that.

The fact that 17,Freeza, and Gohan caught up doesn't actually serve to contradict a massive boost in power by the characters in the series. These are characters with insane potential and they just yielded very large gains that almost put them in line with Goku and Vegeta's power. I think the huge misconception is that people see fusion competing with SSG and think "oh SSG must not be that big of a boost!" even though it gave Goku the strength to basically destroy the universe. The power Goku gained is not seen now in the SSG transformation itself, but instead the fact that the God power he attained was absorbed into normal ki in his base form. So really the fact that Kefla>SSG goku doesn't actually disprove the idea that SSG was such a huge boost in the slightest. It actually has nothing to do with the boost that Goku received in BoG. Which is exactly why the question of the base Saiyans in U6 vs SSJ Vegetto is actually a question. Because the power boosts are astronomically large. Me personally, I think Base Caulifla would win easily, Base Cabba would win with moderate difficulty and Base Kale would lose.

quote="blain218"]

SSJ Vegito(Buu Saga) vs Base U6 Saiyans(TOP)

I have Super Vegetto between Berserk Kale and SSG Goku, so I think he wins with no difficulty. I would let at least Kale and Caulifla fight in their strongest forms.

Buu saga Vegito even in SSJ3 doesn't stand a chance. Base Goku himself is above all of the Buu saga, and both Caulifla and Kale in their strongest forms could at least match ToP SSJ2 Goku.[/quote]

I think this is a little much. To say SSJ3 Vegetto would stand no chance against base Goku may be a bit of an exaggeration. Personally, I believe Goku would fairly easily beat SSJ2 Vegetto and he would get smacked by SSJ3 Vegetto. At the very least Vegetto would stand a chance as a SSJ3 to say he stands no chance is a little strange to me

[blain218]

Gohan fought on par with Goku in the same form during their fight on the farm and he was still stated to be weaker than his Boo arc strength. So Boo arc Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku whom Super Saiyan Gohan could fight on par with.

Boo arc top tiers like Bootenks, Boohan, Base Vegito & Super Saiyan Vegito are all superior to Ultimate Gohan. So the idea that Goku is stronger than the entire Boo arc in base doesn't hold water. He isn't even close to them as a Super Saiyan.

The highest Boo arc power that Goku eclipses in base is Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The rest out way out of his league.

SSJ Goku was holding back against SSJ Gohan in the farm battle. Characters can suppress themselves in any form. Do you wanna argue that Krillin is SSB level just because Goku used SSB on him?

Back in the BoG arc, Goku said that not even Vegito would stand a chance against suppressed Beerus, yet SSG Goku was able to match that version of Beerus. Goku would then absorb SSG into his base then surpass that level of power while fighting Beerus in base and SSJ. This shows that base Goku and base Vegeta >>>>>>> All of Z and GT easily.