PFM18 wrote:
Actually, I believe the entire series points to god tiers being massively stronger than earlier characters in the series. I mean Goku absorbed the strength that he had in SSG to the point where his SSJ form became stronger than the SSG by a fairly significant amount. ( I personally don't believe that he "absorbed it into base" that would make his base much stronger than it actually is.)
I feel Goku's ssj form being that strong may of been temporary, as if it wasn't he should of logically been able to go ssj3 and get 8x stronger. And this goes double for in the movie since it was confirmed SSG Goku was 60% Beerus, so if ssj Goku was anywhere close to that ssj3 would of let him stomp Beerus. Also Toriyama said he wouldn't use ssj2 or 3 again, but he changed his mind. He also said Goku would never use SSG again, but he changed his mind. At his point I would just say after Goku lost SSG, that became his new MAX power. It just would seem weird that losing SSG would make him 8x stronger. I think it makes more sense to just say he kept the power.
This is the SSG who was creating ripples in the entire universe with Beerus.
Ya but that kind of thing never happened again, plus Buuhan was destroying the universe by screaming. I wouldn't really try to use either to judge anything.
Then, Freeza shows up in his first form and dominates everybody who has to be atleast around their buu saga levels.
Actually they were all weaker than their Buu saga selves, besides maybe Piccolo and Tien, but Piccolo was nerfed anyways since he was having trouble with Frieza soldiers. Gohan could barely go ssj and couldn't even go ssj2, so he should be below Cell, and Piccolo never proved himself to be above Cell either. Tien and Krillin still haven't proved to be above first form Frieza from the Namek saga so they are fodder. First form Frieza was probably somewhere from perfect Cell to Buu level.
Then, if the difference between his 1st to final form is the same, then he would be 113x stronger than his first form.
We don't know if the multiplier stayed the same.
Then, Goku comes along in his base and easily defeats this Freeza in his base form.
That was in the movie version, but in the Super version they were equal and we don't even know how much power Frieza was using.
Then he goes SSB on top of that which at bare minimum has to be a bigger multiplier than ssj3 which would have to be around 500x(me personally I believe it to be 2500x base). The training the two saiyans received from Whis was implied to be a very large boost because they gained the ability to control their ki properly and sense the ki of the gods along with moving weights that were implied to be so much more than anything they had lifted prior and they did that frequently. In the Copy Vegeta arc the Saiyans' base form is shown to be strong enough to absolutely demolish SSJ3 Gotenks without even flinching. The gap is massive. At the absolute minimum Base Vegeta and Goku are Buuhan level in base and Blue has to be thousands of times stronger than that.
We don't know exactly how the current multipliers work though. Goku and Vegeta's new mastered base is also what led them to SSB, so it's possible their regular base<<<<<mastered base<ssj(50x regular base)<<<<SSB (50x mastered base)
I mean it's pretty clear the writers don't really care about multipliers when writing. I mean base Goku was on par with ssj2 Caulifla, and then went ssj2 (should be a 100x multiplier), but was still on par with her...
The fact that 17,Freeza, and Gohan caught up doesn't actually serve to contradict a massive boost in power by the characters in the series.
It kind of does, esince by Super logic he could of solod Z by training for a few hours, and it also means 17 should of solod the Buu saga.
These are characters with insane potential and they just yielded very large gains that almost put them in line with Goku and Vegeta's power. I think the huge misconception is that people see fusion competing with SSG and think "oh SSG must not be that big of a boost!" even though it gave Goku the strength to basically destroy the universe.
Again, using the power to destroy a universe thing isn't really a good argument as we don't even know the power of Buu saga top tiers. Also Goku being a universe buster as an SSG seems to have been reconnected. Even one of the writers said he thinks Goku isn't a universe buster as SSB. I feel it's because GoD level characters were supposed to be universe level, and SSG Goku was supposed to be though of GoD tier at the time, but now we know he is nothing to GoD level characters, even as a SSB.
The power Goku gained is not seen now in the SSG transformation itself, but instead the fact that the God power he attained was absorbed into normal ki in his base form. So really the fact that Kefla>SSG goku doesn't actually disprove the idea that SSG was such a huge boost in the slightest. It actually has nothing to do with the boost that Goku received in BoG. Which is exactly why the question of the base Saiyans in U6 vs SSJ Vegetto is actually a question. Because the power boosts are astronomically large. Me personally, I think Base Caulifla would win easily, Base Cabba would win with moderate difficulty and Base Kale would lose.
I can see why you thin this, but imo this is a result of Toei and Toriyama messing up the powerscalling. I really don't think any of the writers consider the U6 saiyans to be even close to that strong except for Kale. In the manga version Toyotaro even made it so that Goku never absorbed SSG to fix this problem.
I would say my tier system would go like this
(current unless specified otherwise)
[spoiler]Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
UI Goku/Jiren
GoD/SSB Vegito
SSBE Vegeta/GoD Toppo/ssj2 Kefla/kkx20 SSB Goku/Anilaza
Golden Frieza/Hit/17/SSB Goku/SSB Vegeta/Toppo/SSR Black/SSR Trunks
mystic Gohan/Dyspo/SSG Goku/base Black
ssj3 Goku/berserk Kale/U6 namekians
ssj2 Goku/Zamasu
ssj Goku/full power Frieza/ssj Vegito Z
base Goku (whis training)/ssj2 Caulifla/Buuhan/base Vegito Z
ssj Caulifla/fat Buu/Magetta
base Caulifla/Piccolo/super perfect Cell/base Goku (when he isn't serious)/Frost
first form Frieza/perfect cell/18? (she is hard to place)/Bergamo
Basil/Lavender/most of the pride troopers/other ToP mid tiers/namek Frieza-semi perfect Cell range
Krillin/Tien/Roshi/ToP lower tiers/Zarbon-namek Frieza tier
Top fooder/Raditz-Zarbon tier[/spoiler]
The show makes it clear how strong x character is through feats, all-out fights and statements, just like in Z and Early DB. Its not rocket science lol.
