Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Dragon Wukong]

Yes, he says that because Jaco literally translates Goku's speech that way. I don't understand the amount of mental gymnastics to try to deny something like that. We are talking about DB, there are not tons of meanings when it comes to overcoming another character.

Vegeta learning something that Goku didn't get does not make Goku say that he wants to overcome Vegeta because there is nothing to overcome if that was the meaning of that speech. The same goes for the fact that Vegeta performs better than his rival, this does not require Goku to train to overcome Vegeta if he was already stronger. Goku literally says that he didn't expect Vegeta to learn this technique and get so strong

Vegeta surpassed Goku by having a technique to defeat Moro where Goku himself failed. But Moro still initially had no issue taking Vegeta's hits. To say Vegeta is stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen now would mean Vegeta didn't even need the technique to fight Moro, (who fought about dead even with Ultra Instinct Omen,) but he did.

[FiReFTW]

Yes, he says that because Jaco literally translates Goku's speech that way. I don't understand the amount of mental gymnastics to try to deny something like that. We are talking about DB, there are not tons of meanings when it comes to overcoming another character.

Vegeta learning something that Goku didn't get does not make Goku say that he wants to overcome Vegeta because there is nothing to overcome if that was the meaning of that speech. The same goes for the fact that Vegeta performs better than his rival, this does not require Goku to train to overcome Vegeta if he was already stronger. Goku literally says that he didn't expect Vegeta to learn this technique and get so strong

Vegeta surpassed Goku by having a technique to defeat Moro where Goku himself failed. But Moro still initially had no issue taking Vegeta's hits. To say Vegeta is stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen now would mean Vegeta didn't even need the technique to fight Moro, (who fought about dead even with Ultra Instinct Omen,) but he did.

Dead even? lol Moro was not even fighting seriously and said Goku has no chance to defeat him with this level of power, and once he attacked with full power he pretty much beat Omen Goku down in 3 hits.

[Dragon Wukong]

Yes, he says that because Jaco literally translates Goku's speech that way. I don't understand the amount of mental gymnastics to try to deny something like that. We are talking about DB, there are not tons of meanings when it comes to overcoming another character.

Vegeta learning something that Goku didn't get does not make Goku say that he wants to overcome Vegeta because there is nothing to overcome if that was the meaning of that speech. The same goes for the fact that Vegeta performs better than his rival, this does not require Goku to train to overcome Vegeta if he was already stronger. Goku literally says that he didn't expect Vegeta to learn this technique and get so strong

Vegeta surpassed Goku by having a technique to defeat Moro where Goku himself failed. But Moro still initially had no issue taking Vegeta's hits. To say Vegeta is stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen now would mean Vegeta didn't even need the technique to fight Moro, (who fought about dead even with Ultra Instinct Omen,) but he did.

Dead even? lol Moro was not even fighting seriously and said Goku has no chance to defeat him with this level of power, and once he attacked with full power he pretty much beat Omen Goku down in 3 hits.

That was after Goku's stamina had effectively run out and he was unable to properly use Ultra Instinct Omen. Pay close attention to the fight, Moro struggles against Goku until he can't use the form anymore. It's heavily implied if stamina weren't an issue, Goku could have won.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Vegeta surpassed Goku by having a technique to defeat Moro where Goku himself failed. But Moro still initially had no issue taking Vegeta's hits. To say Vegeta is stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen now would mean Vegeta didn't even need the technique to fight Moro, (who fought about dead even with Ultra Instinct Omen,) but he did.

Yeah I'm not sure why there's the confusion.

Vegeta surpassed Goku but just isn't as physically powerful as him. We already saw that he was weaker than Goku when he fought Moro initially.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Vegeta surpassed Goku by having a technique to defeat Moro where Goku himself failed. But Moro still initially had no issue taking Vegeta's hits. To say Vegeta is stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen now would mean Vegeta didn't even need the technique to fight Moro, (who fought about dead even with Ultra Instinct Omen,) but he did.

Vegeta needed the technique because he was weaker than Moro in terms of raw power, as well as UI Omen Goku. And why would the fact that Vegeta perform better against Moro make Goku say that he needed to overcome Vegeta, with Jaco implying that he would do this through training?

[Miracles]

It seems many are using what they consider "visual feats" over story. Or unnecessarily trying to "interpret" what certain dialogue means.

When Goku and Vegeta talk about surpassing each other, it's always in the context of overall power. Why would Goku say he needs to overcome Vegeta because of a technique that was defined to work on those who fuse or absorb? Goku doesn't do either. Outside of fusing with Vegeta and using the Genki Dama to merge ki. The purpose of Yardrat was for Vegeta to specifically train for a technique to use against one who soaks up ki, Moro. This technique, narration wise, wouldn't work on Goku alone. There's no reason for Goku to train to defeat it.

To also claim that Vegeta surpassed Goku, in the poetic sense that he took out the big bad guy, also holds no merit. Goku didn't just praise Vegeta's technique but his power as well. No distinction was made as to what Goku has to surpass. Since this is Dragonball, it always talks about surpassing overall power. If Vegeta was greater because he could defeat Moro with a tech it would have been mentioned. Just like how it was stated earlier in the arc about Moro being weaker than SSJ Blue outside of his magic. No specification like that was made between Goku and Vegeta. Therefore the narrative is talking about overall power.

Finally, UI omen was stated to be unable to "match" Moro. It was labeled as "weak"compared to him too. Rightfully so, since Goku's multiple attacks made no difference. Goku even questioned "what is Moro's body made of." Moro was clean and good to go afterwards, as if he hadn't been in a battle. Able to Hulk 17 and 18's combined attacks like nothing [Remember 17 was Blue level in TOP]. Then he Juggernaut's Vegeta's attack later. UI omen Goku didn't bust a grape against Moro. He couldn't either, since the story stated Moro's power levels was so extensive that "training alone couldn't overcome it". Meaning it's going to take something special to beat him.

People are too busy caught up in Goku pushing Moro into the ground and moving him more than Vegeta did. Even with that, the story clearly stated Goku's attacks, just like Vegeta's were nothing to Moro. Until further clarification, Vegeta is the man so far.

[Dragon Wukong]

When Goku and Vegeta talk about surpassing each other, it's always in the context of overall power. Why would Goku say he needs to overcome Vegeta because of a technique that was defined to work on those who fuse or absorb? Goku doesn't do either. Outside of fusing with Vegeta and using the Genki Dama to merge ki. The purpose of Yardrat was for Vegeta to specifically train for a technique to use against one who soaks up ki, Moro. This technique, narration wise, wouldn't work on Goku alone. There's no reason for Goku to train to defeat it.

The issue is if you take earlier chapters while Vegeta was training into consideration, the technique is actually heavily suggested to work on anybody and drain anyone's ki if need be. It just happens to be especially effective when dealing with fusion or absorption.

[Hugo Boss]

The issue is if you take earlier chapters while Vegeta was training into consideration, the technique is actually heavily suggested to work on anybody and drain anyone's ki if need be. It just happens to be especially effective when dealing with fusion or absorption.

Vegeta made a complete explanation of his new ability. It doesn’t come that far. It just works on those who use energy that is not originally theirs. More than that, Vegeta wouldn’t consider it fair.

Also, Miracles is on point here. The anime has a little more inconsistent way to gauge each character strength, but this chapter clearly indicates that Vegeta’s battle power surpassed Goku’s (by Moro himself). He doesn’t judge his meal by the type of energy he is eating, but rather the quantity, which is what matters when he ate 73.

[DestructoDisc]

Nobody really talks about this so I will probably be the first one to mention this but did anyone else notice how much stronger Piccolo and 18 became in the Moro arc? Piccolo was doing better against Saganbo than 17 did, which is just insane. 17 is around SSJ3 tier, so this is a pretty big jump for Piccolo. 18 was doing just as good against Moro as 17 did. They were both able to land a scratch on him and impress him somewhat, suggesting that 18 isn't that far off in terms of power from 17.

[Koitsukai]

Could this new Vegeta technique work against a genki dama?

[Hugo Boss]

Could this new Vegeta technique work against a genki dama?

He dispersed that giant ball of collected energy. Probably yes.

[Dragon Wukong]

Could this new Vegeta technique work against a genki dama?

Most likely. He might even be able to send the energy from the spirit bomb back to wherever it came from as well.

[ssj3kakarot]

Could this new Vegeta technique work against a genki dama?

I'll just say I think not, solely bc no one else has said it.

Vegeta says that it is something that " tears things apart that were combined through fusion or absorption."

Vegeta's spirit fizzie-pop works on Moro for energy that is sucked out from the user.Since it's energy that isn't taken by force the spirit bomb would stay intact.

As long as Goku doesn't consume the genki dama, then Vegeta shouldn't be able to touch it.

[Dragon Wukong]

I'll just say I think not, solely bc no one else has said it.

Vegeta says that it is something that " tears things apart that were combined through fusion or absorption."

Vegeta's spirit fizzie-pop works on Moro for energy that is sucked out from the user.Since it's energy that isn't taken by force the spirit bomb would stay intact.

As long as Goku doesn't consume the genki dama, then Vegeta shouldn't be able to touch it.

I don't think it matters if the energy is taken by force or not. Piccolo's fusion, for instance, is a mutual joining of forces, but Vegeta could still separate them if need be.

[ssj3kakarot]

I'll just say I think not, solely bc no one else has said it.

Vegeta says that it is something that " tears things apart that were combined through fusion or absorption."

Vegeta's spirit fizzie-pop works on Moro for energy that is sucked out from the user.Since it's energy that isn't taken by force the spirit bomb would stay intact.

As long as Goku doesn't consume the genki dama, then Vegeta shouldn't be able to touch it.

I don't think it matters if the energy is taken by force or not. Piccolo's fusion, for instance, is a mutual joining of forces, but Vegeta could still separate them if need be.

True, force doesnt seem to be an underlying requirement. However, Goku doesn't combine or absorb the spirit bomb into anything, so I dont think it would work. It's just the raw energy, no one is a vessel for it, whereas Moro is the vessel for this "absorbed" energy, and Piccolo is the vessel for the "fusion" energy. The spirit bomb doesn't satisfy either of the two categories stated for the spirit fission to work.

[miguelnuva1]

Omen is not viable to Goku at this point so Goku is capped at completed Blue. Vegeta has evolved Blue as his cap.

This Vegeta has surpassed Goku.

Vegeta has an attack that is better suited for dealing with Moro. Vegeta is more effective than Goku.

Omen can trade blows with Moro and is stronger than evolved Blue but you can fall out of it and it is the opposite of how Goku has been taught to fight.

Omen has more Raw power but it is hard to use.

Goku and Vegeta right now are like Grade 3 Trunks and Cell. Goku needs to train Omen more to get back ahead of Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

Omen has more Raw power but it is hard to use.

Moro implies Vegeta’s power is greater.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Omen is not viable to Goku at this point so Goku is capped at completed Blue. Vegeta has evolved Blue as his cap.

This Vegeta has surpassed Goku.

Goku has already learned how to use UI Omen at will. If there are comparisons between Goku and Vegeta (as happened in this chapter), then Vegeta's SSBE will automatically be compared to the strongest form Goku is able to use, which is the UIO

[miguelnuva1]

Omen is not viable to Goku at this point so Goku is capped at completed Blue. Vegeta has evolved Blue as his cap.

This Vegeta has surpassed Goku.

Goku has already learned how to use UI Omen at will. If there are comparisons between Goku and Vegeta (as happened in this chapter), then Vegeta's SSBE will automatically be compared to the strongest form Goku is able to use, which is the UIO

Goku can not use it at will. The second he gets Uncomfortable against an opponent he reverted back to fighting like a super saiyan and lost the form, or atleast that is how I saw it.

Goku can get into Omen when he wants but he can't stay their comfortably. Omen right now is almost like Ssj on namek.

Omen has more Raw power but it is hard to use.

Moro implies Vegeta’s power is greater.

I'll admit I haven't read the chapter but from seeing Geekdom's review it looks like Vegeta needed to weakened Moro and just trading blows wouldn't have worked.

Even so could Moro eat Omen? If Moro can eat evolution and cant eat Omen then Vegeta would be a better meal than Goku.

[DBZ Macky]

The bulk of Vegeta's gains other than the spirit fission technique was his improved Spirit/Ki control.
He shouldn't be massively stronger than Goku in equal forms, just that he has better Ki Control now which gives a big enough edge, so much so that even Vegeta was surprised how much he improved when he easily took out Yuzun (that guy who's the same race as Zarbon)

On the other hand, Goku was able to use glimpses of Ultra Instinct without actually using the form, and is now able to use the incomplete form at will. If Vegeta made any additional gains in terms of battle power, Goku probably would've made the same by training with Merus.

They seem to still be about equal taking that into account:

SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta
Goku (using Ultra Instinct-esque movements) = Vegeta (using improved spirit control)
SSB Goku (with Kaio-Ken/Power Stressed in the Manga) = SSB Evolution Vegeta
Ultra Instinct Goku = Vegeta (Effectively, with the Spirit Fission stuff) = Moro

Vegeta could be slightly stronger than Goku in equivalent forms, but I think there's no way Vegeta's actual battle power should be greater than UI Goku's, since that would basically mean Vegeta could've just overpowered Moro by doing a few push ups instead of spending time on Yardrat.

Also, Moro was just a good match up against Vegeta's technique. I don't even think 73-absorbed Moro should reasonably stand a chance against Vegeta if the Saiyans stay on their guard, even if Moro has a higher battle power. You're telling me Vegeta straight up tells Moro that relying on absorbing someone else's strength is useless... and Moro literally does that again?