The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[shadowfox87]

Well, the context and language used in that scene certainly suggests his not referring to anyone but himself. His not talking to Cabba, otherwise he wouldn't be use say "his", its never signalled that his drawing his comment towards the bystanders, because the anime goes out of its way to present that by having Vegeta usually turn and speak the bystanders, directly referencing them, so considering conventions that are common in DB and anime in general, the only logical person he is referring to in the anime at least, when he is diagnosing Cabba's strength, is himself.
Also, the only saying stuff that contradicts what happens in the story, is yourself at this point, by looking far too deep into scenes, and blatantly disregarding clarifying information, that the story presents us with.

We know, how these characters compare to each at that state at that time, because we given that information from Vegeta, who is at that time, a reliable narrator for that information.

What actually happens in a fight by feats alone should trump what a character says. Burter said that he's the fastest person in the universe. Are we supposed to take that as fact or use logic and information given in the show that contradict it?

Fact 1 - Both in the anime (8:40) and manga (Ch. 12, page 7), Vegeta kicks Cabba once and that's enough for Cabba to run out of breath and hold his arm. Vegeta says, "What's wrong? Are you tired already?". If there bases are equal why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Fact 2 - 9:17 of the anime, Vegeta says, "He's good! Looks like we're evenly matched in normal form", talking about the beam struggle of their Galick Guns. Since he's using "he's good" and not "you're good", I will give you that he's thinking to himself and not talking to Cabba. However, this is only being said during the beam struggle. In the manga, Vegeta says, that Cabba is accustomed to combat and tactics, and can hold his own against him in his normal state.

Fact 3 - SSJ Vegeta defeated SSJ Cabba. Cabba hit Vegeta several times only for Vegeta to smile and then get serious. SSJ is a multiplier of base. If their bases are equal, why is Vegeta smiling and acting like nothing even happened? If Base Vegeta = Base Cabba, why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Goku himself stated that Vegeta could have won easily without turning SSB. Vegeta turned SSB in order to show Cabba what's the next level. From the very start, Vegeta saw his own stance being copied by Cabba and then his own Galick Gun. Cabba begged during the middle of the battle to ask Vegeta to show him how to turn SSJ. Vegeta was training him during this entire fight. Can you really tell me that Base Vegeta = Base Cabba given all this information?

Just to be clear, I'm stating:

Base Vegeta > Base Cabba
SSJ Cabba > Base Vegeta
SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba

[JazzMazz]

Well, the context and language used in that scene certainly suggests his not referring to anyone but himself. His not talking to Cabba, otherwise he wouldn't be use say "his", its never signalled that his drawing his comment towards the bystanders, because the anime goes out of its way to present that by having Vegeta usually turn and speak the bystanders, directly referencing them, so considering conventions that are common in DB and anime in general, the only logical person he is referring to in the anime at least, when he is diagnosing Cabba's strength, is himself.
Also, the only saying stuff that contradicts what happens in the story, is yourself at this point, by looking far too deep into scenes, and blatantly disregarding clarifying information, that the story presents us with.

We know, how these characters compare to each at that state at that time, because we given that information from Vegeta, who is at that time, a reliable narrator for that information.

What actually happens in a fight by feats alone should trump what a character says. Burter said that he's the fastest person in the universe. Are we supposed to take that as fact or use logic and information given in the show that contradict it?

Fact 1 - Both in the anime (8:40) and manga (Ch. 12, page 7), Vegeta kicks Cabba once and that's enough for Cabba to run out of breath and hold his arm. Vegeta says, "What's wrong? Are you tired already?". If there bases are equal why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Fact 2 - 9:17 of the anime, Vegeta says, "He's good! Looks like we're evenly matched in normal form", talking about the beam struggle of their Galick Guns. Since he's using "he's good" and not "you're good", I will give you that he's thinking to himself and not talking to Cabba. However, this is only being said during the beam struggle. In the manga, Vegeta says, that Cabba is accustomed to combat and tactics, and can hold his own against him in his normal state.

Fact 3 - SSJ Vegeta defeated SSJ Cabba. Cabba hit Vegeta several times only for Vegeta to smile and then get serious. SSJ is a multiplier of base. If their bases are equal, why is Vegeta smiling and acting like nothing even happened? If Base Vegeta = Base Cabba, why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Goku himself stated that Vegeta could have won easily without turning SSB. Vegeta turned SSB in order to show Cabba what's the next level. From the very start, Vegeta saw his own stance being copied by Cabba and then his own Galick Gun. Cabba begged during the middle of the battle to ask Vegeta to show him how to turn SSJ. Vegeta was training him during this entire fight. Can you really tell me that Base Vegeta = Base Cabba given all this information?

Just to be clear, I'm stating:

Base Vegeta > Base Cabba
SSJ Cabba > Base Vegeta
SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba

I wouldn't really say so, because what the characters say regarding each characters strength is the best indicator of genuine authorial intent, in contrast to people looking too deeply into fairly nothing scenes like your doing currently.

Your Burter example is disingenous, because its clearly not relevant to the conversation. Yes, Burter isn't the fastest person in the universe, but then again, the only person that said he was, was Burter himself, and that got immediately disproven. Burter thinking his the fastest in the universe, indeed reflects on how cocky and arrogant he is as a character, but his also an unreliable source of information due to it.

While its true that Cabba does lose his composure after getting kicked, and while it certainly seems to smarts, its not a genuine problem, and Vegeta is still prompted into thinking that Cabba is equal to him in normal form. There is no area of dispute about this, at least in the anime. In the manga, he uses slightly more vague terminology and says "in your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself". While its a little more vague in the manga, the general point of Vegeta and Cabba being basically even is still there, albeit, with only slight room for deviation.

The anime makes it extremely clear that Vegeta base=Cabba Base, however, in the manga I think you could definitely say Vegeta base=>Cabba base, though the difference between them is still established to be negligible in the manga.

As for the fights between them in Super Saiyan form, they're still perfectly evenly matched(although in the anime, Cabba clearly has an edge at the beginning of the fight). There is still nothing to suggest there is a discrepancy between them in terms of power. Vegeta is smiling, because his enjoying himself, his happy that he was able to make Cabba grow stronger. There is no implication about strength there.

As for your out of breath thing, he is in no worse condition than Cabba in both the anime and manga.

As for your final actual paragrah, yes I can. Just because Vegeta is training Cabba by showing him the Super Saiyan levels of power he should strive to achieve, doesn't mean that Vegeta is inherently stronger than Cabba in his base form. Vegeta still has like 3 transformation levels above Cabba at that point, so even if he didn't go Blue, he could still have won using SS(as Cabba wasn't really used to the form at the time), and SS2.

[PFM18]

Well, the context and language used in that scene certainly suggests his not referring to anyone but himself. His not talking to Cabba, otherwise he wouldn't be use say "his", its never signalled that his drawing his comment towards the bystanders, because the anime goes out of its way to present that by having Vegeta usually turn and speak the bystanders, directly referencing them, so considering conventions that are common in DB and anime in general, the only logical person he is referring to in the anime at least, when he is diagnosing Cabba's strength, is himself.
Also, the only saying stuff that contradicts what happens in the story, is yourself at this point, by looking far too deep into scenes, and blatantly disregarding clarifying information, that the story presents us with.

We know, how these characters compare to each at that state at that time, because we given that information from Vegeta, who is at that time, a reliable narrator for that information.

What actually happens in a fight by feats alone should trump what a character says. Burter said that he's the fastest person in the universe. Are we supposed to take that as fact or use logic and information given in the show that contradict it?

Fact 1 - Both in the anime (8:40) and manga (Ch. 12, page 7), Vegeta kicks Cabba once and that's enough for Cabba to run out of breath and hold his arm. Vegeta says, "What's wrong? Are you tired already?". If there bases are equal why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Fact 2 - 9:17 of the anime, Vegeta says, "He's good! Looks like we're evenly matched in normal form", talking about the beam struggle of their Galick Guns. Since he's using "he's good" and not "you're good", I will give you that he's thinking to himself and not talking to Cabba. However, this is only being said during the beam struggle. In the manga, Vegeta says, that Cabba is accustomed to combat and tactics, and can hold his own against him in his normal state.

Fact 3 - SSJ Vegeta defeated SSJ Cabba. Cabba hit Vegeta several times only for Vegeta to smile and then get serious. SSJ is a multiplier of base. If their bases are equal, why is Vegeta smiling and acting like nothing even happened? If Base Vegeta = Base Cabba, why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Goku himself stated that Vegeta could have won easily without turning SSB. Vegeta turned SSB in order to show Cabba what's the next level. From the very start, Vegeta saw his own stance being copied by Cabba and then his own Galick Gun. Cabba begged during the middle of the battle to ask Vegeta to show him how to turn SSJ. Vegeta was training him during this entire fight. Can you really tell me that Base Vegeta = Base Cabba given all this information?

Just to be clear, I'm stating:

Base Vegeta > Base Cabba
SSJ Cabba > Base Vegeta
SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba

I wouldn't really say so, because what the characters say regarding each characters strength is the best indicator of genuine authorial intent, in contrast to people looking too deeply into fairly nothing scenes like your doing currently.

Your Burter example is disingenous, because its clearly not relevant to the conversation. Yes, Burter isn't the fastest person in the universe, but then again, the only person that said he was, was Burter himself, and that got immediately disproven. Burter thinking his the fastest in the universe, indeed reflects on how cocky and arrogant he is as a character, but his also an unreliable source of information due to it.

While its true that Cabba does lose his composure after getting kicked, and while it certainly seems to smarts, its not a genuine problem, and Vegeta is still prompted into thinking that Cabba is equal to him in normal form. There is no area of dispute about this, at least in the anime. In the manga, he uses slightly more vague terminology and says "in your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself". While its a little more vague in the manga, the general point of Vegeta and Cabba being basically even is still there, albeit, with only slight room for deviation.

The anime makes it extremely clear that Vegeta base=Cabba Base, however, in the manga I think you could definitely say Vegeta base=>Cabba base, though the difference between them is still established to be negligible in the manga.

As for the fights between them in Super Saiyan form, they're still perfectly evenly matched(although in the anime, Cabba clearly has an edge at the beginning of the fight). There is still nothing to suggest there is a discrepancy between them in terms of power. Vegeta is smiling, because his enjoying himself, his happy that he was able to make Cabba grow stronger. There is no implication about strength there.

As for your out of breath thing, he is in no worse condition than Cabba in both the anime and manga.

As for your final actual paragrah, yes I can. Just because Vegeta is training Cabba by showing him the Super Saiyan levels of power he should strive to achieve, doesn't mean that Vegeta is inherently stronger than Cabba in his base form. Vegeta still has like 3 transformation levels above Cabba at that point, so even if he didn't go Blue, he could still have won using SS(as Cabba wasn't really used to the form at the time), and SS2.

So how do you rationalize the fact that Vegeta took a punch in the face from Cabba as a SSJ and he takes absolutely no damage and only smiles. I mean I know you say he is having fun, but if they were hypothetically even wouldn't he have taken damage from a direct hit to the face?

[JazzMazz]

What actually happens in a fight by feats alone should trump what a character says. Burter said that he's the fastest person in the universe. Are we supposed to take that as fact or use logic and information given in the show that contradict it?

Fact 1 - Both in the anime (8:40) and manga (Ch. 12, page 7), Vegeta kicks Cabba once and that's enough for Cabba to run out of breath and hold his arm. Vegeta says, "What's wrong? Are you tired already?". If there bases are equal why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Fact 2 - 9:17 of the anime, Vegeta says, "He's good! Looks like we're evenly matched in normal form", talking about the beam struggle of their Galick Guns. Since he's using "he's good" and not "you're good", I will give you that he's thinking to himself and not talking to Cabba. However, this is only being said during the beam struggle. In the manga, Vegeta says, that Cabba is accustomed to combat and tactics, and can hold his own against him in his normal state.

Fact 3 - SSJ Vegeta defeated SSJ Cabba. Cabba hit Vegeta several times only for Vegeta to smile and then get serious. SSJ is a multiplier of base. If their bases are equal, why is Vegeta smiling and acting like nothing even happened? If Base Vegeta = Base Cabba, why is Vegeta not out of breath?

Goku himself stated that Vegeta could have won easily without turning SSB. Vegeta turned SSB in order to show Cabba what's the next level. From the very start, Vegeta saw his own stance being copied by Cabba and then his own Galick Gun. Cabba begged during the middle of the battle to ask Vegeta to show him how to turn SSJ. Vegeta was training him during this entire fight. Can you really tell me that Base Vegeta = Base Cabba given all this information?

Just to be clear, I'm stating:

Base Vegeta > Base Cabba
SSJ Cabba > Base Vegeta
SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba

I wouldn't really say so, because what the characters say regarding each characters strength is the best indicator of genuine authorial intent, in contrast to people looking too deeply into fairly nothing scenes like your doing currently.

Your Burter example is disingenous, because its clearly not relevant to the conversation. Yes, Burter isn't the fastest person in the universe, but then again, the only person that said he was, was Burter himself, and that got immediately disproven. Burter thinking his the fastest in the universe, indeed reflects on how cocky and arrogant he is as a character, but his also an unreliable source of information due to it.

While its true that Cabba does lose his composure after getting kicked, and while it certainly seems to smarts, its not a genuine problem, and Vegeta is still prompted into thinking that Cabba is equal to him in normal form. There is no area of dispute about this, at least in the anime. In the manga, he uses slightly more vague terminology and says "in your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself". While its a little more vague in the manga, the general point of Vegeta and Cabba being basically even is still there, albeit, with only slight room for deviation.

The anime makes it extremely clear that Vegeta base=Cabba Base, however, in the manga I think you could definitely say Vegeta base=>Cabba base, though the difference between them is still established to be negligible in the manga.

As for the fights between them in Super Saiyan form, they're still perfectly evenly matched(although in the anime, Cabba clearly has an edge at the beginning of the fight). There is still nothing to suggest there is a discrepancy between them in terms of power. Vegeta is smiling, because his enjoying himself, his happy that he was able to make Cabba grow stronger. There is no implication about strength there.

As for your out of breath thing, he is in no worse condition than Cabba in both the anime and manga.

As for your final actual paragrah, yes I can. Just because Vegeta is training Cabba by showing him the Super Saiyan levels of power he should strive to achieve, doesn't mean that Vegeta is inherently stronger than Cabba in his base form. Vegeta still has like 3 transformation levels above Cabba at that point, so even if he didn't go Blue, he could still have won using SS(as Cabba wasn't really used to the form at the time), and SS2.

So how do you rationalize the fact that Vegeta took a punch in the face from Cabba as a SSJ and he takes absolutely no damage and only smiles. I mean I know you say he is having fun, but if they were hypothetically even wouldn't he have taken damage from a direct hit to the face?

He realized that Cabba couldn't sustain Super Saiyan, and correctly estimated his power would run out by the time the punch landed. Which it did.

How do you rationalize Vegeta genuinely getting the crap kicked out of him by Super Saiyan Cabba?

[PFM18]

I wouldn't really say so, because what the characters say regarding each characters strength is the best indicator of genuine authorial intent, in contrast to people looking too deeply into fairly nothing scenes like your doing currently.

Your Burter example is disingenous, because its clearly not relevant to the conversation. Yes, Burter isn't the fastest person in the universe, but then again, the only person that said he was, was Burter himself, and that got immediately disproven. Burter thinking his the fastest in the universe, indeed reflects on how cocky and arrogant he is as a character, but his also an unreliable source of information due to it.

While its true that Cabba does lose his composure after getting kicked, and while it certainly seems to smarts, its not a genuine problem, and Vegeta is still prompted into thinking that Cabba is equal to him in normal form. There is no area of dispute about this, at least in the anime. In the manga, he uses slightly more vague terminology and says "in your normal state, I would say you are about as strong as myself". While its a little more vague in the manga, the general point of Vegeta and Cabba being basically even is still there, albeit, with only slight room for deviation.

The anime makes it extremely clear that Vegeta base=Cabba Base, however, in the manga I think you could definitely say Vegeta base=>Cabba base, though the difference between them is still established to be negligible in the manga.

As for the fights between them in Super Saiyan form, they're still perfectly evenly matched(although in the anime, Cabba clearly has an edge at the beginning of the fight). There is still nothing to suggest there is a discrepancy between them in terms of power. Vegeta is smiling, because his enjoying himself, his happy that he was able to make Cabba grow stronger. There is no implication about strength there.

As for your out of breath thing, he is in no worse condition than Cabba in both the anime and manga.

As for your final actual paragrah, yes I can. Just because Vegeta is training Cabba by showing him the Super Saiyan levels of power he should strive to achieve, doesn't mean that Vegeta is inherently stronger than Cabba in his base form. Vegeta still has like 3 transformation levels above Cabba at that point, so even if he didn't go Blue, he could still have won using SS(as Cabba wasn't really used to the form at the time), and SS2.

So how do you rationalize the fact that Vegeta took a punch in the face from Cabba as a SSJ and he takes absolutely no damage and only smiles. I mean I know you say he is having fun, but if they were hypothetically even wouldn't he have taken damage from a direct hit to the face?

He realized that Cabba couldn't sustain Super Saiyan, and correctly estimated his power would run out by the time the punch landed. Which it did.

How do you rationalize Vegeta genuinely getting the crap kicked out of him by Super Saiyan Cabba?

I mean he doesn't really. Cabba gains an upperhand initially at the beginning of the fight. Vegeta was probably just surprised and caught off guard or something.

Again, I agree that Base Cabba=Base Vegeta I am just trying to illustrate that it isn't as cut and dry as you are making it out to be.

[shadowfox87]

How do you rationalize Vegeta genuinely getting the crap kicked out of him by Super Saiyan Cabba?

Simple, Vegeta let him. He's training Cabba. He was pretending to get hit which is why he smiles later on and then just pummels Cabba. In the very beginning of DB, Kid Goku has allowed opponents to kick the crap out of him to learn their style and then beat them thoroughly later. I understand your points, but I will conclude that Base Vegeta > Base Cabba, but by how much is probably not a lot. However, I do think that from the fight itself not the words of a character, is better proof.

[PFM18]

How do you rationalize Vegeta genuinely getting the crap kicked out of him by Super Saiyan Cabba?

Simple, Vegeta let him. He's training Cabba. He was pretending to get hit which is why he smiles later on and then just pummels Cabba. In the very beginning of DB, Kid Goku has allowed opponents to kick the crap out of him to learn their style and then beat them thoroughly later. I understand your points, but I will conclude that Base Vegeta > Base Cabba, but by how much is probably not a lot. However, I do think that from the fight itself not the words of a character, is better proof.

Don't you think it is possible that Vegeta gained the upperhand because he has mastered SSJ and Cabba has not? Cabba had just achieved the transformation and Vegeta has had the form for around 15 years. You could expect Vegeta to have less strain on his body.

[JazzMazz]

How do you rationalize Vegeta genuinely getting the crap kicked out of him by Super Saiyan Cabba?

Simple, Vegeta let him. He's training Cabba. He was pretending to get hit which is why he smiles later on and then just pummels Cabba. In the very beginning of DB, Kid Goku has allowed opponents to kick the crap out of him to learn their style and then beat them thoroughly later. I understand your points, but I will conclude that Base Vegeta > Base Cabba, but by how much is probably not a lot. However, I do think that from the fight itself not the words of a character, is better proof.

Even then, the fight itself dictates that Vegeta are Cabba, are roughly even fighters, so I don't understand saying " I do think that from the fight itself not the words of a character, is better proof", then ignoring the actual context, and contextualization in the fight.

Also, going to agree with PFM18 here, Vegeta was still teaching Cabba how to go Super Saiyan, that's why he couldn't maintain it for very long during the fight in the anime.

[shadowfox87]

Don't you think it is possible that Vegeta gained the upperhand because he has mastered SSJ and Cabba has not? Cabba had just achieved the transformation and Vegeta has had the form for around 15 years. You could expect Vegeta to have less strain on his body.

It's true that grade 4 of SSJ is about mastering stamina. However, that would only play into effect for long drawn out fights. Cabba becomes a SSJ for the first time but his multiplier is still the same as Vegeta's - 50x. The Grade 4 doesn't have a higher multiplier as we discussed in another thread. Vegeta doesn't get tired as easily but the fact that he won effortlessly against Cabba, shows that SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba and therefore, Base Vegeta > Base Cabba. Even before they turned SSJ, one kick by Vegeta was enough to get Cabba out of breath. I think that Vegeta respects Cabba because he reminds him of himself - same stance, same attacks (Galick Gun), etc. In the same case, Goku takes on Caulifla as a student during the ToP and plays with her. The actions and feats of the fights themselves should trump what a character says. The dialogue of a character is subjective and vague. It can be interpreted in different ways. However, the outcome of a fight is fact.

[PFM18]

Don't you think it is possible that Vegeta gained the upperhand because he has mastered SSJ and Cabba has not? Cabba had just achieved the transformation and Vegeta has had the form for around 15 years. You could expect Vegeta to have less strain on his body.

It's true that grade 4 of SSJ is about mastering stamina. However, that would only play into effect for long drawn out fights. Cabba becomes a SSJ for the first time but his multiplier is still the same as Vegeta's - 50x. The Grade 4 doesn't have a higher multiplier as we discussed in another thread. Vegeta doesn't get tired as easily but the fact that he won effortlessly against Cabba, shows that SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Cabba and therefore, Base Vegeta > Base Cabba. Even before they turned SSJ, one kick by Vegeta was enough to get Cabba out of breath. I think that Vegeta respects Cabba because he reminds him of himself - same stance, same attacks (Galick Gun), etc. In the same case, Goku takes on Caulifla as a student during the ToP and plays with her. The actions and feats of the fights themselves should trump what a character says. The dialogue of a character is subjective and vague. It can be interpreted in different ways. However, the outcome of a fight is fact.

Right Grade 4 and Grade 1 have the same multiplier. But it doesn't have to be an extremely long for the strain of Grade 1 to be felt where Vegeta doesn't feel it.

I don't know I am not really that concerned with that scene. It certainly seemed they were even in Base and Vegeta gained a slight edge at the latter end of the SSJ fight.

[shadowfox87]

I don't know I am not really that concerned with that scene. It certainly seemed they were even in Base and Vegeta gained a slight edge at the latter end of the SSJ fight.

How can they seem even when Cabba was running out of breath, holding his injured arm after 1 kick by Vegeta? Cabba landed multiple hits on Vegeta prior to that including a huge punch. Vegeta was just standing and smiling asking Cabba, "Are you already tired?". I mean I referenced and timestamped all the events. I feel like I'm repeating myself here. In any case, I don't think we'll agree so it's fine.

[JazzMazz]

I don't know I am not really that concerned with that scene. It certainly seemed they were even in Base and Vegeta gained a slight edge at the latter end of the SSJ fight.

How can they seem even when Cabba was running out of breath, holding his injured arm after 1 kick by Vegeta? Cabba landed multiple hits on Vegeta prior to that including a huge punch. Vegeta was just standing and smiling asking Cabba, "Are you already tired?". I mean I referenced and timestamped all the events. I feel like I'm repeating myself here. In any case, I don't think we'll agree so it's fine.

You keep on saying he was running out of breath, but across both versions, that was barely for a single scene, and he immediately got back up afterwards. Otherwise, he was in exactly the same position Vegeta was.

As for his injury, that was also not permanently damaging, as he was still able to use that arm perfectly fine afterwards. I think your just looking too much into characters feeling pain after recieving attacks.

As for your "out of stamina comment", that was clearly just Vegeta being a cocky bastard, and its something he immediately took back in the Galick Gun struggle, which occurred literally directly after that scene.

[DestructoDisc]

Krillin (ToP arc) vs Android 16
Slim Buu vs Buuhan
Magetta vs Katopesla
Ribrianne vs Monna
Piccolo (ToP arc) vs Final Form Freeza (ToP arc)

[Zamasu55]

Krillin (ToP arc) vs Android 16
Slim Buu vs Buuhan
Magetta vs Katopesla
Ribrianne vs Monna
Piccolo (ToP arc) vs Final Form Freeza (ToP arc)

- I think Krillin could be able to beat one of Namek Freeza's first forms, but he doesn't go further than that. 16 overkills.
- It's likely that Good Buu, by training, managed to re-obtain Fat Buu's strength, but Buuhan remains on a whole different level.
- Vegeta, even in his Blue state, needed to insult Magetta in order to beat him. Katopesla, on the other hand, was beaten very quickly by a simple Final Flash. The U6 metal man is much stronger.
- These two characters were a mess. At first, Ribrianne fought evenly with Ssj Vegeta and managed to break 17's barrier (something that only Hakaishin Toppo managed to do). A couple episodes later, she was overwhelmed by Base Saiyans.
As for Monna, she slaughtered Ssj Cabba but in the same episode, Base Vegeta could blast her away like nothing. I give up man.
- Freeza oneshots.

[Champa The Destroyer]

MUI Hit vs Jiren
SSB Vegeta (Saiyan Arc) vs 100% Freeza
UIO Trunks (Episode 47 of Super) vs Corrupted Merged Zamasu
SS3 Kaioken X20 (no stamina problems) vs Janemba

[theherodjl]

MUI Hit vs Jiren
SSB Vegeta (Saiyan Arc) vs 100% Freeza
UIO Trunks (Episode 47 of Super) vs Corrupted Merged Zamasu
SS3 Kaioken X20 (no stamina problems) vs Janemba

If Hit receives the same proportionate increase that Goku receives then Hit easily, especially since he'd have access to such strength on top of his abilities
SSJB Vegeta for sure. If Vegeta received God Ki on top of SSJB at any point in his life, from his childhood to maturity, then he'd pwn Pre-ROF Freeza hard.
Probably Corrupted Merged Zamasu, that is if Trunks doesn't have access to the PIS "Genki Dama sword". Zamasu managed to land a few blows on SSJB Vegetto who, according to Shin, is stronger than Beerus by some amount; making Corrupted Merged Zamasu, strength wise, about on par with Beerus.
If it could exist then SSJ3 Kaio-ken x 20. Janemba got pwned by SSJ Gogeta who is probably a bit stronger, if not around the same power as a hypothetical SSJ3 Kaio-ken x 20.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SS3 Kaioken X20 (no stamina problems) vs Janemba

Who is using SSJ3 with Kaioken x20? Goku?

[PFM18]

Also, I agree with you that base Cabba wouldn't in a million years, as of the TOP, be able to even slightly annoy Super Vegetto.
I think he would still be fodderized by Super Vegetto, even with his SS2.

I missed this little blurb. Cabba was even with Base Vegeta who was stronger than the Goku who's SSJ was>SSG. They got way stronger in their training with Whis and then trained for an additional 3 years and Cabba was STILL even with Vegeta. He would atleast be somewhere close to Buu Arc Super Vegetto in his Base and he would completely slaughter Vegetto if they are both Super Saiyan

I know you seem to think that there was a retcon but your only defense is the Lavender/Basil scenes.

[jeffbr92]

- SSJBE Rageta (permanent boost) vs. Jiren

[PFM18]

- SSJBE Rageta (permanent boost) vs. Jiren

Vegeta wins in a dominant effort. He could probably even 1 shot