Buu Saga Info

[RandomGuy96]

Yes I'm under the impression Buu takes on the traits of the Kaioshins.

South Kaioshin - Burly
Dai Kaioshib - Benevolent

So Buu's Absorbtion of them wouldn't have to be on any similar numerical scale as the Z fighters.

Except nothing even remotely implies that. It was noted that Dai Kaioshin was the only one to ever effect him uniquely. All we know is that Southy is the strongest of the gods, Buu absorbed him after just outright killing the first two, and Kid Buu with Southy absorbed is much stronger. None of this points to him effecting Buu uniquely, all of it just points to Southy being really strong. After all, why would Buu feel the need to absorb when he didn't do the same with Goku?

Okay, how about this. If we're playing the "Goku was lying because I said so" game... remember when he said he could've beaten Fatty? He was lying. Why? Oh, no reason. Then why did he try to take on Kid Buu if he was weaker than Fatty? Because he lied about that too, and proceeded to get wrecked. It was all part of his sick fantasy to either fuse with Vegeta forever or see him in tortuous pain for refusing his advances.

[Mjb1985]

Well they couldn't use Kaioshin ki to resurrect Buu. So I feel there is definitely a difference there. I also consider Ssj Gohan > South Kaioshin to be true due to the Zeta Sword sequence. So for me South Kaioshin being an addition won't work. I think it's an interesting theory , not everyone agrees on everything though.

Seeing a being absorb someone who's possibly very weak and going from a Ssj3 tier to a fusion Ssj3 tier screams multiplication to me.

I'm going to assume Kid Buu is happy to have his own body back after all these years and probably wouldn't be looking to absorb and alter himself anymore.

[Kamiccolo9]

Well they couldn't use Kaioshin ki to resurrect Buu. So I feel there is definitely a difference there. I also consider Ssj Gohan > South Kaioshin to be true due to the Zeta Sword sequence. So for me South Kaioshin being an addition won't work. I think it's an interesting theory , not everyone agrees on everything though.

Seeing a being absorb someone who's possibly very weak and going from a Ssj3 tier to a fusion Ssj3 tier screams multiplication to me.

I'm going to assume Kid Buu is happy to have his own body back after all these years and probably wouldn't be looking to absorb and alter himself anymore.

I came up with a theory a while back that explained why the Kaioshin energy couldn't be used to revive Buu. As I saw it, Bibidi saw the unpredictible effects that Kaioshin energy had on Buu (One made him stronger, one turned him into an obese simpleton) that when he created the sealing spell, he ensured that Kaioshin energy could not be used. It was too risky.

[Mjb1985]

I like it! Fits in well with my theory. How do you like the idea of Kid Buu absorbing East Kaioshin and becoming an incompetent clueless being that is afraid of people he can easily destroy? Haha

[Kamiccolo9]

Well, he does seem to take on some of the traits of those he absorbs as well, so I can definitely see a drop in confidence. Although I see Kaioshin as a generally competent guy who is suffering from a couple millenia worth unaddressed PTSD.
I seem to remember in one of the Budokai games, where Cell absorbed Krillin, and ends up weaker and less confident. Maybe something like that could happen.
Edit: Another possible explanation is that we learn in Battle of Gods that gods have a special form of ki. It could be that this ki is incompatible with the sealing spell.

[Draken]

No. I think Kid Buu > Super Buu, so ... I'm not a fanboy man, I just have another explianation than you.
I think I tell everything, i'm not going to pass my life on this subject, we have two different point of view on this. Just disappointed that with all I bring on, you never respect what I say. You take all your time to discredit what I say, but never try to answer to the weaknesses of your argumentation lol.
And for Draken : You're mocking me, you're pathetic. Whatever you think, it's not stated and I'm sure it's awful for you, you have to make everybody agrees with this

And yes, I am interpreting, but I'm based on the first lie of Goku. You, with South Kaioshin, based on nothing. As I said, there isn't any Kaioshin who have increased Buu's power, that's the opposite.

I will troll you to finish : the only clear statment is the anime which takes the risk to put clearly Kid Buu and Goku above. You can think that's a shame, but nothing contradicts it, or at least as there are arguments against your theory. And that's the way that Toei chose.

Ow that hurt. Where's the mock? When I said you are interpreting things, just like we are, but in the opposite direction? When I ask you what your problem is with us interpreting the South Kaioshin Buu absorption, because you are doing the same thing? When I agree with your statement that Goku had no reason to lie? Please, point out how I'm so pathetic in this debate.

[Mjb1985]

Yea he's crazy. Even if you go by Base Saiyans > Kaioshin like I do, the man literally immobilized Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. And struck Fat Buu with way more force than Dabura or Super Saiyan Gohan were capable of. I mean c'mon man really? If you can push Buu back like that you are scared of Pui Pui of all people.

Which brings me to my theory why that happened and I think perhaps Dabura's prescense somehow negates his abilty to use those techniques. ( He can't do anything now that I'm here ) which can just be taken as Dabura > Kaioshin , but I try to clean up the mess that is the Buu Saga.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yea he's crazy. Even if you go by Base Saiyans > Kaioshin like I do, the man literally immobilized Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. And struck Fat Buu with way more force than Dabura or Super Saiyan Gohan were capable of. I mean c'mon man really? If you can push Buu back like that you are scared of Pui Pui of all people.

Which brings me to my theory why that happened and I think perhaps Dabura's prescense somehow negates his abilty to use those techniques. ( He can't do anything now that I'm here ) which can just be taken as Dabura > Kaioshin , but I try to clean up the mess that is the Buu Saga.

I don't think that the base Saiyans are stronger than Kaioshin. Kibito is mentioned to be trouble for base Gohan, and Kaioshin is far beyond him. Also, Piccolo states that Kaioshin is much stronger than he is. I would put him somewhere between Piccolo and the Super Saiyans.
As for him being scared of Pui-Pui, I addressed this in another thread recently.

I wouldn't say so much that he is dumb, instead he seems more like he's out of his depth. Remember, at the time of Buu's creation, he was the youngest, weakest, and least experienced of the Kaioshins. Then suddenly all the responsibility for overseeing the entire universe falls on him alone.
Fast forward to the present. The son of the man who created the monster that killed his friends/family is trying to revive said monster. He finds these mortals who he had never noticed before, and are much stronger than he, the god of gods, is. He spends most of his time on Earth in denial of their strength, and overestimates his enemies because they are associated with Buu.
Later on, when he sees that there may be a chance to win, of course he tries to join in the fight. He wants to be there when Buu is defeated; he alone knows how much of a monster Buu truly is, and wants to be a part of the victory against the monster he has been terrified of for millenia. It's totally natural for him to want to contribute.

He's irrational throughout the arc due to his overwhelming fear of Buu, but that does not make him a dumb character.

So basically you're affectionately calling him a coward?

Not really. He's more like a PTSD victim. He is willing to risk his life fighting Fat Buu later, jumps at the chance to help Goku against Buutenks, and he jumps in to save Goku and Vegeta from Pure Buu, so I don't think it's really fair to call him a coward.
Also, being afraid of someone who is many times stronger than you are, and could swat you like a bug, isn't cowardice. It's self-preservation.

[Mjb1985]

Well my point wasn't to address Kaioshin's placement , it was brought up only to point out even if you put him at the lowest placement , it still doesn't make sense due to his psychic or magical feats.

But I don't mind dabbling in that a bit.

I don't feel the Kibito stuff was regarding Gohan's actual full power in base. It was just that Kibito isn't an opponent he could fight and retain an appearance of being a normal human to his school mates.

I think Piccolo quitting against Kaioshin was more about Kami's sixth sense about his potential godliness more than power level. Considering Kibito and Kaioshin weren't sensed by anyone else , I don't buy that Piccolo being 50 feet closer to him would allow him to do so . Lets not forget Freeza and Cold were sensed outside of Earth's atmosphere.

The Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is a viable piece of logic. Not everyone agrees on Kaioshin's placement , but it's not like I pulled it out of my butt. Lol.

Also I wouldn't say Kaioshin was in denial of the Saiyans strength. He told Goku off the bat that he couldn't hope to beat him , he just didn't realize the depths of their power.

[RandomGuy96]

You do know that SS Gohan being stronger than SK is not set in stone, right? We don't know if SK tried to pull the sword (all we know is that more than one god did), we don't know if it based on power level (the gravity training seems to suggest what you can lift is not proportionate to power level), et cetera. All we know is that SK was the strongest of the Kaioshin (the weakest was at least stronger than a Cell Junior), that Buu felt the need to absorb him after flat-out killing two other Kaisohin (then Goku and Vegeta), and that he made Buu very strong. And from both a Watsonian and Doylist perspective, shouldn't Kibito Kai have mentioned that he randomly multiplied Buu, rather than just mentioning that he was strong? I'm sorry but without random fanon pulled out of nowhere, SK being a lot stronger than Goku and Kid Buu is pretty unavoidable.

And East being weaker than the base saiyans is just impossible.

[Mjb1985]

Absolutely. Considering AT's writing style in which he writes the story by the seat of his pants , it's quite possible the thought of South Kaioshin never occurred to him during the Zeta Sword portion of the manga. Which is why I'm not opposed to South Kaioshin being superior to Super Saiyan Gohan , but for me going by my gut , there's just not enoug evidence for me to refute that statement. I don't think Kaioshin would think in the back of his mind " Oh man only if South Kaioshin wasn't so secure in his strength and pulled the Zeta sword out and defeated Buu... "

[Zephyr]

It's also a big interpretation with South Kaioshin, because the manga shows us that energy of two Kaioshin are not compatible with Buu. Babidi said that about East Kaioshin, and Dai Kai Shin is the second example. And it never shows a single Kaioshin could increase Buu's power. This is the opposite. Don't turn the thing the way you want !

Actually, if I'm remembering all of this correctly, it only says that Kaioshin's (and Kibito's actually, who isn't a Kaioshin) energy can't be used to revive Buu. And the only thing about Dai Kaioshin that is said to lower Buu's power is his heart, or something to that effect.

The thing about Kaioshin magic and Buu magic being simply incompatible is a fan theory. It's one I subscribe to myself, but it's nothing more than a fan theory. The fan theory isn't necessary for rationalizing the story. It's necessary for maintaining one viewpoint, but not for another.

[Mjb1985]

Yes the fan theory consists of the logic that since Kaioshin ki is specifically stated to not be used to revive Buu , while Goku and Gohan's ki is able to , there is a difference there. Which is factual.

Then with the surrounding logic of how Buu's power varies , people put two and two together and wala! A reasonable logical fan theory!

[Undertaker]

SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was at least as strong as SSJ3 Goku because he was felt from the Kaioshin realm and since it's stated and not contradicted. SSJ Gotenks (Post) is far stronger and SSJ3 Gotenks is in a different league. Gotenks smashes Goku with his nails. People who say otherwise are trolls being in denial.

[Mjb1985]

That seems to be a fair assessment of Gotenks power.

[Kamiccolo9]

SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was at least as strong as SSJ3 Goku because he was felt from the Kaioshin realm and since it's stated and not contradicted. SSJ Gotenks (Post) is far stronger and SSJ3 Gotenks is in a different league. Gotenks smashes Goku with his nails. People who say otherwise are trolls being in denial.

To be fair, Pure Buu sensed Goku and Vegeta's power when they were in the Kaioshin realm, and they were just Super Saiyans.

[Undertaker]

That seems to be a fair assessment of Gotenks power.

Why is it still being debatable? It's getting ridiculous. Canon is sensible. It's not like we are arguing about non canon.

[Undertaker]

SSJ Gotenks (Pre) was at least as strong as SSJ3 Goku because he was felt from the Kaioshin realm and since it's stated and not contradicted. SSJ Gotenks (Post) is far stronger and SSJ3 Gotenks is in a different league. Gotenks smashes Goku with his nails. People who say otherwise are trolls being in denial.

To be fair, Pure Buu sensed Goku and Vegeta's power when they were in the Kaioshin realm, and they were just Super Saiyans.

He never sensed them as Kaioshin's IT is not based on ki. Not to mention they never powered up. You can't feel them if they are not powered up. Goku and Gohan were felt when they were powered up. Kibiot said only Goku was felt from this distance while Fat Buu was not

[Mjb1985]

Was just coming here to say that.

[Undertaker]

Was just coming here to say that.

Say what?