How strong was Dabura?

[Mjb1985]

Vegeta still appears to be a Ssj to me there. There are clear differences between the two forms.

[TheMightyOzaru]

SSJ2s always have that sharp aura when their aura is showing, there's no inconsistency there. I'm also not sure what the anime has to with the manga, it's very inconsistent with the sparks.

You've confused simple observation for evidence; I've seen SSj2s drawn without sharp auras.

Spoiler:

No you haven't. He's still a SSJ here .

[Kamiccolo9]

Yeah, Vegeta didn't go SSJ2 until the fight against Goku.

[Son_Gohan]

SSJ2s always have that sharp aura when their aura is showing, there's no inconsistency there. I'm also not sure what the anime has to with the manga, it's very inconsistent with the sparks.

You've confused simple observation for evidence; I've seen SSj2s drawn without sharp auras.

Spoiler:

No you haven't. He's still a SSJ here .

Yes I have.

Spoiler:

Even in art your position is not demonstrated as consistent. And if you tried to debate logic and story elements, where all the evidence is already on my side, you wouldn't get away with any contrived theories of what you think was going on in Gohan's mind that's unsupported in the actual material, I'd call you out on it right away. Yup, I think we're done now.

[Mjb1985]

92 out of 100 panels would be consistent imo.

If the general Ssj2 has a 92% consistency rating and Gohan appears to have zero Ssj2 traits over the course of 20 panels, isn't it safe to say that Gohan wasn't a Ssj2?

[TheMightyOzaru]

You win this round -_-. However, the sparks are still constant irregardless. I would like to point out, however, the sharp aura is usually constant. Gohan doesn't have that aura once in his fight with Dabura.

[Kaboom]

The aura sparks are a key trait of Super Saiyan 2, but nobody would or should claim that they're exclusive to it. They're a certain special effect, seen in other instances, but still one which is obviously always present in Super Saiyan 2s. Like how all Super Saiyans have blonde hair, but that doesn't make Erasa a Super Saiyan.

[TheGmGoken]

The aura sparks are a key trait of Super Saiyan 2, but nobody would or should claim that they're exclusive to it. They're a certain special effect, seen in other instances, but still one which is obviously always present in Super Saiyan 2s. Like how all Super Saiyans have blonde hair, but that doesn't make Erasa a Super Saiyan.

A better example is Lunch. She got almost all the traits of a SSJ. Resting or Full Power SSJ as you might say.



Her eyes are almost SSJ colored.

[Mjb1985]

What is the deal with all of this Resting stuff man? It's just suppression. There's nothing special about it except that they can now do it for Super Saiyan. This resting stuff is really annoying. There is no " resting " anything!

[TheMightyOzaru]

What is the deal with all of this Resting stuff man? It's just suppression. There's nothing special about it except that they can now do it for Super Saiyan. This resting stuff is really annoying. There is no " resting " anything!

It's just what people call it.

[Mjb1985]

But there is literally no such thing. There's zero purpose for it. It's just suppression.

[Bussani]

But there is literally no such thing. There's zero purpose for it. It's just suppression.

It's probably just different people using slightly different terminology. If you consider anything below their maximum to be "suppressed", then what you're saying makes sense. Someone else might only consider it "suppressed" if they're pushing their power down below a normal, relaxed level, which is in turn different from when they're putting out all of their power in the middle of the fight. Neither way is really right or wrong--it's a preference, and might even depend on how you're trying to explain something at the time.

[Mjb1985]

I guess all that M8 Goku = Resting Goku stuff made me crazy. I hate hate hate hate that term now! Alright I'm done. I'm going to try to focus on manga related stuff only. Most of the movies end up with getting into awkward debates. Going to stick with the manga only debates for a while.

[Fionordequester]

Alright Kaboom and MightyOozaru, I thought your line of reasoning in regards to my hypothetical question...

supposing that, hypothetically, Piccolo knew what 100% of Freeza's power was like (unlike my last example), and knew exactly what it was. Suppose the three years pass after Goku defeats Frieza, as normal. Sometime during their preparation for the Androids, Piccolo says to someone "I've become as strong as Freeza now!". Now, is it more likely that he means...

A) Freeza at around a third of his strength?

B) Freeza at 50% of his strength?

C) Freeza at 100% of his power?

...was ridiculous (not that YOU GUYS are ridiculous, only your statement there)...but instead of flat out saying so was absurd, I took the time to essentially conduct a survey asking as many forum members as I could this very question. The results?

I'd say C. Concerning the "now" part of that line, it sounds more like he's referring to himself than Freeza's current state and level of power at the time. If he meant that he's as strong as Freeza currently is, I imagine the line would be a bit more specific like "I'm as strong as Freeza is right now."

Unless Cyborg Freeza's power on Earth was equivalent to his 100% on Namek, I'd base what Piccolo would be saying on the last time he was in-battle with Freeza, which would be at his 50% power [so Option B].

Even though this isn't my forte, I'll give it a try. I would say C), because it would make the most sense without clarification, flows better dialogue-wise, and would also be the most impressive when gauging his power against new enemies.

With the way you worded your question I'm going to have to guess C

Whichever choice is First Form Freeza because Freeza at full power is not how Freeza is all the time.

I'd say B. Saying your as strong as someone doesn't have to mean their 100%. Just at their level of strength

Neither. It would most likely mean that he is equally as strong as Freeza's 100% power before he became Mecha-Freeza. So, he would still actually be weaker. [So basically, C, if I had worded the question better. I reworded the question slightly to avoid this answer in the future]

I'd say C. If Piccolo is comparing himself to Freeza he's obviously talking about Freeza at his best. If he meant a third or half Freeza's power, he would say so. He wouldn't say "I'm as strong as Freeza!" if he didn't mean he was as strong as Freeza. He would say "I'm a third as strong as Freeza!" or "I'm half as strong as Freeza!" A third of Freeza's power is not as strong as Freeza. Fifty percent of Freeza's power isn't as strong as Freeza, either. "As strong as Freeza" means "one hundred percent of Freeza's power." It's as simple as that. Why would one boast that they're as strong as Freeza when they're not as strong as Freeza? I apologize if I didn't articulate my response that well.

Um, C maybe? I don't know why I'm being asked this. I don't really care much about power levels and am a mostly casually forum goer.

Most likely either B) or C).[How about we count this as 1 point for both answers, just for neatnesses sake?]

What is this DBZ math? Interesting question, I would have to go with C. Freeza at his full power since you said Piccolo was aware of it, no reason three years later he'd refer to his inferior form.

Hmm good question...how come ya asked me?!?!!?

Well, I'd assume he meant C,Freeza at 100% of his power, because at that point everyone would know, or get pretty close to knowing, what Freezas true power level was...even if Piccolo didn't tell them...hypothetically.

Gohan fought Freeza when he was almost...or maybe at his true power (I can't remember) and so did Goku..so one of them were bound to tell the others how strong he truly was... But if there was no Mecha Freeza...then doesnt Goku die?

Um, I would assume C. Because if someone told me that they had surpassed another person, I would assume its the latter person at their highest known strength.

C.

Freeza 50% because piccolo isn't as strong as the super saiyans who are stronger as freeza [So Option B]

I'd say 100% myself.

You're going for the comparing Dabura to Cell thing, right? Yeah, I think Gohan had to be SSJ2, and Toriyama just forgot the lightning (the whole situation doesn't make sense to be otherwise).

I don't know. [I'll count this as a point to both Option A and Option B]

Yeah, if it assumed than yes, C!

Maybe... B, I guess.

Piccolo is ambitious, so for me: 100% power

C) Piccolo would mean that he is as strong as Freeza at 100% of his power.

I would say that if Piccolo felt Freeza's power at 100% and he made the statement as long as it isn't later contradicted I would say Piccolo= 100% Freeza.

** off. I took time out of my busy And fulfilling life to read this. You're a waste of my time.[I dunno, I thought it was an amusing answer

He felt Freeza's 70% power in Namek because after the Genki Dama Freeza used his 70% power. And he probably was also told that Freeza was even stronger than what he felt in Namek.

So if he said "I'm as strong as Freeza" he would mean at least his 70% power and almost certainly more than that.

Since he would have to guess what Freeza's full power had been, if he said that "I'm as strong as Freeza's full power", he could be underestimating or overestimating, so he could actually be stronger or weaker, but not by a huge margin.

Well this is supposing he DIDN'T have to guess what 100% was. But basically, you're saying that Piccolo would be comparing himself to AT LEAST the strongest amount of power that he knew that Freeza was putting out?

Yes, at the very least. It wouldn't make sense for him, as a proud warrior, to state that he was as strong as Freeza if he hadn't at least matched the maximum power he had felt from Freeza.

Hmm, interesting - perhaps I've misunderstood your question, but given that the hypothetical terms you outline include the notion that Piccolo is aware of 100% of Freeza's power then that would seem to be what he is referring to.

I'll take C - if "Piccolo knew what 100% of Freeza's power was like" must be true...

D) Why are you asking me this question? [ ]

Well, if Piccolo knew Freeza's power and what he looked like at 100%, he would not say that. He'd tell someone the truth and pretty much fight anyways, like the fight with Nappa.

But, from your 3 choices I'd say; A) Freeza at around a third of his strength? When Freeza met Piccolo, he was already using close to a third of his power. Piccolo could evenly fight Freeza then, but it's not in his character to lie about battle power. Interesting question, I hope my reply made sense.

Thanks,
Kienzan88gt

I don't really follow In-Universe discussions that much, but just based on what you said, I'd have to say that, if he said that, he would mean 100% of his power unless the "now" you put at the end has significance and specifically refers to how much power he has at that moment, which would then refer to whatever point in time he's talking about. But, if this is an actual quote, that would be very much dependent on the nuances of the original Japanese.

I would say he's talking about 100% Freeza since he knows of that particular strength. I couldn't think of a reason why he would mean anything else.

So, C.

Well, if he knew what Freeza's 100 percent power is, then I would reckon he is talking about 100 percent.

Personally, I don't really do battle power discussions and I have no idea why you're contacting me about it. Wouldn't it be better to ask someone like Kaboom about it?

Hm..this is a tricky one. And since there is no Mecha Freza, then 100% of Freeza's power would be his full powered form, which is actually his strongest one. In this case, it should be C.

Hypothetically, I feel it'd come down to one of two possibilities. Either C) or an option that you didn't mention, which would be "As strong as everyone else knows Freeza was". Personally, I'd consider C to be the most viable.

I'm big into always assume full power. If someone says Cell or Freeza or whoever, your initial point of view should automatically the maximum the fighter showed.

And then there were four dudes I interviewed outside of Kanzenshuu, using basically the same hypothetical except replaced with generic terms like "the Villains 33%, 50%, or 100%, and "a sidekick" saying he was as strong as the villain this time"...

Probably the 100%

Key word is after so 100\

Probably the final state.

Indeed I think the 100

The score tally?

Option A: 2

Option B: 5

Option C: 32

So basically, people BY FAR picked Option C by a landslide, that Piccolo would have been referring to Frieza's 100% power. And even though what WE'RE discussing is what Goku meant by Cell's 100% power, can we at least CONSIDER that it was fairly LIKELY that Mr. Toriyama intention behind Goku's line was to tell us that Dabura was around as strong as Full Power Perfect Cell or stronger, ESPECIALLY since Goku explicitly states afterwards "wow, this guy is a lot tougher than I thought!"?

[Undertaker]

Gohan was a SSJ vs Dabura, why is it still being debatable?

[hleV]

The difference between Piccolo saying that he's as strong as Freeza and Goku saying that Dabra is as strong as Cell is that in Piccolo's case, he's talking about himself rather than someone else, so it would be weird for him to say he's as strong as Freeza if he wasn't as strong as 100% or Mecha Freeza. Goku, however, didn't speak about himself but compared someone else to someone else.

Basically, I find a hero comparing a villain to another villain quite different from a hero comparing himself to a villain. Not to mention that Goku said 7 years ago, Dabra would've been trouble. Then mentioned Cell. Does Dabra have to be at SPC's level to have been trouble 7 years ago? NO. It's all about the details and making sense out of shit that forced me to believe that Goku didn't mean SPC.

[Fionordequester]

The difference between Piccolo saying that he's as strong as Freeza and Goku saying that Dabra is as strong as Cell is that in Piccolo's case, he's talking about himself rather than someone else, so it would be weird for him to say he's as strong as Freeza if he wasn't as strong as 100% or Mecha Freeza. Goku, however, didn't speak about himself but compared someone else to someone else.

Basically, I find a hero comparing a villain to another villain quite different from a hero comparing himself to a villain. Not to mention that Goku said 7 years ago, Dabra would've been trouble. Then mentioned Cell. Does Dabra have to be at SPC's level to have been trouble 7 years ago? NO. It's all about the details and making sense out of shit that forced me to believe that Goku didn't mean SPC.

Would it be fair to say that Goku was probably at least referring to Perfect Cell at his full power? Otherwise, I don't even see the point in comparing Dabura to Cell, especially not from a storytelling perspective.

In fact, the very fact that Goku's saying that Dabura would've been a threat to them makes me think that whatever state Goku was thinking of definitely wasn't the one that Goku himself almost killed with a Kamehameha (that is, Suppressed Perfect Cell).

[hleV]

Goku was comparing Dabra to Cell because there was nobody else to compare Dabra to. It would make more sense if Dabra was compared to full-power Perfect Cell, because Goku stood there and saw his strength. However I'm not against it actually being suppressed Perfect Cell, as that's the Cell Goku actually fought and knows the best. Basically, if Dabra was as strong or even weaker than suppressed Perfect Cell, it would still make most sense to compare him to Cell and not somebody else. He would've still been trouble 7 years ago.

[Fionordequester]

Basically, if Dabra was as strong or even weaker than suppressed Perfect Cell, it would still make most sense to compare him to Cell and not somebody else.

I would think Goku would know better than to think of Cell as him in his suppressed state, considering that his whole entire battle plan consisted of him relying on Gohan to go SSJ2 when pushed. At absolutely NO POINT in that entire tournament arc was Goku under any illusions that Cell was giving his all in his fight against him, saying things like "I dunno about Cell, but I was giving it everything I had".

So at the very least, Goku definitely knew Perfect Cell's Full Power as well as he did his Suppressed State, if not perhaps his Super Perfect State.

[Zephyr]

This sounds like there's being way too much being read into Goku's line. If you want to read more-deeply-than-necessary into the statement, then you should also note that (in the strength checker, at least) Goku says "about" as strong as Cell, which can (if you really, really want to start reading unnecessarily deeply into things) be interpreted as Dabura still being weaker than Cell (in whatever form is being alluded to). I really doubt Toriyama out of universe, nor Goku in universe, had anything in mind with that statement other than "he's on the same level as the latest toughest guy we fought!" as a simple means of raising the stakes. And the comparison works just as well regardless of which form of Cell is being alluded to.

And I still hold the point of view that Goku was referring to Cell in general. He was the previous big bad. Dabura is so powerful, that the only guy comparable to him that they've seen was the previous big bad.

There's also still the matter of Vegeta saying that he or Goku could take Dabura, when the fact that both of them had access to SSj2 wasn't exactly implied, stated, or anything of the kind.

But it seems like this is a never-ending argument going in circles, so can I suggest a simple compromise? Gohan was a weakened/false/half SSj2, meaning the sparks didn't show up, he wasn't nearly at the level of a true SSj2, and folks in this tier could be taken care of my a well-combat-suited SSj1. That way we can both accept the Daiz statement that he was (a sort of) SSj2, and we can also accept that true, fully-attained SSj2's do in fact have the sparks.