Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Blackstripe
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by Blackstripe » Mon Jun 08, 2015 2:14 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm done with this discussion. You are bringing up the terms "canon" & "non-canon", even though they mean nothing to the Dragon Ball franchise, because it doesn't have a defined canon. Even things like the movies are stated to take place in different dimensions, not that they are non-canon. It's been officially shown & stated that the movies take place in different dimensions, and that GT takes place in an alternative timeline that was created because of Future Trunks, and BoG takes place in this timeline as well.
Of course Akira Toriyama never came out and just said "No, that didn't happen. I do not consider the events of that series to be a part of my storyline."
He didn't say it like that because it would be incredibly
rude to do so. He phrased it as "another dimension" in order to be polite. It's just tatemae, nothing more. He doesn't consider it canon. He contradicts it without concern, and doesn't feel any other need to explain it, because to Japanese fans it's freakin'
obvious. It doesn't require constant repeating to drill in that GT isn't canon.
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Low Tone G
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by Low Tone G » Mon Jun 08, 2015 4:01 am
Blackstripe wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm done with this discussion. You are bringing up the terms "canon" & "non-canon", even though they mean nothing to the Dragon Ball franchise, because it doesn't have a defined canon. Even things like the movies are stated to take place in different dimensions, not that they are non-canon. It's been officially shown & stated that the movies take place in different dimensions, and that GT takes place in an alternative timeline that was created because of Future Trunks, and BoG takes place in this timeline as well.
Of course Akira Toriyama never came out and just said "No, that didn't happen. I do not consider the events of that series to be a part of my storyline."
He didn't say it like that because it would be incredibly
rude to do so. He phrased it as "another dimension" in order to be polite. It's just tatemae, nothing more. He doesn't consider it canon. He contradicts it without concern, and doesn't feel any other need to explain it, because to Japanese fans it's freakin'
obvious. It doesn't require constant repeating to drill in that GT isn't canon.
There is not such a thing
canon in Dragon Ball. There are
storylines. The most important and the first one is Toriyama's. So if fillers already exist which may or not contradict the manga, Jaco(+DB Minus), BOG and R[F], there's the possibility for Toriyama to disregard all the medias which has not been created by him. He can do whatever he wants, he can incorporate characters into his storyline(Bardock, Tsufuru-jins, etc.) or totally ignore characters. He can also incorporate GT events into his story, or ignore it. Even if Bardock had had a story, now he is way more different than we knew him before Dragon Ball Minus.... So he is allowed to use other medias , or anime-only characters, moves and places, but he can generate own ideas that might contradict them as well.
We can not be sure that GT did not (or more correctly will not) happen in Toriyama's storyline as we are still in the AGE 784 of EOZ and we are know nothing about Super. I can imagine Toriyama to take GT ideas but not keep the whole story as is. Or totally ignore it. Moreover, he can keep it's ending but invent a new story for the period.
English is not my first language!
I'm still waiting for Dragon Ball in Super...
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Bullza
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by Bullza » Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:51 pm
Of course there's a canon, canon refers to work that is considered official and there is an official history. Toriyama already completely ignored GT when he created the timeline for Dragon Ball Online and now appears to be doing the same thing again with these movies and almost certainly Super if it progresses that far.
Like Black stripe says it'd be impolite to just say that all these movies they were making just didn't happen plus it's a bad move for marketing. Saying they take place in another dimension shouldn't be taken literally but as a polite way of saying they didn't happen in his story.
There's no need for him to come out and say GT is non canon. It's almost universally known by Dragon Ball fans that it isn't. This is the only site that I know of that even brings up this whole "there is no canon" thing.
Dragon Ball Super could completely overwrite the period that GT covered and there would still be people who'd argue the fact it wasn't canon simply because nobody had said it.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jun 08, 2015 5:34 pm
It is stated that BoG takes place before GT, the timeline of the series place the BoG & GT in the same timeline, and XV says that GT takes place in an alternative timeline created by Future Trunks' time-travels. This means that GT takes place in an alternative timeline where BoG happened, and that there is a timeline where BoG happened, and GT didn't happen.
The original movies are stated to take place in different dimensions by both Toriyama & Daizenshuu 6, and XV, which takes place in the main dimension, shows these different dimensions.
All these are facts. They are not non-canon.
Blackstripe wrote:Of course Akira Toriyama never came out and just said "No, that didn't happen. I do not consider the events of that series to be a part of my storyline."
He didn't say it like that because it would be incredibly rude to do so.
Can you prove this, or this is just an assumption?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Bullza
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by Bullza » Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:13 pm
The press statement said it took place between DBZ and DBGT, which isn't even accurate as it took place within the events of DBZ and as I said that's true whether it is canon or non canon.
They more specifically said it took place between two chapters of the manga. Battle of Gods and Resurrection F tie in with the manga and GT and the other movies do not.
If they want to keep the movies and GT involved by just waving them off as taking place in another dimension entirely then there's no harm in that but when people refer to what is and isn't canon it's in regards to Toriyama's story and those things are not canon in regards to his story and the new movies are.
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Blackstripe
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by Blackstripe » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:00 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It is stated that BoG takes place before GT, the timeline of the series place the BoG & GT in the same timeline, and XV says that GT takes place in an alternative timeline created by Future Trunks' time-travels. This means that GT takes place in an alternative timeline where BoG happened, and that there is a timeline where BoG happened, and GT didn't happen.
The original movies are stated to take place in different dimensions by both Toriyama & Daizenshuu 6, and XV, which takes place in the main dimension, shows these different dimensions.
All these are facts. They are not non-canon.
Blackstripe wrote:Of course Akira Toriyama never came out and just said "No, that didn't happen. I do not consider the events of that series to be a part of my storyline."
He didn't say it like that because it would be incredibly rude to do so.
Can you prove this, or this is just an assumption?
I told you already, he was showing common Japanese etiquette. The burden of proof is with you, since you seem to desperately want GT to be considered canon, for some reason. Akira Toriyama has said they're not part of his story, which is the canon story of Dragon Ball, so they're therefore not canon.
Perhaps you misunderstand what canon means? Is that the problem here? In the context of a fictional work, canon means the work of a writer (in this case, Akira Toriyama) that has been accepted as authentic. If Akira Toriyama didn't have a hand in writing it, it's therefore not canon. He did not write GT, and seems intent on ignoring it, so it is therefore not canon. The only way it
would be canon is if he expressly said it was or integrated it into Super or another movie.
To put it another way, it isn't on me to prove that GT isn't canon, it's on
you to prove that it
is canon since the original author seems to disregard it as part of his story.
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sintzu
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by sintzu » Tue Jun 09, 2015 5:29 am
Saying there's no Canon is like saying there's no rules and plot lines that need to be followed while moving foreword with the story.
Bullza wrote:This is the only site that I know of that even brings up this whole "there is no canon" thing.
That's because saying no to something nowadays is politically incorrect so they say "there is no canon" to keep everyone happy but like other popular Shonen DB does have a canon which is the stories written by Toriyama.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:40 pm
I'm not "desperately trying to make GT canon", I'm going by what is officially shown to us. It is obvious at the moment what Toriyama follows and what he ignores, but Toriyama isn't the only one who owns the franchise, and he doesn't make all the decisions. The main timeline of Shueisha so far was Dragon Ball (+fillers), Dragon Ball Z (+fillers), Z Movies 1 & 5, Z TV Specials 1 & 2, Jump Super Anime Tour Special, Episode of Bardock, Battle of Gods, and Dragon Ball GT (+TV Special), with Z Movies 9 & 13 and Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission fitting within that continuity as well, and with the rest of the movies & Neko Majin taking place in different dimensions. They also seem to go by another continuity, the manga continuity (which manga-only guides cover), where the Kanzenban manga takes place, and going by Toriyama, Jaco, JSAT, BoG, and FnF take place in that continuity as well, and Super will most likely take place in that continuity. With the release of Dragon Ball XenoVerse, Dragon Ball GT became an alternate timeline, possibly because Dragon Ball Super will replace it.
These are all official, I'm not making them up. As far as official sources go, GT isn't non-canon, it's an alternate timeline like Trunks' timeline. We have a multiverse like in the Marvel & DC multiverses.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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NeoKING
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by NeoKING » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:37 pm
17 pages off-topic, incredible.
SSGSS is Super Saiyan becoming a Super Saiyan God, as opposed to BoG where Goku went SSG then became a SSJ.
It's also unnecessary and only really around to market new toys + give Goku an excuse to use more traditional martial arts choreography.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:54 am
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not "desperately trying to make GT canon", I'm going by what is officially shown to us. It is obvious at the moment what Toriyama follows and what he ignores, but Toriyama isn't the only one who owns the franchise, and he doesn't make all the decisions. The main timeline of Shueisha so far was Dragon Ball (+fillers), Dragon Ball Z (+fillers), Z Movies 1 & 5, Z TV Specials 1 & 2, Jump Super Anime Tour Special, Episode of Bardock, Battle of Gods, and Dragon Ball GT (+TV Special), with Z Movies 9 & 13 and Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission fitting within that continuity as well, and with the rest of the movies & Neko Majin taking place in different dimensions. They also seem to go by another continuity, the manga continuity (which manga-only guides cover), where the Kanzenban manga takes place, and going by Toriyama, Jaco, JSAT, BoG, and FnF take place in that continuity as well, and Super will most likely take place in that continuity. With the release of Dragon Ball XenoVerse, Dragon Ball GT became an alternate timeline, possibly because Dragon Ball Super will replace it.
These are all official, I'm not making them up. As far as official sources go, GT isn't non-canon, it's an alternate timeline like Trunks' timeline. We have a multiverse like in the Marvel & DC multiverses.
If it's a different timeline then it has no place in the main timeline though. Just like nobody would say that Ultimate Spider-man has any part of the Amazing or Spectacular Spider-man continuities. And Ultimate Spider-man is considered to be a "side/other" continuity rather than the "mainstream" continuity. And the DC universe considered Earth-Prime to be the "real" universe/earth with all the others branching off of it. I can't remember which universe they have established as the main universe after the Crisis on Infinite Earth's though.
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 12:33 pm
Hitiro wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not "desperately trying to make GT canon", I'm going by what is officially shown to us. It is obvious at the moment what Toriyama follows and what he ignores, but Toriyama isn't the only one who owns the franchise, and he doesn't make all the decisions. The main timeline of Shueisha so far was Dragon Ball (+fillers), Dragon Ball Z (+fillers), Z Movies 1 & 5, Z TV Specials 1 & 2, Jump Super Anime Tour Special, Episode of Bardock, Battle of Gods, and Dragon Ball GT (+TV Special), with Z Movies 9 & 13 and Dragon Ball Heroes: Victory Mission fitting within that continuity as well, and with the rest of the movies & Neko Majin taking place in different dimensions. They also seem to go by another continuity, the manga continuity (which manga-only guides cover), where the Kanzenban manga takes place, and going by Toriyama, Jaco, JSAT, BoG, and FnF take place in that continuity as well, and Super will most likely take place in that continuity. With the release of Dragon Ball XenoVerse, Dragon Ball GT became an alternate timeline, possibly because Dragon Ball Super will replace it.
These are all official, I'm not making them up. As far as official sources go, GT isn't non-canon, it's an alternate timeline like Trunks' timeline. We have a multiverse like in the Marvel & DC multiverses.
If it's a different timeline then it has no place in the main timeline though. Just like nobody would say that Ultimate Spider-man has any part of the Amazing or Spectacular Spider-man continuities. And Ultimate Spider-man is considered to be a "side/other" continuity rather than the "mainstream" continuity. And the DC universe considered Earth-Prime to be the "real" universe/earth with all the others branching off of it. I can't remember which universe they have established as the main universe after the Crisis on Infinite Earth's though.
Bad example with Ultimate Spider-Man, considering what's going on in the Marvel Universe right now.
The main universe after CoIE was "New Earth," which was an amalgamation of the previous Earth-1 and Earth-2.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:38 pm
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Bad example with Ultimate Spider-Man, considering what's going on in the Marvel Universe right now.
The main universe after CoIE was "New Earth," which was an amalgamation of the previous Earth-1 and Earth-2.
Have I missed something in the Ultimate Universe?
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 1:45 pm
Hitiro wrote:Kamiccolo9 wrote:Bad example with Ultimate Spider-Man, considering what's going on in the Marvel Universe right now.
The main universe after CoIE was "New Earth," which was an amalgamation of the previous Earth-1 and Earth-2.
Have I missed something in the Ultimate Universe?
Earth 616 and Earth 1610 have converged into one universe as of Secret Wars #1.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:17 pm
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Earth 616 and Earth 1610 have converged into one universe as of Secret Wars #1.
Really? That's interesting news. I did hear that they were planning to kill off one of the universes. Is this what they are using to remove Earth 616?
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:20 pm
Hitiro wrote:If it's a different timeline then it has no place in the main timeline though. Just like nobody would say that Ultimate Spider-man has any part of the Amazing or Spectacular Spider-man continuities. And Ultimate Spider-man is considered to be a "side/other" continuity rather than the "mainstream" continuity. And the DC universe considered Earth-Prime to be the "real" universe/earth with all the others branching off of it. I can't remember which universe they have established as the main universe after the Crisis on Infinite Earth's though.
That's exactly how it is, apparently. You don't call the Ultimate Universe for example non-canon to the main universe (talking about before they merged).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 2:23 pm
Hitiro wrote:Kamiccolo9 wrote:Earth 616 and Earth 1610 have converged into one universe as of Secret Wars #1.
Really? That's interesting news. I did hear that they were planning to kill off one of the universes. Is this what they are using to remove Earth 616?
They've killed all the universes. It's pretty much the same concept that CoIE did for DC mixed with the original Secret Wars storyline.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:04 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Hitiro wrote:If it's a different timeline then it has no place in the main timeline though. Just like nobody would say that Ultimate Spider-man has any part of the Amazing or Spectacular Spider-man continuities. And Ultimate Spider-man is considered to be a "side/other" continuity rather than the "mainstream" continuity. And the DC universe considered Earth-Prime to be the "real" universe/earth with all the others branching off of it. I can't remember which universe they have established as the main universe after the Crisis on Infinite Earth's though.
That's exactly how it is, apparently. You don't call the Ultimate Universe for example non-canon to the main universe (talking about before they merged).
Unless the universes are being merged then anything happening outside of the main universe in Marvel and DC are not taken seriously. There are things that happen in some DC universes that are ignored altogether even within their own continuity.
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Kamiccolo9
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by Kamiccolo9 » Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:16 pm
Hitiro wrote:DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Hitiro wrote:If it's a different timeline then it has no place in the main timeline though. Just like nobody would say that Ultimate Spider-man has any part of the Amazing or Spectacular Spider-man continuities. And Ultimate Spider-man is considered to be a "side/other" continuity rather than the "mainstream" continuity. And the DC universe considered Earth-Prime to be the "real" universe/earth with all the others branching off of it. I can't remember which universe they have established as the main universe after the Crisis on Infinite Earth's though.
That's exactly how it is, apparently. You don't call the Ultimate Universe for example non-canon to the main universe (talking about before they merged).
Unless the universes are being merged then anything happening outside of the main universe in Marvel and DC are not taken seriously. There are things that happen in some DC universes that are ignored altogether even within their own continuity.
I'm not sure about DC, but that's not the case in Marvel.
Marvel storylines regularly have the different universes interact. You have characters like the Watcher who observes all of these different universes (which is the premise behind
What If?), you have Reed Richards who has meetings with his counterparts from other universes, you have multiversal beings like the Living Tribunal, you have stories where characters from Earth 616 will travel to other universes, or vice-versa, 616 Doctor Doom's teacher was a mutant from a different universe, X-Man comes from the Age of Apocalypse, etc.
From an out of universe standpoint, 616 and 1610 are the "main" universes for marketing purposes, but, in the story itself, they aren't really any different from the various other Earths in the multiverse. Everything that occurs in all of them "happened," and often has impacts outside of their own universe. The Thanos Imperative storyline, for instance, was about a universe that had broken into the 616 universe, and tried to assimilate it.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:15 pm
Hitiro wrote:Unless the universes are being merged then anything happening outside of the main universe in Marvel and DC are not taken seriously. There are things that happen in some DC universes that are ignored altogether even within their own continuity.
That doesn't make it non-canon. Trunks' timeline isn't non-canon.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Wed Jun 10, 2015 5:48 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Hitiro wrote:Unless the universes are being merged then anything happening outside of the main universe in Marvel and DC are not taken seriously. There are things that happen in some DC universes that are ignored altogether even within their own continuity.
That doesn't make it non-canon. Trunks' timeline isn't non-canon.
Trunks' timeline merges with the main timeline. So of course it wouldn't be non-canon. Which is what I said. Anything happening in any other timeline's has been ignored or not taken seriously because it doesn't extend to the main timeline.
