Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Hugo Boss]

I would like to know, since Gohan/Gotenks are so much more powerful than Goku during the Boo events. How did they manage to surpass them in 6 months time from DB Super, let along Vegeta surpassing both of them? He clearly states that he is "second strongest next to Goku" and "#1".

The explanation I'm going with is that Vegeta is referring to the full-blooded Saiyans, and excluding the half breeds.

Vegeta had no qualms in mentioning Gohan's name when they were referecing events from the Cell Games, an ocasion when Goku was also the stronger between the two, while there were Gohan and Cell above them. Why would he ignore Gohan now when Vegeta is a guy who gives a lot of concern to powerlevels?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I see no reason why Vegeta would leave Gohan out of any comparison. It defeats the point of the quote to begin with because then it'd be false altogether.

It's clear that this current direction has given merit to Goku>Gohan, even if it makes no sense.

[Kaboom]

People love to argue Beerus' adjusted his power, well guess what? Androids don't have Chi so they cannot be sensed, debunking this fan illusion.

Someone's power can be estimated by other methods such as movement without sensing their ki, like with Dabra and Bobbidi's other henchmen. It's more like you can't tell how strong they are until they start fighting.

[Kamiccolo9]

People love to argue Beerus' adjusted his power, well guess what? Androids don't have Chi so they cannot be sensed, debunking this fan illusion.

Someone's power can be estimated by other methods such as movement without sensing their ki, like with Dabra and Bobbidi's other henchmen.

Freeza also knew that Goku had been holding himself back during their fight, and Ginyu knew that Goku was hiding a lot more power than he was putting out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I see no reason why Vegeta would leave Gohan out of any comparison. It defeats the point of the quote to begin with because then it'd be false altogether.

Like in his #1 monologue from the manga, Vegeta is again talking about his rivalry with Goku. So, it is possible that he would ignore Gohan & Gotenks in his monologue from Super, and only talk about only the full-blooded Saiyans.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That was in the Boo saga. In Super, Vegeta says Goku has definitely claimed the #1 spot after defeating Kid Boo, so the statement isn't quite the same.

I see no reason why Vegeta would exclude Gohan when saying Goku is the strongest Saiyan, either. A Saiyan is a Saiyan, whether he's a hybrid or not. The statements would hold no value because being the strongest in the universe (when he's only stronger than Vegeta) and being the strongest Saiyan wouldn't mean anything. Not to mention it'd be wrong.

[Captain Space]

That was in the Boo saga. In Super, Vegeta says Goku has definitely claimed the #1 spot after defeating Kid Boo, so the statement isn't quite the same.

I see no reason why Vegeta would exclude Gohan when saying Goku is the strongest Saiyan, either. A Saiyan is a Saiyan, whether he's a hybrid or not. The statements would hold no value because being the strongest in the universe (when he's only stronger than Vegeta) and being the strongest Saiyan wouldn't mean anything. Not to mention it'd be wrong.

I kind of interpreted it as the same as the Buu saga statement given the use of the Engrish "Number One" phrase.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

In your opinion, what does being #1 in the universe mean?

[OWmyDragonBallz]

The #1 being about rivalry wouldn't add up, seeing as how Vegeta takes that a step further in Super and says "he is second strongest next to Goku". That is what #1 meant. Even in the Cell saga, (can't remember who) they say that Gohan is #1. Should we take that as rivalry? Lol.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That was Piccolo who said that during the Cell Games.

But yeah, #1 in the universe and being the strongest Saiyan speaks for itself. Gohan was powerful in the Boo saga, but not to a point where his power would go unsurpassed.

[Captain Space]

In your opinion, what does being #1 in the universe mean?

I guess I forgot "universe".

[Truhan]

The way I see it, Gohan hasn't powered up ever since he was absorbed, and Gotenks never came into existence again (up until that Super episode). It creates a context where that statement is true, but without telling the whole truth, and that is a perfect way to end the debate (i.e. to leave things open). Vegeta has no doubt, but he has always been obsessed about Goku, so far as to not give a damn about Fat Buu's Ki when he first showed up. Goku was written with more global awareness, which is why he inherited the Genki-dama, and is capable of knowing a bad plan when he sees one. However, he had to concede, if not risk the whole universe with uncertainty by placing his faith on people, for the sake of a symbolic ending.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That was in the Boo saga. In Super, Vegeta says Goku has definitely claimed the #1 spot after defeating Kid Boo, so the statement isn't quite the same.

I see no reason why Vegeta would exclude Gohan when saying Goku is the strongest Saiyan, either. A Saiyan is a Saiyan, whether he's a hybrid or not. The statements would hold no value because being the strongest in the universe (when he's only stronger than Vegeta) and being the strongest Saiyan wouldn't mean anything. Not to mention it'd be wrong.

He doesn't say that Goku is the strongest in the universe (he says it only in crappy subs), he is saying that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, that Goku is #1, and Vegeta is #2. Vegeta says that he will surpass not only Goku, but every living being in the universe, and that he will become the supreme #1. If he considers Goku the #1 in the universe, why would he only say that he is the strongest Saiyan? Vegeta also doesn't know anyone else in the universe that is stronger than Goku or Gohan. Yes, a Saiyan is a Saiyan, but Gohan & Gotenks aren't just Saiyans, they are Earthlings as well.

[Truhan]

Please... That's pedantry. Might as well say that Vegeta didn't consider Gohan and Gotenks in his plan because they aren't pure earthlings.

[supercat]

Beerus doesn't need to sense Android 18's ki to figure out how powerful she is. Utilizing his superior battle sense and deep understanding of combat, he could dictate just how much effort he needs to exert after seeing a quick movement or two. Her rushing in and charging at him with a quick swipe was enough for him to determine the level of power he needed to quickly subdue her without killing her.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Please... That's pedantry. Might as well say that Vegeta didn't consider Gohan and Gotenks in his plan because they aren't pure earthlings.

Vegeta, when saying that the Earthlings should take responsibility & save their asses with their own power for once, was talking about the Earthlings that don't belong to the Dragon Team. He isn't talking about Gohan, Piccolo, Bulma, etc.

[singsing]

That was in the Boo saga. In Super, Vegeta says Goku has definitely claimed the #1 spot after defeating Kid Boo, so the statement isn't quite the same.

I see no reason why Vegeta would exclude Gohan when saying Goku is the strongest Saiyan, either. A Saiyan is a Saiyan, whether he's a hybrid or not. The statements would hold no value because being the strongest in the universe (when he's only stronger than Vegeta) and being the strongest Saiyan wouldn't mean anything. Not to mention it'd be wrong.

Not really. Is a liger a tiger? Is a liger a lion? If you talk about tigers, I'm almost certain you would not be including ligers.

[Truhan]

Vegeta, when saying that the Earthlings should take responsibility & save their asses with their own power for once, was talking about the Earthlings that don't belong to the Dragon Team. He isn't talking about Gohan, Piccolo, Bulma, etc.

Thanks for pointing that out, but the funny thing is that the argument would work in your favour, because Vegeta hadn't considered Gohan and Gotenks (before being told by Goku). I was just trying to show that in doing so, it would be pedantic.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That was in the Boo saga. In Super, Vegeta says Goku has definitely claimed the #1 spot after defeating Kid Boo, so the statement isn't quite the same.

I see no reason why Vegeta would exclude Gohan when saying Goku is the strongest Saiyan, either. A Saiyan is a Saiyan, whether he's a hybrid or not. The statements would hold no value because being the strongest in the universe (when he's only stronger than Vegeta) and being the strongest Saiyan wouldn't mean anything. Not to mention it'd be wrong.

He doesn't say that Goku is the strongest in the universe (he says it only in crappy subs), he is saying that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, that Goku is #1, and Vegeta is #2. Vegeta says that he will surpass not only Goku, but every living being in the universe, and that he will become the supreme #1. If he considers Goku the #1 in the universe, why would he only say that he is the strongest Saiyan? Vegeta also doesn't know anyone else in the universe that is stronger than Goku or Gohan. Yes, a Saiyan is a Saiyan, but Gohan & Gotenks aren't just Saiyans, they are Earthlings as well.

If he says Goku is #1 in the universe, and claimed that spot after defeating Boo, then he's saying he's the strongest in the universe. What else does being #1 in the universe mean? The most skilled fighter? Cool. The strongest Saiyan part clears that up, then. Or we could just go along with what being #1 signified throughout the series and leave it at that.

Being the strongest SaIyan loses all of its significance if it's just about Goku being stronger than Vegeta. All he'd need to say is Goku was simply stronger than himself, not regard him as the strongest Saiyan when he's clearly not. Being the strongest Saiyan should mean exactly what it says. I dunno why people are going out of their way to make both of these statements mean something else entirely than what they say.

Not really. Is a liger a tiger? Is a liger a lion? If you talk about tigers, I'm almost certain you would not be including ligers.

Gohan's a Saiyan, but let's just assume he's disregarded because he's a hybrid. Gohan's apart of the universe where Goku is considered #1, right? Is he not included there, too?

If not, why?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If he says Goku is #1 in the universe, and claimed that spot after defeating Boo, then he's saying he's the strongest in the universe. What else does being #1 in the universe mean? The most skilled fighter? Cool. The strongest Saiyan part clears that up, then. Or we could just go along with what being #1 signified throughout the series and leave it at that.

Except Vegeta never said that Goku is #1 in the universe. He only says that Goku is #1, and the strongest Saiyan, and then Vegeta says that he is #2, and that he won't only become stronger than Goku, but stronger than everyone in the universe. If he considers Goku the strongest in the universe, why would he say that he surpass every being in the universe on top of surpassing Goku? Sounds like Goku isn't the strongest in the universe.