Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kamiccolo9]

So, parroting what Hitiro said: the fact that Gohan's genki made up only the majority of the Genki Dama, and it wasn't enough to kill Pure Buu, suggests that Gohan is around three times his strength. You can say that donating your genki means you're only donating a very small portion of your ki, but then you'd have to wonder why the Earthlings' donation (when the average PL is 5 and the population is at best around 6 billion) did anything. The story clearly implies that the combined energy of the Earthlings is relevant to Gohan... so unless you think Pure Buu and Goku are FAR below 30 billion...

I don't think that it's ever said that the average power level is 5. That's just the BP of an overweight, middle-aged farmer.

[RandomGuy96]

But we know it should at least be far below 10. Trunks also suppresses himself to 5 when he first shows up, making me think Toriyama intended 5 to be standard human level.

I also don't think a fat farmer and Mr. Satan should have a different power level, just like I don't think that a bear should have a higher power level than Mr. Satan. Physical strength and ki strength are completely different. If Nappa and Bulma for some reason both had a power level of 5, I'd still expect Nappa to be stronger for obvious reasons. Or hell, even if Nappa was 4 and Bulma was 5.

[Kamiccolo9]

But we know it should at least be far below 10. Trunks also suppresses himself to 5 when he first shows up, making me think Toriyama intended 5 to be standard human level.

Probably. I'd say anywhere from 3 to 7 could be considered the "normal" human level. But I'd also think that the percentages of ki aspects would be different on a person to person basis as well. Say, a soldier and a runner would both have a level of 6, but the soldier would have a higher percentage of yuuki, while the runner would have more genki. So I don't think that set formulas for the Genki Dama really work, since it should be extremely rare for multiple people to have the exact same amount of vitality.

[RandomGuy96]

Probably. I'd say anywhere from 3 to 7 could be considered the "normal" human level. But I'd also think that the percentages of ki aspects would be different on a person to person basis as well. Say, a soldier and a runner would both have a level of 6, but the soldier would have a higher percentage of yuuki, while the runner would have more genki. So I don't think that set formulas for the Genki Dama really work, since it should be extremely rare for multiple people to have the exact same amount of vitality.

But the general point still stands: averaged out, your regular joe will have a power level of 5. Assuming a population of about six billion (seems reasonable, as that was the population of the world at the time this was written and Dragon Ball Earth never looked ultra-heavily populated), you'd get the entire human population having a combined power level of 30 billion. Not getting into how genki works, this is just the combined power of the human species. This power level is seen as relevant to Ultimate Gohan's power when forming a Buu-killing attack.

And more importantly, Gohan's genki was only about as strong as Pure Buu himself. You can say that genki is just really small compared to overall ki, but then you'd have to explain why the Earthlings ki was even worth anything, since that power level of 30 billion, by Ozaru's list, would only be equal to 3 billion, which would basically make no difference to Gohan's genki of 30 billion (he has Gohan at 300 billion and Pure Buu at 30 billion). Remember, the contribution of the Earthlings' ki to Gohan's ki took the Spirit Bomb from "Probably can't destroy Pure Buu" to "definitely can completely obliterate Pure Buu", implying a large increase. I think Pure Buu = 33% Gohan was implied here.

This is how it works out for me, basically:

Pure Buu- 36,000,000,000

Gohan- 100,000,000,000

Earthlings- 30,000,000,000

Genki Dama-
-+Gohan's genki- 33,000,000,000
-+Other's genki- 36,500,000,000
-+Earthlings' genki- 46,500,000,000

The "others" are basically Kibitoshin, Trunks, Goten, and Piccolo. The Nameks, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Chiaotzu, and ogres are so weak that their genki wouldn't really be worth listing here.

[Kamiccolo9]

Probably. I'd say anywhere from 3 to 7 could be considered the "normal" human level. But I'd also think that the percentages of ki aspects would be different on a person to person basis as well. Say, a soldier and a runner would both have a level of 6, but the soldier would have a higher percentage of yuuki, while the runner would have more genki. So I don't think that set formulas for the Genki Dama really work, since it should be extremely rare for multiple people to have the exact same amount of vitality.

But the general point still stands: averaged out, your regular joe will have a power level of 5. Assuming a population of about six billion, you'd get the entire human population having a combined power level of 30 billion. Not getting into how genki works, this is just the combined power of the human species. This power level is seen as relevant to Ultimate Gohan's power when forming a Buu-killing attack.

And more importantly, Gohan's genki was only about as strong as Pure Buu himself. You can say that genki is just really small compared to overall ki, but then you'd have to explain why the Earthlings ki was even worth anything, since that power level of 30 billion, by Ozaru's list, would only be equal to 3 billion, which is basically no difference. I think Pure Buu = 33% Gohan was implied here.

Maybe Genki has a reinforcing effect? The more that is gathered, the more potent it becomes, or something like that. Seeing as ki is essentially metaphysical anyway, I can see how that would work. It'd also help explain how genki gathered from plants and rocks would be enough to stop Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc.

[RandomGuy96]

Maybe Genki has a reinforcing effect? The more that is gathered, the more potent it becomes, or something like that. Seeing as ki is essentially metaphysical anyway, I can see how that would work. It'd also help explain how genki gathered from plants and rocks would be enough to stop Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc.

Well that's a simple one: Vegeta was just not that strong. It would only take the genki of a small city to take him down, since he was only 18,000. Even if a plant or rock has a power level of less than 1, there's still far more than 18,000 plants and rocks...

I'm not sure about that. Seems a bit overcomplicated for Toriyama. What was basically simply stated was that, whatever percentage of his power that it was, Gohan's genki probably isn't enough to wipe out Pure Buu, but with the addition of the Earthlings' genki, it is, suggesting that Gohan isn't multi-folds above Pure Buu. This would go hand in hand with the Daizenshuu entry about Fat Buu and my theory about Saiyan fusions having smaller multipliers, which was kind of implied in the SS Gotenks vs Super Buu fight.

[Kamiccolo9]

Maybe Genki has a reinforcing effect? The more that is gathered, the more potent it becomes, or something like that. Seeing as ki is essentially metaphysical anyway, I can see how that would work. It'd also help explain how genki gathered from plants and rocks would be enough to stop Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc.

Well that's a simple one: Vegeta was just not that strong. It would only take the genki of a small city to take him down, and since he was only 18,000. Even if a plant or rock has a power level of less than 1, there's still far more than 18,000 plants and rocks...

I'm not sure about that. Seems a bit overcomplicated for Toriyama. What was basically simply stated was that, whatever percentage of his power that it was, Gohan's genki probably isn't enough to wipe out Pure Buu, but with the addition of the Earthlings' genki, it is. This would go hand in hand with the Daizenshuu entry about Fat Buu and my theory about Saiyan fusions having smaller multipliers, which was kind of implied in the SS Gotenks vs Super Buu fight.

Fair enough. I'm just not really seeing it as merely additive though, especially since, from what I've seen, the Dragon Ball Earth isn't that heavily populated; aren't there only 5 cities on the whole planet? Sure, there would be various smaller settlements, but I doubt the population is as big as the one in real life. (I don't suppose you know if there is any legitimate info on this? That might make a good topic for in-universe.)

[RandomGuy96]

Well, I know there's more than five: North, South, West, East, Central, and Satan. There's also that city that Gero and 19 destroyed, and that other one King Piccolo destroyed. I don't know if there are more, but I don't see why there wouldn't be; the cities denoted with a direction may just be the really, REALLY big ones.

I'm just saying that, even though we don't know the population of Dragon Ball Earth, the population of Real Life Earth may have been in Toriyama's head when thinking up this sequence. On the other hand, maybe not. I just can't see Gohan being ten times stronger than Pure Buu and Goku with the "Gohan's genki isn't enough without the Earthlings" thing taken into account.

[dbzfan7]

I have no problem with the whole Genki thing. We have no idea how it works. It's pretty much up to the interpretation. I don't believe in 33% of ki or else SSJ3 Gotenks should have been formed to get a shit ton more than 33% of Goten and Trunks.

[RandomGuy96]

I have no problem with the whole Genki thing. We have no idea how it works. It's pretty much up to the interpretation. I don't believe in 33% of ki or else SSJ3 Gotenks should have been formed to get a shit ton more than 33% of Goten and Trunks.

I thought that they couldn't form because you're not at full power when coming from the dead, and you need to be at full to fuse?

And if not, that's PIS no matter how you slice it, since no matter what, Gotenks should have more genki than Goten and Trunks.

Forgetting everything else, Gohan's genki wasn't enough to kill Pure Buu, while the combined genki of him and the humans was. I don't think that's really compatible with him being ten times stronger than Pure Buu, or ten times stronger than the combined power of the human race.

[dbzfan7]

I have no problem with the whole Genki thing. We have no idea how it works. It's pretty much up to the interpretation. I don't believe in 33% of ki or else SSJ3 Gotenks should have been formed to get a shit ton more than 33% of Goten and Trunks.

I thought that they couldn't form because you're not at full power when coming from the dead, and you need to be at full to fuse?

And if not, that's PIS no matter how you slice it, since no matter what, Gotenks should have more genki than Goten and Trunks.

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P5.3
Context: after Vegeta says he’ll hold off Boo again, so Goku can prepare the Genki-Dama
Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

I used to think so to because of Vegeta, but the line is ambiguous. I think Vegeta wasn't at full power when revivde because he already used it all up in the previous fight. He never fully recovered from the previous fight either.

[RandomGuy96]

Maybe, but it seems awfully convenient that he'd say "your ki isn't full" right after saying "you've just been revived". I find it hard to believe the two aren't connected.

[dbzfan7]

Maybe, but it seems awfully convenient that he'd say "your ki isn't full" right after saying "you've just been revived". I find it hard to believe the two aren't connected.

True. But I highly doubt Vegeta got any power back at all without any healing or Senzu beans.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Vegeta has a body in the afterlife, he isn't just a spirit. Goku was revived in the Saiyan Arc while healthy and he took off at full power to try and get back along the Serpent Road and save his friends and family as quickly as possible. So just like Goku, the only thing that should change upon his revival is the halo above his head. His body and power should remain in the same condition as before the wish was granted; ass kicked.

[RandomGuy96]

In that case, it probably hadn't been an hour since they last fused.

[Rocketman]

What if everybody, no matter how strong, has the same amount of genki?

[TheMightyOzaru]

I like to think that is the case most of the time. If Genki was like 33% of the users Ki, the Genki Dama would have been waaaaaaaay too powerful for Buu because of Gohan.

[dbzfan7]

Well Goku does say the Genki-Dama is already huge from just Gohan and the other's which makes me think they have more Genki than other people. But the size of the ball pales in comparison to the Freeza saga Genki-Dama. I'm pretty sure 33% of Gohan and the super warriors of earth would be more than the Freeza Genki-Dama if it was just 33% of their ki.

[RandomGuy96]

What if everybody, no matter how strong, has the same amount of genki?

That's stated to be false, as Gohan's genki alone comprises the majority of the Genki Dama, while it took all six billion Earthlings to make the tie breaker.

Well Goku does say the Genki-Dama is already huge from just Gohan and the other's which makes me think they have more Genki than other people. But the size of the ball pales in comparison to the Freeza saga Genki-Dama. I'm pretty sure 33% of Gohan and the super warriors of earth would be more than the Freeza Genki-Dama if it was just 33% of their ki.

I'm sure he's judging on size of ki, not physical size, since he goes on to say that "even this probably isnt enough to obliterate Buu".

like to think that is the case most of the time. If Genki was like 33% of the users Ki, the Genki Dama would have been waaaaaaaay too powerful for Buu because of Gohan.

That's the thing: I'm saying Gohan isn't that much stronger than Buu. Just a few times stronger, not ten times stronger. Otherwise, the Earthlings' ki wouldn't be enough to take the Genki Dama from "probably can't kill Buu" to "definitely can completely obliterate Buu". This is another one of those hints, along with SS Gotenks hurting Buu with physical atacks, and the Daizenshuu line about Fat Buu compared to Buff Buu.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Wait, I totally forgot to take into account that you don't start out with full power after you've been revived:

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P5.3
Context: after Vegeta says he’ll hold off Boo again, so Goku can prepare the Genki-Dama
Goku: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”

Gohan also didn't send all of his Genki, otherwise he'd die. If I incorporate this logic, the whole 33, 33 and 33 would make sense.