Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I just don't get why is this even a debate. Toriyama rewrote/wrote BoG and that line exist.

Freeza > Base Goku (And by extension Vegeta) during BoG is fact.

[buutenks]

I just don't get why is this even a debate. Toriyama rewrote/wrote BoG and that line exist.

Freeza > Base Goku (And by extension Vegeta) during BoG is fact.

Well some people dont take it as fact because they assume the goku beerus was sensing was suppressed.

[LowRyder2005]

@Zombie: Sure, the point here is that we are left with the impression that Gohan can roflstomp his Fourth Form in base in Movie 12 just as we are left with the impression that it's doubtful Goku can beat Freeza in base according to Beerus in Super-related material.

You already have contradicting sources, and you can raise objections about the univocal validity of both, that's why "Base vs. Freeza" is still an open debate.

It was the term "debunked" that was out of place. You can't have "debunked" something if you can still properly debate about that something.

Well not really contradicting.

Since super(or bog movie, which ever u prefer) is cannon, while that movie isnt.

Canon.
And we are going in circles:

... would you seriously say we are supposed to take that Gohan and that Freeza as vastly different, power-wise, than those of the main anime continuity (which, again, is the universe in which the Dragon Ball Super anime is supposed to take place)?

It's not a matter of canon or not, it's a matter of respecting other opinions and being open-minded. Beerus' words are not conclusive (see objections raised above), neither is Gohan's feat at least completely. To me or another person, though, this or Vegeta words, or Dabra's, may or may not hold more weight than Beerus'.

It's about what you think of those words and what makes most sense in your head. They are opinions and they're subjective.

[ZombieVito]

I just don't get why is this even a debate. Toriyama rewrote/wrote BoG and that line exist.

Freeza > Base Goku (And by extension Vegeta) during BoG is fact.

Well some people dont take it as fact because they assume the goku beerus was sensing was suppressed.

Then why did Goku and Kaio both agreed?

The statement was never contradicted.

[LowRyder2005]

I just don't get why is this even a debate. Toriyama rewrote/wrote BoG and that line exist.

Freeza > Base Goku (And by extension Vegeta) during BoG is fact.

Are we going through this again?
Can you prove Goku was at his 100% and not some arbitrary percentage like you were saying for Freeza up until a moment ago?
What about Vegeta saying he can beat Piccolo no prob without going Super Saiyan? Wasn't it written by Toriyama too?
What about Dabra's statement?

Good God, how can't you see you are cherry-picking what suits your taste is beyond me.

It's. Not. A. Fact.

If a guide says it -> it's a fact.
If we see Namek's Freeza manhandling Base Goku, with Goku saying something like -> "Hey, looks I can't beat you without going Super Saiyan" -> it becomes a fact, or at least something really close to a fact.
If Beerus, who knows nothing about Goku's power, abilities or forms, DOUBTS he can beat Freeza when Goku may or may not be suppressing his power -> it's not a fact. It's a hint. A suggestion. Something which may or may not be true and it's up to the reader's intepretation.

Then why did Goku and Kaio both agreed?

The statement was never contradicted.

Beerus says he doubts he can beat Freeza like that.
If like that means "as you are now" and "as you are now" means "suppressed", why would Kaio disagree that a suppressed Goku can't beat Freeza?

[buutenks]

@Zombie: Sure, the point here is that we are left with the impression that Gohan can roflstomp his Fourth Form in base in Movie 12 just as we are left with the impression that it's doubtful Goku can beat Freeza in base according to Beerus in Super-related material.

You already have contradicting sources, and you can raise objections about the univocal validity of both, that's why "Base vs. Freeza" is still an open debate.

It was the term "debunked" that was out of place. You can't have "debunked" something if you can still properly debate about that something.

Well not really contradicting.

Since super(or bog movie, which ever u prefer) is cannon, while that movie isnt.

Canon.
And we are going in circles:

... would you seriously say we are supposed to take that Gohan and that Freeza as vastly different, power-wise, than those of the main anime continuity (which, again, is the universe in which the Dragon Ball Super anime is supposed to take place)?

It's not a matter of canon or not, it's a matter of respecting other opinions and being open-minded. Beerus' words are not conclusive (see objections raised above), neither is Gohan's feat at least completely. To me or another person, though, this or Vegeta words, or Dabra's, may or may not hold more weight than Beerus'.

It's about what you think of those words and what makes most sense in your head. They are opinions and they're subjective.

Going by that logic, buutenks is only slightly stronger than ssj3 goku. Since in the anime goku fought him and held his own pretty well.

My point is, when it comes to the primary source, that is above filler material(like the fusion movie).

[ZombieVito]

I'll just quote myself because discussing stated facts is just a waste of time.

If Ginyu can make a near perfect estimate of Goku's power then I doubt the million years old god of destruction can't do the same.

[dbgtFO]

Going by that logic, buutenks is only slightly stronger than ssj3 goku. Since in the anime goku fought him and held his own pretty well.

Yes it's Toei and their video-game logic. The plot treats Gotenks-Buu as a guy Goku stands absolutely zero chance against, but Toei wanted a filler fight and since the plot requires Goku to survive, he does so, making some people think there's not a big gap in power.
I view it the same with Piccolo, stands absolutely no chance, but the writers want him to give a good showing regardless and so it looks like Piccolo can actually face Frost without getting utterly stomped, like he should be, because we are basing it on long held views about how battle powers stack up against each other and how little gap is needed to stomp another.
I find it all a bit meh and just take away that Piccolo is no match for Frost, and that's that. His power compared to base Saiyans does not come into this.

[buutenks]

Going by that logic, buutenks is only slightly stronger than ssj3 goku. Since in the anime goku fought him and held his own pretty well.

Yes it's Toei and their video-game logic. The plot treats Gotenks-Buu as a guy Goku stands absolutely zero chance against, but Toei wanted a filler fight and since the plot requires Goku to survive, he does so, making some people think there's not a big gap in power.
I view it the same with Piccolo, stands absolutely no chance, but the writers want him to give a good showing regardless and so it looks like Piccolo can actually face Frost without getting utterly stomped, like he should be, because we are basing it on long held views about how battle powers stack up against each other and how little gap is needed to stomp another.
I find it all a bit meh and just take away that Piccolo is no match for Frost, and that's that. His power compared to base Saiyans does not come into this.

Well might be, however the difference is buutenks vs goku is a fillar fight, that basically never really happened, while piccolo vs frost actually did happen. Plus piccolo trained with gohan for a couple of months IIRC, so he definitely got a power up.

So perhaps, we are simply over estimating frost.

[LowRyder2005]

Going by that logic, buutenks is only slightly stronger than ssj3 goku. Since in the anime goku fought him and held his own pretty well.

My point is, when it comes to the primary source, that is above filler material(like the fusion movie).

Mind that - but, thankfully, someone else was remarkably quick to point that out - that you are arguing with TOEI's logic, not mine, which rests on "Kid Buu is the strongest Buu Goku has seen and Goku can go toe to toe with him".

And no, the Buutenks vs. Goku happened in fact in the anime. The Kid Buu uber alles quotes too.
And Dragon Ball Super follows the very same anime, not striclty speaking the manga continuity. There's Gregory, there's Ginyu as a frog on Earth and so on.

[LowRyder2005]

I'll just quote myself because discussing stated facts is just a waste of time.

If Ginyu can make a near perfect estimate of Goku's power then I doubt the million years old god of destruction can't do the same.

I find it a very weak argument. You need not to go further behind than a single page: Beerus already thinks Super Saiyan Goku can't be much stronger than that when he has Super Saiyan 2 at 3 at his disposal.
If Goku is suppressing himself or not showing his true power Beerus hasn't shown any ability to predict the tue extent of Goku's power, if anything he showed he lacked that particular skill.

[buutenks]

Well w/e i am bored of this debate.

So back to the how strong is piccolo and frost.

id say piccolo and in turn frost jumped to being stronger than ssj3 goku(bog).

[ZombieVito]

Well w/e i am bored of this debate.

So back to the how strong is piccolo and frost.

id say piccolo and in turn frost jumped to being stronger than ssj3 goku(bog).

Piccolo is too high. Goku was going to bring Gohan and Boo to the tournament. He needs to still be under Boo.

[namekiansaiyan]

Well w/e i am bored of this debate.

So back to the how strong is piccolo and frost.

id say piccolo and in turn frost jumped to being stronger than ssj3 goku(bog).

Piccolo is too high. Goku was going to bring Gohan and Boo to the tournament. He needs to still be under Boo.

He was only going to bring Gohan because Gohan asked. Piccolo was chosen before him.

[ZombieVito]

Well w/e i am bored of this debate.

So back to the how strong is piccolo and frost.

id say piccolo and in turn frost jumped to being stronger than ssj3 goku(bog).

Piccolo is too high. Goku was going to bring Gohan and Boo to the tournament. He needs to still be under Boo.

He was only going to bring Gohan because Gohan asked. Piccolo was chosen before him.

Goku didn't ask Gohan because he knows he doesn't like fighting.

[buutenks]

Well w/e i am bored of this debate.

So back to the how strong is piccolo and frost.

id say piccolo and in turn frost jumped to being stronger than ssj3 goku(bog).

Piccolo is too high. Goku was going to bring Gohan and Boo to the tournament. He needs to still be under Boo.

Hmm, but goku had no idea piccolo was training with gohan.

Tho granted goku did sense piccolo's ki while he was fighting gohan.

Ok so final form frost=ssj3 goku(bog)
Weakened like ssj2 and piccolo is at say SPC level?

Hmm i simply assume since he trained with gohan for months and gohan was in the buu saga above ssj3 tier, gohan would have gotten most of that power back so in turn piccolo would have jumped to ssj3 tier.

And in turn, final form frost would be around buuhan's level, while weakened he drops to ssj3 tier.

[ZombieVito]

I don't even have Piccolo surpassing Perfect Cell (while he fought Goku).

We need to know what the deal is with Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan forms.

[buutenks]

I don't even have Piccolo surpassing Perfect Cell (while he fought Goku).

We need to know what the deal is with Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan forms.

That is highly unlikely.

i mean piccolo was able to actually keep up with frost, who in a prior form was keeping up fine with base goku, who is above final form freeza's level who is stronger than first form freeza who easily stomped ss gohan, who at lowest is FP perfect cell level and highest ssj3 tier(starting to somehow doubt the ssj3 tier thing tho).

So piccolo must have jumped to ssj2.5 or ssj3 tier.

Piccolo trained for months, i somehow doubt it he gained just a small power boost.

[ZombieVito]

I'm using the alternate god power theory.

I have weakened Frost barely over SSJ Gohan at the Cell games.

[Noah]

I'm using the alternate god power theory.

I have weakened Frost barely over SSJ Gohan at the Cell games.

And that kinda makes sense, Frost being God-tier is ludicrous at best