The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Green]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

All 12 Hakaishin or just the ones of the universes participating in the tournament? Either way we have at best:

UI Goku
SSBE Vegeta
Jiren
Toppo
Kefla

Those are the relevant ones which can pose a threat to any Hakaishin level being, Kefla less so but she can provide useful support. Goku and Jiren can take on 3 of them each (4 is too much imo), leaving out 6 Hakaishin in the first scenario and 2 otherwise.

Regarding the former, Mortals Team isn't winning this in the slightest.
Vegeta and Toppo can fight two Hakaishin and win against them when Kefla joins the fray, not to mention useful fighters like 17 with his barriers and Aniraza, who can be sacrificed. Other fighters are way too weak, they may annoy the gods but a wave of Hakai energy makes short work of them. In the end, S2 is manageable if UI is used and Jiren breaks his limits, it all depends on that.

[Zamasu55]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

First off, I think that Quitela, Beerus and Vermouth are the strongest Hakaishins, by a small margine of course.

They slaughter almost everyone with a finger.
The ones who would not immediately fall are Jiren, Goku, Vegeta, 17 (sounds weird, but he still hurt a FP Jiren), Toppo, Dyspo, Aniraza, Hit and Kefla. The rest is done fore (yeah, even Golden Freeza and Ultimate Gohan).

In order to survive, Goku would need to go UI. Even the unmastered state would do (he can still dodge everything). MUI would probably beat at least two Destoyers before Goku loses its power.
SsjBE Vegeta managed to beat a God of Destruction, which was stated to be on par with all the others. He too can eliminate someone.
17 and Dyspo would probably not last long.
Toppo, by using his Hakaishin state, can go toe-to-toe with pretty much every Hakaishin.
Aniraza is much weaker than them but he'd still be a diffult foe to put down.
Hit is outclassed sadly.
Ssj2 Kefla might resist a beat, but then loses.

Jiren is on another level. He basically has MUI Goku's power, but unlike him he has no stamina problems or whatever that was.

In the end, considering that the Hakaishins cannot destroy the mortals, I'd say that the fight would be interesting. Gods probably win in the end tho. But the mortals could do it.

[dragon boss z]

He was just lying about the fact that he went all out to beat Fat Buu. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was lying about having as much or more confidence in Gotenks than he does himself. To illustrate my viewpoint let me show in numbers what I mean:
[spoiler]Fat Buu: 0.9
SSJ3 GOku: 1
SSJ Gotenks: 1
SSJ3 Gotenks: 8
Super Buu: 7
Ultimate Gohan:12
That's where I see things during this time.[/spoiler]

Your scale is ok, the only thing I would say doesn't agree with what is shown is ssj3 Goku only being slightly above fat Buu, as it seemed kid Buu was supposed to be above Fat Buu.

...and completely dominated them. They didn't get hit a single time as SSJs and pushed back the trio prior to the final beam struggle.

Ya, but ssj Goku also completely defeated Frost. Frost is above the trio de danger, but he is probably closer to them than he is to full power ssj Goku.

From what we can tell, Goku found it necessary to use SSJ against Freeza Frost. And since Goku's SSJ is far superior to SSG from BoG at this point, Frost dwarfs anything from the Buu saga.(To be clear, I don't believe Frost is SSG BoG level but he appears to be stronger than Base Goku) Which doesn't seem very far-fetched since Frost doesn't seem that much stronger than Freeza was when he showed up on Earth.

Goku seemed like he went ssj to make Frost reveal his final form. And I'm pretty sure RoF Frieza is supposed to be stronger than Frost.

And I was asking why you consider the gap to be that small. Either way, your numbers still fit Jiren being several hundred to a thousand times stronger than SSJ Goku and yet he got overpowered by him at the end.

Because I think Goku's ssj3 is almost as strong as his SSG form post absorption. this is backed up when Kale and Caulifla were amazed at his ssj3 form which he only showed for an instant, but then later went SSG to fight hem. It seemed like they were being treated as near the same level. Goku also went from ssj, to ssj2, to SSG when fighting Jiren skipping ssj3, which would make sense if SSG was around the same level as ssj3 but better control and slightly stronger.

Didn't you already agree he is stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto?

I said plot wise that makes the most sense, but it was never 100% confirmed.

Goku said that he didn't even know that level of power could even exist and he said that fusion wouldn't work(aka SSJ3 Vegetto wouldn't be enough) against King Kai's planet Beerus who is far inferior to the Beerus that fought evenly with SSG Goku. It is crystal clear that SSJ3 Vegetto is inferior to SSG Goku.

He said he didn't think even fusion would be enough, and SSG wasn't enough either. Also the original intention was for SSG to be near Beerus' full power and as the arcs went on they kept pushing Beerus' further and further to keep him ahead of Goku, so if SSG was originally supposed to be 60% of Beerus, of course it was stronger than ssj3 Vegito, but now that it has to be less than 1% of Beerus, it no longer matters.

Then I have no idea what you are arguing then. It appeared to me you were saying it was a temporary boost and/or it was retconned.

No, I said the full boost was retconned or was temporary. I think post god form he definitely went multiple levels up. Before he his base was stated to be less than namek Frieza, after it would at least be Cell to Buu tier, and after Whis training it was solidly above ssj3 Gotenks.

I'd have to find it but yeah the promotional material from the movie described their base forms as being called "Saiyan Beyond God" and it described how it worked.

I've looked for it and haven't seen it, and the scans someone showed me before actually didn't even prove what they said. So I would need to see the actual scan as proof. The best I've seen is "it is said a saiyan can gain control of god like power with changing form" but that just means they are fighting at a god level not actually equal to SSG and I've never seen anything that hinted it was actually beyond SSG.

Then what was the entire exposition that Whis was describing about? How he was winning not because of power but because of his experience/skill. Then Caulifla acclimates to his fighting style and Goku is forced to transform.

Ya I know, Whis said Goku was winning due to skill not strength. What part of that confirms his power wasn't in the same tier? Base Goku could have been a 1 and ssj2 Caulifla could have been a 1.5 and Whis' statement would still make complete sense. If Caulifla was 100x stronger Goku's arm would shatter, it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he was strong enough to stop Caulifla's punch with his fist.

Not to mention she should be so much faster Goku's skill shouldn't even matter.
It definitely seems they weren't that far apart in power and speed, but Caulifla did have the edge.

I agree, she had the edge, but not by 100x.

Well maybe it should be the case but it isn't. Based on what Whis was saying and based on the fact that they fought evenly as SSJ2s or in any paticular form, then tired Goku=Caulifla.

Or like I mentioned before a ki controlled master base could lower the multipliers, or the real explanation which is that it's decided by plot and the writers don't care about multipliers or consistency.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

Does Toppo count as a Hakaishin or a ToP participant?

He counts as a participant, and all 12 of them fight.

[dragon boss z]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

The gods win pretty easily. UI Goku and Jiren are the only ones arguably above GoD level, Vegeta, Toppo, and Kefla might put up a bit of a fight but they all lose to any GoD in a 1v1 as of now. Frieza, 17, Hit, Dyspo, Gohan, and Aniraza are probably the only others who can maybe do something. Every other tournament member would get solod by one GoD.

[Zamasu55]

I asked this before, but I want to see if your opinions have changed after the end of DBS: All of the Hakaishin vs. All of the participants in the Tournament of Power

The gods win pretty easily. UI Goku and Jiren are the only ones arguably above GoD level, Vegeta, Toppo, and Kefla might put up a bit of a fight but they all lose to any GoD in a 1v1 as of now. Frieza, 17, Hit, Dyspo, Gohan, and Aniraza are probably the only others who can maybe do something. Every other tournament member would get solod by one GoD.

How can Toppo lose if Vermouth straight up said he was no different than the other Gods? And Vegeta beat him. They both take out at least one Hakaishin each.

[Hellspawn28]

Kaioken SSj4 Goku vs. Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta

Could Goku win if he had use the Kaioken against Baby?

[PFM18]

Your scale is ok, the only thing I would say doesn't agree with what is shown is ssj3 Goku only being slightly above fat Buu, as it seemed kid Buu was supposed to be above Fat Buu.

Yeah I messed up on that part my bad. I would put Fat Buu at 0.75 and Kid Buu at 0.9

But if you agree with that scale, then would you not agree that SSJ3 Gotenks=8x SSJ3 Goku? and so:

Base Goku(ToP)>tired Base Goku(ToP)~Base Caulifla>>Goku(Planet Potafu)>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu

Ya, but ssj Goku also completely defeated Frost. Frost is above the trio de danger, but he is probably closer to them than he is to full power ssj Goku.

I mean yeah sure for the most part that appears to be true. Not sure that I see your point though to be honest.

Goku seemed like he went ssj to make Frost reveal his final form. And I'm pretty sure RoF Frieza is supposed to be stronger than Frost.

Goku found it necessary to use SSJ against Final Form Frost. He didn't find it necessary to use it against Final Form Freeza. Therefore, Frost is stronger in his final form than final form Freeza from RoF. It's really that simple.

I said plot wise that makes the most sense, but it was never 100% confirmed.

Yes. No explicit statements but it was very heavily implied.

He said he didn't think even fusion would be enough, and SSG wasn't enough either. Also the original intention was for SSG to be near Beerus' full power and as the arcs went on they kept pushing Beerus' further and further to keep him ahead of Goku, so if SSG was originally supposed to be 60% of Beerus, of course it was stronger than ssj3 Vegito, but now that it has to be less than 1% of Beerus, it no longer matters.

SSG Goku was stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto. Just because Beerus's power was actually on another level from SSG doesn't mean that you just retroactively change where SSG stands compared to SSJ3 Vegetto.

No, I said the full boost was retconned or was temporary. I think post god form he definitely went multiple levels up. Before he his base was stated to be less than namek Frieza, after it would at least be Cell to Buu tier, and after Whis training it was solidly above ssj3 Gotenks.

Well, I just don't see it. It was portrayed that Goku was on completely different level from SSJ3 Gotenks and this corroborates with what was established in BoG. There's no evidence that it was temporary, again, the dialogue between Vegeta and Goku on Beerus's planet pretty clearly confirms it was not temporary.

I've looked for it and haven't seen it, and the scans someone showed me before actually didn't even prove what they said. So I would need to see the actual scan as proof. The best I've seen is "it is said a saiyan can gain control of god like power with changing form" but that just means they are fighting at a god level not actually equal to SSG and I've never seen anything that hinted it was actually beyond SSG.

Well exactly. "A saiyan that control god power without changing form" means that they can use God Ki in base and then it also confirms that the official name of this state is called "Saiyan Beyond God." this concept was entirely retconned in DBS and SBG only exists in the movie continuity. The literal official name of the form implies that it is above SSG. One way or another it was portrayed as superior to SSG, or at the very least as strong as SSG. This premise, along with the premise of "he no longer needs to transform into SSG" were never a part of the DBS anime continuity. That was movies only and was retconned going into DBS.

Ya I know, Whis said Goku was winning due to skill not strength. What part of that confirms his power wasn't in the same tier? Base Goku could have been a 1 and ssj2 Caulifla could have been a 1.5 and Whis' statement would still make complete sense. If Caulifla was 100x stronger Goku's arm would shatter, it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he was strong enough to stop Caulifla's punch with his fist.

The fact that once Caulifla adjusted to Goku's fighting style, she was equals with SSJ2 Goku shows they were not in the same tier. Had Goku been a 1 and Caulifla a 1.5 then Goku's SSJ2 would have been 100 to Caulifla's 1.5. Since they were equals in equivalent forms, their bases must also be equal. Now, as we previously established they are equals under the pretense that Goku is tired like he was.

Or like I mentioned before a ki controlled master base could lower the multipliers, or the real explanation which is that it's decided by plot and the writers don't care about multipliers or consistency.

Either way, based on the information we have available to us, Base Caulifla is vastly superior to Kid Buu.

Kaioken SSj4 Goku vs. Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta

Could Goku win if he had use the Kaioken against Baby?

Yeah I would say so. They were pretty even without the Kaioken.

[AhmadHendie]

1 Base Goku black vs base Xeno Goku.

2 SSR Goku black vs SSJ4 Xeno Goku

3 SSBKKX10 Goku(U6) vs SSB Goku(ToP)

Scale according to SSJ4 Xeno goku = SSB Post ToP Goku after training with whis for an unknown amount of time. As the "one step ahead of me" was made in the game in which you fight xeno goku as a boss. The manga and anime portrayed them as equals.

"Super Saiyan 4 Goku: Xeno battles Super Saiyan Blue Goku during the Prison Planet Saga, where neither of the two are shown to gain an advantage over the other."

[dragon boss z]

How can Toppo lose if Vermouth straight up said he was no different than the other Gods? And Vegeta beat him. They both take out at least one Hakaishin each.

When did he say Toppo's power was exactly the same as the other gods? And even if we say he was, how the heck would that mean he "at least takes out one".... That would mean he is above them not equal to them.
So if there was a statement of Toppo being the same as the other GoD then he stalemates one of them, not "takes out at least one".
And not all GoD are the same strength to begin with, so the statement makes no sense to begin with. I agree he is in the realm of GoD, but that doesn't mean he can beat the GoD who have been at that level far longer than him. Maybe he could beat one of the weaker ones, who knows.

[Polyphase Avatron]

IMO Toppo is around the level of the weaker Hakaishin like Sidra. Beerus or Belmod wouldn't have that much trouble with him.

[dragon boss z]

But if you agree with that scale, then would you not agree that SSJ3 Gotenks=8x SSJ3 Goku? and so:
Base Goku(ToP)>tired Base Goku(ToP)~Base Caulifla>>Goku(Planet Potafu)>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu

I don't think base Goku was that far beyond ssj3 Gotenks, and like I said that was from a anime original arc. Pre Piccolo training Gohan made Goku go ssj, and then pre ToP base Gohan matched base Goku. Piccolo charging up a blast made Goku an attack that made him say he barely withstood it. 18 was also able to fight people base Goku could fight, Krillin could fight people 18 could fight, Krillin made Goku go ssj. ToP base Goku definitely doesn't seem to be way above ssj3 or Buu tier.

I mean yeah sure for the most part that appears to be true. Not sure that I see your point though to be honest.

My point is Frost is more around Buu and trio de danger level. Imo it seems the trio de danger, Frost, and base ToP Goku all seem to be around Buu saga tier.

Goku found it necessary to use SSJ against Final Form Frost. He didn't find it necessary to use it against Final Form Freeza. Therefore, Frost is stronger in his final form than final form Freeza from RoF. It's really that simple.

Well in the ToP Frost was stated to be no match for final form Frieza by Champa, and yes Frieza got stronger but so did Frost and Frost could actually do physical training. The manga also backs this up by having Goku tell Frost if he trains he can become stronger like Frieza.

Well, I just don't see it. It was portrayed that Goku was on completely different level from SSJ3 Gotenks and this corroborates with what was established in BoG. There's no evidence that it was temporary, again, the dialogue between Vegeta and Goku on Beerus's planet pretty clearly confirms it was not temporary.

Well it was purple goop Vegeta that actually took the hits, and he didn't actually one shot ssj3 Gotenks either. They could have been around mystic Gohan level or a bit above.

Well exactly. "A saiyan that control god power without changing form" means that they can use God Ki in base and then it also confirms that the official name of this state is called "Saiyan Beyond God." this concept was entirely retconned in DBS and SBG only exists in the movie continuity. The literal official name of the form implies that it is above SSG. One way or another it was portrayed as superior to SSG, or at the very least as strong as SSG. This premise, along with the premise of "he no longer needs to transform into SSG" were never a part of the DBS anime continuity. That was movies only and was retconned going into DBS.

The movie never implied it was above SSG, and I'm pretty sure the only thing that called it saiyan beyond god was dragon ball heroes.

The fact that once Caulifla adjusted to Goku's fighting style, she was equals with SSJ2 Goku shows they were not in the same tier. Had Goku been a 1 and Caulifla a 1.5 then Goku's SSJ2 would have been 100 to Caulifla's 1.5. Since they were equals in equivalent forms, their bases must also be equal. Now, as we previously established they are equals under the pretense that Goku is tired like he was.

That's if Goku was using the full power of his ssj2 form and if the multiplier is still x100.

[AhmadHendie]

yeah I messed up on that part my bad. I would put Fat Buu at 0.75 and Kid Buu at 0.9

But if you agree with that scale, then would you not agree that SSJ3 Gotenks=8x SSJ3 Goku? and so:

Base Goku(ToP)>tired Base Goku(ToP)~Base Caulifla>>Goku(Planet Potafu)>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks>>SSJ3 Goku>Kid Buu

Current base goku is buutenks~buuhan level after the sayan beyound god retcon in my opinion(still way above kid buu) If we highball him we would have to high ball gohan,F.Trunks, Mr.Roshi. his base shouldn't become any stronger as DBS will become Goku time again

He is still nowhere near as broken as base goku from end of gt. That guy is 70% above ssj3 vegito in his base(destroyed ssj Ultimate gohan in base,received x10 zenkai in the next arc and then absorbed all the z fighters energy in the arc afterwards) shock hell in his suppressed base. Destroyed a dimension, etc.whats the point of having other z fighters do anything if Goku base can destroy them at their full power. (Yes,Even vegeta before they buffed his base to goku equivalent in the end)

Goku found it necessary to use SSJ against Final Form Frost. He didn't find it necessary to use it against Final Form Freeza. Therefore, Frost is stronger in his final form than final form Freeza from RoF. It's really that simple.

Final form Frieza is stronger than final form frost. Goku went ssj to force his hand.

SSG Goku was stronger than SSJ3 Vegetto. Just because Beerus's power was actually on another level from SSG doesn't mean that you just retroactively change where SSG stands compared to SSJ3 Vegetto.

That was BoG that was made under the premise of ssg goku being 60% of beerus. He got gutted latter on. Not that I would disagree on him being above SSJ3 vegito, he is just 2~3X stronger at most.

Well, I just don't see it. It was portrayed that Goku was on completely different level from SSJ3 Gotenks and this corroborates with what was established in BoG. There's no evidence that it was temporary, again, the dialogue between Vegeta and Goku on Beerus's planet pretty clearly confirms it was not temporary.

Yes, but buuhan/ultimate gohan/buutenks would have giving Gotenks the same treatment. So we can't use it to scale him to anywhere that far above buutenks.


Battle of gods was made under the impression that ssg eqauls 60% of beerus(and thus ssg was universal). But as the series went on It had to be gutted, as having a character like frieza x50 universal is retarded. Now a DBS writer says on Twitter that goku currently isn't universal at ssbkkx20 power(he said maybe goku can do it If he becomes a god of destruction)Being universal was shifted to beerus~jiren levels of power.

Gotenks is currently reduced to a joke charchter. And he is being treated as such.

[PFM18]

I don't think base Goku was that far beyond ssj3 Gotenks, and like I said that was from a anime original arc

See the thing is that we are talking about the anime continuity so discussing an anime only arc makes perfect sense. Especially considering the scale as a whole is completely different between the two mediums. There was no "God Boost" in the manga iteration and so naturally their Base is weaker in that version. Given what was previously established in BoG, RoF, and Goku fighting Beerus in the Monaka suit Goku SHOULD be very far beyond SSJ3 Gotenks. And it is clearly represented here. This is the most dominant a fight could possibly get. There's no way it can be more one-sided. Copy Vegeta one shots Gotenks after Gotenks throws all kinds of hits at him and Vegeta quite literally doesn't even feel these hits.

Pre Piccolo training Gohan made Goku go ssj

It appeared from the scene that Goku had been forced to go SSJ to fight Gohan's SSJ which would imply that Base Gohan<Base Goku<SSJ Gohan=SSJ Goku(suppressed). And we really don't even know how suppressed Goku is here so not much can be drawn from it.

Then pre ToP base Gohan matched base Goku.

Did he though? I don't recall.

18 was also able to fight people base Goku could fight, Krillin could fight people 18 could fight,

Well Tupper and Ribrianne and neither of them are even remotely good examples of 18 and Base Goku's power being portrayed to be similar.

Well in the ToP Frost was stated to be no match for final form Frieza by Champa, and yes Frieza got stronger but so did Frost and Frost could actually do physical training. The manga also backs this up by having Goku tell Frost if he trains he can become stronger like Frieza.

Through whatever means, clearly Freeza surpassed Frost in his time in hell. The manga holds no relevance here, but even so Goku seems to just be referring to him being able to become stronger like Freeza as in to become stronger the same way that Freeza did, not to become as strong as Freeza.

Well it was purple goop Vegeta that actually took the hits, and he didn't actually one shot ssj3 Gotenks either. They could have been around mystic Gohan level or a bit above.

I don't know why it matters that Copy Vegeta took the hits. Vegeta was exactly identical to him and Goku matched him. He did one shot Gotenks. and he didn't even feel the hits from him. Didn't even flinch.

I'm pretty sure the only thing that called it saiyan beyond god was dragon ball heroes.

No, the name "Saiyan Beyond God" existed far before DB heroes. Heroes just took that terminology from the promotional material for the RoF movie.

The point is, the premise of "he doesn't need to change into a SSG" and being able to use God Ki in Base or being on par with SSG in base, was retconned from the movies. Therefore, nothing during Super's run is contradicted when Goku goes SSG.

That's if Goku was using the full power of his ssj2 form and if the multiplier is still x100.

I don't see why this wouldn't be the case.

Current base goku is buutenks~buuhan level after the sayan beyound god retcon

What "Saiyan Beyond God" retcon? Saiyan Beyond God was retconned from the movie continuity but nothing has retconned itself during the DBS anime continuity.

If we highball him we would have to high ball gohan,F.Trunks, Mr.Roshi. his base shouldn't become any stronger as DBS will become Goku time again

This is not a matter of "highballing" Goku. It is simply a matter of taking what the story has given us, taking into account the statements/feats, and draw conclusions from that. Gohan and Roshi would not have to be retroactively changed. Outside of maybe Gohan's training, Gohan is not even close to Goku in equivalent forms and the only evidence we have of Roshi being anywhere near that level is one brief scene where Goku didn't slaughter Roshi and that was while Roshi was getting a ki amp from the lady controlling him and Goku was inevitably suppressed.

Future Trunks is really strong but there's no "highballing" him or a resulting "Goku time." The way that we perceive Goku's strength does not in any way hcange hte dynamic of the story in which Goku became the focus like he did in GT. Future Trunks is really strong. He trained for almost a decade and a half since we last saw him in the cell saga. We don't need to "highball" him in any capacity. We can tell that Goku and Trunks are at the same strength in equivalent forms(depending on the original scene with Black showing up it may appear differently depending on how much you think Black was suppressed.) But this doesn't contradict anything or bring into question whether or not DBS is Goku's time.

Final form Frieza is stronger than final form frost. Goku went ssj to force his hand.

Such a thing is possible but it appeared(to me atleast) that Goku felt SSJ was necessary against Frost and not against Freeza.

That was BoG that was made under the premise of ssg goku being 60% of beerus. He got gutted latter on. Not that I would disagree on him being above SSJ3 vegito, he is just 2~3X stronger at most.

Well, no it wasn't. Otherwise the line of Beerus using 70% of his power would have been kept. That line was purposely taken out. In the DBS anime continuity, Beerus is at a minimum hundreds of times stronger than initial SSG Goku. The way Beerus's power was handled was changed going from the movies to the anime.

Yes, but buuhan/ultimate gohan/buutenks would have giving Gotenks the same treatment. So we can't use it to scale him to anywhere that far above buutenks.

I mean yeah it is possible but I doubt it. That was the most dominant fight we have seen. The gap between Base Vegeta and SSJ3 Gotenks was enormous. And him only being Buutenks or Buuhan level in Base does not corroborate with what is shown in the rest of the series. It just doesn't make sense.

[dragon boss z]

See the thing is that we are talking about the anime continuity so discussing an anime only arc makes perfect sense. Especially considering the scale as a whole is completely different between the two mediums. There was no "God Boost" in the manga iteration and so naturally their Base is weaker in that version. Given what was previously established in BoG, RoF, and Goku fighting Beerus in the Monaka suit Goku SHOULD be very far beyond SSJ3 Gotenks. And it is clearly represented here. This is the most dominant a fight could possibly get. There's no way it can be more one-sided. Copy Vegeta one shots Gotenks after Gotenks throws all kinds of hits at him and Vegeta quite literally doesn't even feel these hits.

So you think final form Frost and base Caulilfa could have fought Beerus just as well as Goku did?

It appeared from the scene that Goku had been forced to go SSJ to fight Gohan's SSJ which would imply that Base Gohan<Base Goku<SSJ Gohan=SSJ Goku(suppressed). And we really don't even know how suppressed Goku is here so not much can be drawn from it.

But at this point you are picking and choosing when Goku is suppressed or not. And there is no way ssj Gohan was above base Goku if base Goku was above Buuhan. That was great saiyaman Gohan who admitted he hasn't been training right before the fight.

Did he though? I don't recall.

I mean post Piccolo training Gohan right before the ToP.

I don't know why it matters that Copy Vegeta took the hits. Vegeta was exactly identical to him and Goku matched him. He did one shot Gotenks. and he didn't even feel the hits from him. Didn't even flinch.

I believe the special water that makes copies of people was said to make them stronger, and it's completely mad of goop with no organs so it would make sense if it was more durable. And Gotenks did take more than one shot from copy Vegeta. There was as scene of him being knocked around a bunch of times and we see the shockwaves of all the hits.

The point is, the premise of "he doesn't need to change into a SSG" and being able to use God Ki in Base or being on par with SSG in base, was retconned from the movies. Therefore, nothing during Super's run is contradicted when Goku goes SSG.

But it is stated that their power will increase if they keep their ki from leaking.

[PFM18]

So you think final form Frost and base Caulilfa could have fought Beerus just as well as Goku did?

Against the more suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit? Yes. Absolutely.

But at this point you are picking and choosing when Goku is suppressed or not. And there is no way ssj Gohan was above base Goku if base Goku was above Buuhan. That was great saiyaman Gohan who admitted he hasn't been training right before the fight.

I am not arbitrarily deciding when Goku is or isn't suppressed. Goku literally stated that he was holding back. There's no ambiguity whatsoever. They fight evenly in Base and Gohan accuses his father of holding back. Goku admits that he was holding back and claims that he is testing Gohan. Then, they both go SSJ and continue to fight evenly just as they did when they were both in Base. So either:

1. Gohan's SSJ yields a much higher boost than Goku's SSJ
2. Gohan randomly got a giant power-up during that moment
3. Goku continued to be holding back as a SSJ just as he was holding back in Base

I think obviously #3 is the most reasonable conclusion.

I mean post Piccolo training Gohan right before the ToP.

I mean yeah Gohan post Piccolo training was on the same level as SSB Goku in his Ultimate form so it makes sense that his Base would be around Base Goku too.

I believe the special water that makes copies of people was said to make them stronger, and it's completely mad of goop with no organs so it would make sense if it was more durable. And Gotenks did take more than one shot from copy Vegeta. There was as scene of him being knocked around a bunch of times and we see the shockwaves of all the hits.

I believe you misinterpreted the premise of that special water. The legend was that it made them way stronger, and that is why the bandits/evil people wanted it. However, that actually was just the rumor/legend and it was revealed that it just makes a copy of the person and takes all of the power from the original person. As we see with this Vegeta being able to use the Galick Gun and what not, he is literally an exact replica of Vegeta. The guy that was actually familiar with the water explained this. Then, Goku who is equal to Vegeta fought equally with this Copy Vegeta.

But it is stated that their power will increase if they keep their ki from leaking.

Exactly. And did when they achieved the God forms. As soon as they get a hang of fighting without their ki leaking, then they get a glimpse of SSB. The GOd forms themselves are a result of this perfect ki control.(aka God Ki)

[dragon boss z]

Against the more suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit? Yes. Absolutely.

I don't see them giving Beerus a fun fight. Whis even had to intervene and Goku was expecting Monaka to be strong so if he was really only fighting below final form Frost level or base Cabba level that doesn't' really make sense.

I am not arbitrarily deciding when Goku is or isn't suppressed. Goku literally stated that he was holding back. There's no ambiguity whatsoever. They fight evenly in Base and Gohan accuses his father of holding back. Goku admits that he was holding back and claims that he is testing Gohan. Then, they both go SSJ and continue to fight evenly just as they did when they were both in Base. So either:
1. Gohan's SSJ yields a much higher boost than Goku's SSJ
2. Gohan randomly got a giant power-up during that moment
3. Goku continued to be holding back as a SSJ just as he was holding back in Base
I think obviously #3 is the most reasonable conclusion.

But according to you that would still put rusty ssj Gohan above everyone in the Buu saga when that is clearly not supposed to be the case.

I mean yeah Gohan post Piccolo training was on the same level as SSB Goku in his Ultimate form so it makes sense that his Base would be around Base Goku too.

The day before his ssj2 form was beaten by Piccolo. And during the ToP it seemed to only be a bit above Piccolo and below final form Frieza.

I believe you misinterpreted the premise of that special water. The legend was that it made them way stronger, and that is why the bandits/evil people wanted it. However, that actually was just the rumor/legend and it was revealed that it just makes a copy of the person and takes all of the power from the original person. As we see with this Vegeta being able to use the Galick Gun and what not, he is literally an exact replica of Vegeta. The guy that was actually familiar with the water explained this. Then, Goku who is equal to Vegeta fought equally with this Copy Vegeta.

Didn't it make that fodder character stronger though?

Exactly. And did when they achieved the God forms. As soon as they get a hang of fighting without their ki leaking, then they get a glimpse of SSB. The GOd forms themselves are a result of this perfect ki control.(aka God Ki)

Ya with ssj it's SSB, with base it's their powered up base. So it could be base<<<base (perfect ki control)<ssj (50x base)<<<SSB
With that scaling we can have ssj2 Caulifla fighting base Goku and ssj2 Goku making sense as the strength would be much closer, and it also makes sense how base Goku can still have trouble with pre training base Gohan as he is just using his regular base without controlling his ki. It's kind of head canon but it makes sense and Whis did say mastering ki control would make them stronger so that part of it isn't head canon.

[AhmadHendie]

Against the more suppressed Beerus in the Monaka suit? Yes. Absolutely.

I don't see them giving Beerus a fun fight. Whis even had to intervene and Goku was expecting Monaka to be strong so if he was really only fighting below final form Frost level or base Cabba level that doesn't' really make sense.

I am not arbitrarily deciding when Goku is or isn't suppressed. Goku literally stated that he was holding back. There's no ambiguity whatsoever. They fight evenly in Base and Gohan accuses his father of holding back. Goku admits that he was holding back and claims that he is testing Gohan. Then, they both go SSJ and continue to fight evenly just as they did when they were both in Base. So either:
1. Gohan's SSJ yields a much higher boost than Goku's SSJ
2. Gohan randomly got a giant power-up during that moment
3. Goku continued to be holding back as a SSJ just as he was holding back in Base
I think obviously #3 is the most reasonable conclusion.

But according to you that would still put rusty ssj Gohan above everyone in the Buu saga when that is clearly not supposed to be the case.

I mean yeah Gohan post Piccolo training was on the same level as SSB Goku in his Ultimate form so it makes sense that his Base would be around Base Goku too.

The day before his ssj2 form was beaten by Piccolo. And during the ToP it seemed to only be a bit above Piccolo and below final form Frieza.

I believe you misinterpreted the premise of that special water. The legend was that it made them way stronger, and that is why the bandits/evil people wanted it. However, that actually was just the rumor/legend and it was revealed that it just makes a copy of the person and takes all of the power from the original person. As we see with this Vegeta being able to use the Galick Gun and what not, he is literally an exact replica of Vegeta. The guy that was actually familiar with the water explained this. Then, Goku who is equal to Vegeta fought equally with this Copy Vegeta.

Didn't it make that fodder character stronger though?

Exactly. And did when they achieved the God forms. As soon as they get a hang of fighting without their ki leaking, then they get a glimpse of SSB. The GOd forms themselves are a result of this perfect ki control.(aka God Ki)

Ya with ssj it's SSB, with base it's their powered up base. So it could be base<<<base (perfect ki control)<ssj (50x base)<<<SSB
With that scaling we can have ssj2 Caulifla fighting base Goku and ssj2 Goku making sense as the strength would be much closer, and it also makes sense how base Goku can still have trouble with pre training base Gohan as he is just using his regular base without controlling his ki. It's kind of head canon but it makes sense and Whis did say mastering ki control would make them stronger so that part of it isn't head canon.

SSG IS base goku with godly ki. He was supposed to absorb this form but that was retconned. Just like SSG/SSB/SSBKK being universal or 60% of beerus got retconned as well. So no his base doesn't have God Ki

The only way 17,Gohan and future trunks scaling works for me is if goku DBS Base isn't that strong. For me he is x15 stronger than his base Z, which would put his SSJ3 form equal to SSJ2 F.Trunks(who matched ssj3 goku in manga), Ultimate Gohan, #17.

Unless you want to argue that base DBS Trunks is above Super vegito(like many super fans argue that Base DBS Goku > Super Vegito) and that end Of Z(and by extension Z itself) isn't cannon because it contradicts the BASE DBS Goku > Super Vegito statement. This is the only thing that makes sense to me.


People forget that there is A HARD CAP on base DBS Goku power called end of Z. Uub(whose power is equal to KID buu) wasn't fodder to goku, which puts EoZ Base goku in the realm of kid buu~Z SSJ3 Goku. And base DBS Goku is weaker than that.


By definition DBS Base Goku will always remain weaker than End of Z Goku. And by extension will also remain weaker than even his initial base in GT who is stronger than end of Z Goku.

[GT_Goten10]

Goku black(SSR)Fusion with Super Baby Vegeta(SSB)Vs Xeno Vegito SSJ4 with God Ki

[PFM18]

I don't see them giving Beerus a fun fight. Whis even had to intervene and Goku was expecting Monaka to be strong so if he was really only fighting below final form Frost level or base Cabba level that doesn't' really make sense.

Well you have no reason to believe that they couldn't give Beerus a fun fight. If Goku needed to be satisfied with the level of power that Monaka was portrayed as, then he would have needed an opponent he would atleast need SSB for. Instead, he doesn't transform at all. So him fighting at or below Base Cabba or Final Form Frost level makes perfect sense.

But according to you that would still put rusty ssj Gohan above everyone in the Buu saga when that is clearly not supposed to be the case.

Well Goku had been shown to be training atleast somewhat regularly with Piccolo since RoF. Not at the intensity or level that they did prior to the ToP but it still happened. Either way, the best that can be deduced from this scene is SSJ Gohan>Base Goku and that is still a shaky deduction because we don't know how suppressed Goku is.

The day before his ssj2 form was beaten by Piccolo. And during the ToP it seemed to only be a bit above Piccolo and below final form Frieza.

When you say "it" do you mean his Ultimate form? If so, then that is absolutely not the case. Gohan was atleast competing with Toppo and was below Golden Freeza not Final Form Freeza. His power was consistently close to SSB level but not quite there. This is entirely irrespective of what happened the day before.

Didn't it make that fodder character stronger though?

No. The entire premise of the water had nothing to do with a strength increase. It had to do with it literally taking over your body and then making an exact replica with the same power.

Ya with ssj it's SSB, with base it's their powered up base. So it could be base<<<base (perfect ki control)<ssj (50x base)<<<SSB
With that scaling we can have ssj2 Caulifla fighting base Goku and ssj2 Goku making sense as the strength would be much closer, and it also makes sense how base Goku can still have trouble with pre training base Gohan as he is just using his regular base without controlling his ki. It's kind of head canon but it makes sense and Whis did say mastering ki control would make them stronger so that part of it isn't head canon.

Yeah in a way it does make sense, because Whis said that improved ki control would make them stronger. But at the same time, Whis probably didn't know that the way it affected Saiyans would result in a transformation. Because of course, SSG and SSB are a result of God Ki/ki control.

Either way, if Caulifla is even close to the current Base Goku then she MUST be leaps and bounds above Kid Buu. There's an abundance of statements/feats that show Base Goku has surpassed everything from the Buu saga. That's just the way power creep works. Relevant current enemies have to be far stronger than the previous than the previous enemies because the protagonists in the story are constantly getting stronger.

SSG IS base goku with godly ki. He was supposed to absorb this form but that was retconned. Just like SSG/SSB/SSBKK being universal or 60% of beerus got retconned as well. So no his base doesn't have God Ki

...I never said Base had God Ki?

The only way 17,Gohan and future trunks scaling works for me is if goku DBS Base isn't that strong. For me he is x15 stronger than his base Z, which would put his SSJ3 form equal to SSJ2 F.Trunks(who matched ssj3 goku in manga), Ultimate Gohan, #17.

Ok well it may "work for you" that way but it literally isn't supported in any way in the story. Between BoG, RoF, and the rest of the series reinforcing what was established then, this is just not the case.

Unless you want to argue that base DBS Trunks is above Super vegito(like many super fans argue that Base DBS Goku > Super Vegito) and that end Of Z(and by extension Z itself) isn't cannon because it contradicts the BASE DBS Goku > Super Vegito statement. This is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Well you say "Base DBS Goku" as though Base Goku has the same power throughout DBS throughout the series. You have to give a specific time frame for this to have any real meaning. But yes, it is possible that Base Future Trunks is stronger than SSJ Vegetto.

No matter which way you slice it End of Z doesn't make any sense anymore. Bulma and Vegeta tell Goku that they had not seen him in 5 years when they have seen him regularly during that time frame. Goku talks about Uub being so strong when he literally has faced a plethora of characters far superior to Pure Buu. There's no menton of Beerus/Whis and I'm sure there's more that is contradicted that I am forgetting.

People forget that there is A HARD CAP on base DBS Goku power called end of Z. Uub(whose power is equal to KID buu) wasn't fodder to goku, which puts EoZ Base goku in the realm of kid buu~Z SSJ3 Goku. And base DBS Goku is weaker than that.

The thing is, there really isn't. That doesn't have to be the case at all because regardless of whether Goku is that strength level, EoZ is contradicted by Super in several ways.