Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[shadd21]

Would the ability to use MUI at will make Goku too overpowered?

[FishermanJohnWest]

Would the ability to use MUI at will make Goku too overpowered?

Overpowered to whom is the better question

If Goku fights GoD level foes or higher then no, merely the competition needs to increase

[Xeno Goku Black]

They said Blue Goku is stronger then ever, and Omen shown feats at least comparable to UI without even going FP

So no, Goku Omen is at least comparable to MUI from the TOP, saying otherwise is just laughable and ignoring the typical way of how DB power progress things

That's just a random leap in logic. So because Blue is stronger than ever it must mean that Omen is comparable to MUI? There are no feats to suggest that and certainly no actual words. Nothing.

They never said his Ultra Instinct was stronger than it was before. He trained and he was able to learn how to maintain it, that's it.

What exactly is his current strength? If it isn't stronger than before then it wouldn't be more stable, would it? The entire point Merus is making is it'll be more stable because he's stronger now.

Kinda stands to reason that current UI Goku >>> ToP UI Goku.

Which again doesn't mean that his Ultra Instinct has to be stronger. Just because he can keep it more stable doesn't mean it's stronger. Even recently when Goku used Ultra Instinct Sign it was actually weaker when he kept it stable. He was stronger when he went full power and it was unstable.

[FishermanJohnWest]

They said Blue Goku is stronger then ever, and Omen shown feats at least comparable to UI without even going FP

So no, Goku Omen is at least comparable to MUI from the TOP, saying otherwise is just laughable and ignoring the typical way of how DB power progress things

That's just a random leap in logic. So because Blue is stronger than ever it must mean that Omen is comparable to MUI? There are no feats to suggest that and certainly no actual words. Nothing.

They never said his Ultra Instinct was stronger than it was before. He trained and he was able to learn how to maintain it, that's it.

What exactly is his current strength? If it isn't stronger than before then it wouldn't be more stable, would it? The entire point Merus is making is it'll be more stable because he's stronger now.

Kinda stands to reason that current UI Goku >>> ToP UI Goku.

Which again doesn't mean that his Ultra Instinct has to be stronger. Just because he can keep it more stable doesn't mean it's stronger. Even recently when Goku used Ultra Instinct Sign it was actually weaker when he kept it stable. He was stronger when he went full power and it was unstable.

Goku gets overall stronger in his base which is what any of his forms multiple off -.- again this is common sense and has been like this since the beginning to DBZ when Goku gets Kaioken, all the way to getting transformations.


If Goku stronger then ever in his blue form, and before the Moro arc it's said he got stronger then ever then by default Omen now >>> Omen TOP

[The Undying]

Would the ability to use MUI at will make Goku too overpowered?

That's a good question. I see a lot of people arguing something to the effect of "just make the bad guys stronger", but it's not quite that simple.

When you consider Angel characters repeatedly emphasizing that Goku can win against any foe with a stable, completed Ultra Instinct, I'd honestly say so. Anything short of subsequent enemies using the ability themselves, or some other ability that can circumvent it, or Goku not actually being able to use it at will, etc. will make future stories hard-pressed to present greater threats in a conventional sense.

[Skar]

When you consider Angel characters repeatedly emphasizing that Goku can win against any foe with a stable, completed Ultra Instinct, I'd honestly say so. Anything short of subsequent enemies using the ability themselves, or some other ability that can circumvent it, or Goku not actually being able to use it at will, etc. will make future stories hard-pressed to present greater threats in a conventional sense.

That makes sense. I think we might be near the upper limit of what mortal or non-Angel power can reach because the strongest characters of the last few arcs have been compared to Beerus in some way. Shin questioned if SSJB Vegetto might be stronger than Beerus, Jiren and UI Goku were around or slightly above the GoDs, LSSJ Broly was compared to Beerus, and FP/73 Moro is above Omen but most likely weaker than MUI.

It could be argued that they don't know how powerful Beerus is at full strength but it's hard to believe all these references are intended to be wrong or misleading. Each recent antagonist might be stronger than the last but they could still fall within the range of slowly below or above Beerus and not as big of a jump in power as between earlier antagonists.

[Dragon Wukong]

Something to keep in mind.

This arc really hammers home the fact angels don't have their own "power". They just use godly ki like every other deity, and otherwise are just pretty powerful and already adept at techniques such as Ultra Instinct.

While they do have their own staves (which seem to be provided to them and not necessarily a part of their body) and other techniques such as sealing abilities and resurrection, this is not derived by some inherent "otherly" ki source.

[Xeno Goku Black]

If Goku stronger then ever in his blue form, and before the Moro arc it's said he got stronger then ever then by default Omen now >>> Omen TOP

Not necessarily. There's nothing to say Ultra Instinct works that way because it's completely different.

Also him being stronger than ever doesn't mean all that much either considering we don't know to what extent. It could be a lot stronger or a little stronger and it'd still be stronger than ever.

But as I said, Jiren was an equal match for Ultra Instinct. If next chapter Moro gets beaten the tar out of then it's gonna make Jiren appear the stronger.

[GodVegetto91]

It’s totally illogical to assume that a current UI Omen Goku is still not stronger than the MUI from the ToP. There has been A LOT that happened since then to Goku. Lets not ignore Dragon Ball’s constant power progression please guys. Current UIO >>>> ToP MUI. Simply too much training, zenkais and time has passed since then for UIO to still be weaker. Even his Blue form has been directly stated and confirmed to be WAYYYYY beyond the last time Piccolo saw it (which was against Broly even!)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay, but how much is "way beyond" and "unrecognizable"? 1% stronger? 2 times stronger? 20 times stronger?

There's really no good way to tell, and no direct comparisons are ever made between characters' given levels. Like, no "OMG, Goku's UI Sign is almost as strong as his UI from the ToP!" or stuff like that.

Generally speaking, you'd expect characters to comment on when a lesser form surpasses a superior form.

[Thani]

Friendly reminder that Goku and Vegeta do not get zenkais anymore at this point in the story.

[Koitsukai]

Zenkais haven't been a thing for a long time now. FT arc for the saiyans and Buu arc for Gohan. Goku isn't stronger after being healed by Dende than he was before. So they are not getting stronger every step of the way like in DB or Z.

The manga doesn't treat UI like a power boost. It's a perfect way of fighting, so it is counterintuitive to think an incomplete version is more effective than the completed one, even if the user has gotten stronger.
It was a pretty big deal when Goku unlocked it, so when it is surpassed it'll probably come with a clear cut comment from someone.

[Miracles]

Would the ability to use MUI at will make Goku too overpowered?

Dragonball always compensates with the upcoming stronger villain, rivaling the newest kid on the block.

[Psajdak]

It is sometimes hard to believe that SS3 which was so impressive when it was first shown, is now just fine.

[ankokudaishogun]

it's worth to remember the issue with UI (Omen and Complete) during ToP was "stability".
Goku's body was unable to keep it going in either versions of the ToP.

Moro Arc Goku doesn't need to be MUCH stronger than ToP Goku: he need to have correctly trained his body to move with Ultra Instinct.

It's most likely a matter of "improving the way he moves to fit with UI movements" more than "pure power level"... though that undoubtedly would also result into a improved power level

[FishermanJohnWest]

If Goku stronger then ever in his blue form, and before the Moro arc it's said he got stronger then ever then by default Omen now >>> Omen TOP

Not necessarily. There's nothing to say Ultra Instinct works that way because it's completely different.

Also him being stronger than ever doesn't mean all that much either considering we don't know to what extent. It could be a lot stronger or a little stronger and it'd still be stronger than ever.

But as I said, Jiren was an equal match for Ultra Instinct. If next chapter Moro gets beaten the tar out of then it's gonna make Jiren appear the stronger.

Nothing says it works different lol and going further, they say that Goku body isn;t strong enough to wield it properly in the TOP meaning Goku had gotten stronger, or would NEED to get stronger so he can use it to it's fullest.

Feats says Goku got insanely stronger sine he crushed Sangabo and sanganbo is >> TOP Blue Goku based on feats against a much stronger Gohan and Piccolo and 17 and 18.

So once again, Moro Arc Goku >>> TOP Goku, typical common sense in DB

[FishermanJohnWest]

When you consider Angel characters repeatedly emphasizing that Goku can win against any foe with a stable, completed Ultra Instinct, I'd honestly say so. Anything short of subsequent enemies using the ability themselves, or some other ability that can circumvent it, or Goku not actually being able to use it at will, etc. will make future stories hard-pressed to present greater threats in a conventional sense.

That makes sense. I think we might be near the upper limit of what mortal or non-Angel power can reach because the strongest characters of the last few arcs have been compared to Beerus in some way. Shin questioned if SSJB Vegetto might be stronger than Beerus, Jiren and UI Goku were around or slightly above the GoDs, LSSJ Broly was compared to Beerus, and FP/73 Moro is above Omen but most likely weaker than MUI.

It could be argued that they don't know how powerful Beerus is at full strength but it's hard to believe all these references are intended to be wrong or misleading. Each recent antagonist might be stronger than the last but they could still fall within the range of slowly below or above Beerus and not as big of a jump in power as between earlier antagonists.

FP Beerus was shown in the manga battle royal

The issue is them dumbing down enemies so they won't surpass Beerus or barely surpass him (aka Broly)

[Xeno Goku Black]

Nothing says it works different lol

And nothing says it works the same. This isn't a Super Saiyan transformation.

Feats says Goku got insanely stronger sine he crushed Sangabo and sanganbo is >> TOP Blue Goku based on feats against a much stronger Gohan and Piccolo and 17 and 18.

I know Blue Goku got stronger. That doesn't mean Ultra Instinct is any stronger. It also doesn't quantify to what extent. Also again nothing to say how Saganbo really compares to ToP Blue Goku.

[FishermanJohnWest]

Nothing says it works different lol

And nothing says it works the same. This isn't a Super Saiyan transformation.

Feats says Goku got insanely stronger sine he crushed Sangabo and sanganbo is >> TOP Blue Goku based on feats against a much stronger Gohan and Piccolo and 17 and 18.

I know Blue Goku got stronger. That doesn't mean Ultra Instinct is any stronger. It also doesn't quantify to what extent. Also again nothing to say how Saganbo really compares to ToP Blue Goku.

Goku SSJ forms don't get specifically stronger, his base gets stronger, which is what UI multiplies off this Goku has gotten overall stronger.

Bro Saganbo belted a stronger Gohan who beat Kefla, also beat 17 who was Blue level or close, Piccolo and 18

He was > Blue Goku TOP easily.


So it's obvious that Goku now >>> Goku TOP

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Okay then, so how much stronger is that, and how does that compare to the levels of Ultra Instinct and its precursor Ultra Instinct Sign?

Where are the statements/feats that show that one form has definitively reached/surpassed another?

I've yet to see any actual hard points of comparison to suggest, for example, that Ultra Instinct Sign right now is somehow superior to the ToP's completed Ultra Instinct.