The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:12 pm

10 new fights:

1) Koichiarator vs Dyspo (ep. 104) and Kahseral
2) Nuova Shenron vs Super 17
3) Katopesla (starts in base, can go up to his ultimate mode) vs Future Trunks (start of the Future Trunks arc, starts in base and can go up to Ssj2)
4) Ssj Future Trunks (Androids arc) vs Imperfect Cell (first appearence)
5) Ssj Gogeta (12th movie) vs Ssj2 enraged Vegeta (BoG saga)
6) Mr. Buu (after training) vs Bergamo
7) Lssj Broly (10th movie) vs Ssj Goku (Buu saga) and Ssj Majin Vegeta
8) Piccolo (RoF arc) vs Ssj Gotenks (Buu saga)
9) Pikkon (weightless) vs Lssj Broly (8th movie)
10) Ssj2 Majin Vegeta vs Super Perfect Cell, Bojack (final form) and Dabura

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Fri Aug 31, 2018 7:19 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Well it was 3 vs 1 and he only transformed for an instance.

I honestly don't see anything wrong with the power scaling in the ToP. Ribrianne might be a problem but it's fixed by having Vegeta and 17 just be holding back, nothing contradicts this. E118 is very clear were Ribrianne stands in comparison to Goku.
Still thought by how it has been calculated by some, Goku should not have had to even Gone SSJ-1 to have knocked back Zirloin, Zarbuto and Rabanra in the least, even the tired, yet not tired state he regularly was in. :|

Its just by how I have talk it over with others, we just think Super bugled-up allot of power-scaling representations of characters, Ribrianne sadly being one the prime examples, and we where just expecting better from Toei. I know their is likely some business, time, editorial mandate or some other reasonings, but they should have done a better job in my and I know others views.

I think honestly E108 gives a good Verbal Comparison of Ribrianne, both Goku and other universes where clearly impressed by her if you just took the Dialogue part, they just screwed up on the showing the Mutli-Formed hairstyles of Goku to better represent it. I don't think this was intentional or anything and we might never truly know why Toei did what it did, but after view episode 118 I truly felt they liked and cared allot about U2 like they did with U6 as well. They just seem to not be to able to go further then it seem they where trying to, usually that same problem happens in comic companies to often too.

Also I get the theory behind Vegeta and 17 maybe holding back, but I still see credence of their wording and how they where fighting pretty heavy with her. Yea later we saw how Over the Top Strong they really where, but those earlier episodes they where seeming to set up allot with Ribrianne that sadly Toei just nerf under later. It is by the flow of how I saw the story and how they where scaling things both then and later. :)
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:32 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:10 new fights:

1) Koichiarator vs Dyspo (ep. 104) and Kahseral
2) Nuova Shenron vs Super 17
3) Katopesla (starts in base, can go up to his ultimate mode) vs Future Trunks (start of the Future Trunks arc, starts in base and can go up to Ssj2)
4) Ssj Future Trunks (Androids arc) vs Imperfect Cell (first appearence)
5) Ssj Gogeta (12th movie) vs Ssj2 enraged Vegeta (BoG saga)
6) Mr. Buu (after training) vs Bergamo
7) Lssj Broly (10th movie) vs Ssj Goku (Buu saga) and Ssj Majin Vegeta
8) Piccolo (RoF arc) vs Ssj Gotenks (Buu saga)
9) Pikkon (weightless) vs Lssj Broly (8th movie)
10) Ssj2 Majin Vegeta vs Super Perfect Cell, Bojack (final form) and Dabura
1. Dyspo and Kahseral, mostly due to Dyspo
2. pass
3. Trunks stomps
4. I guess Cell due to regen and absorption
5. Gogeta
6. Buu
7. Broly, both of them as ssj2 would be a closer fight
8. ssj Gotenks
9. Broly
10. Vegeta as long as he doesn't get spat on. He could one shot Bojack and get rid of Dabura pretty quickly. Cell may take a few good hits due to his regen.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ricky84 » Fri Aug 31, 2018 8:40 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:10 new fights:

1) Koichiarator vs Dyspo (ep. 104) and Kahseral
2) Nuova Shenron vs Super 17
3) Katopesla (starts in base, can go up to his ultimate mode) vs Future Trunks (start of the Future Trunks arc, starts in base and can go up to Ssj2)
4) Ssj Future Trunks (Androids arc) vs Imperfect Cell (first appearence)
5) Ssj Gogeta (12th movie) vs Ssj2 enraged Vegeta (BoG saga)
6) Mr. Buu (after training) vs Bergamo
7) Lssj Broly (10th movie) vs Ssj Goku (Buu saga) and Ssj Majin Vegeta
8) Piccolo (RoF arc) vs Ssj Gotenks (Buu saga)
9) Pikkon (weightless) vs Lssj Broly (8th movie)
10) Ssj2 Majin Vegeta vs Super Perfect Cell, Bojack (final form) and Dabura
1. Koichiarator wins, high difficulty
2. Super 17 wins, high difficulty
3. Future Trunks stomps in SSJ2
4. Imperfect Cell wins. Even in his first appearance, he was stronger than any grade one SSJ
5. M12 Gogeta one shots
6. Slim Buu stomps, though in his Fat form Bergamo would win
7. Broly one shots both of them simultaneously
8. Gotenks wins, mid difficulty
9. Broly one shots
10. Bojack is fodder and irrelevant in this situation. Pre-Majin Vegeta didn't think Dabura (who is equal to Super Perfect Cell) was a major threat. However, its possible that Cell and Dabura teaming up could take out Majin Vegeta with high difficulty.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:15 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Gohan had trouble in base even before he got hit by the poison, and Lavender was able to keep up with ssj, even if he was had hindered sight. Gohan going ssj really only made him seem a few times stronger.
Base Gohan was Basil/Lavender tier, ssj Gohan and Buu were above. That's all we know.

True, but during the FT arc Trunks said he didn't sense the same power Gohan had during the Cell games, and cell games Gohan was weaker than Buu saga Goku/Vegeta, so I doubt Gohan was much stronger thanBuu saga Goku/Vegeta before his Piccolo training. The RoF and U6 arc both treated Piccolo as lower than Buu, so unless I see solid conformation he is above Buu, I doubt he is. Plus Buu was brought to the exhibition match, and not Piccolo, who was most likely free.
The poison was rotting his body. He was getting weaker as the fight was going on.

No one knew Piccolo grew that strong. Gohan's surprise confirms this since he's the one that has been training with him and didn't even know about it. Trunks comment is weird since Gohan wasn't even fighting.

In any case base Gohan in the exhibition match can't be as strong as his Boo arc self since that would make Lavender weaker than Namek Freeza.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:58 pm

ZombieVito wrote: No one knew Piccolo grew that strong. Gohan's surprise confirms this since he's the one that has been training with him and didn't even know about it.
Ya, Piccolo got stronger, but he was pretty much fodder before so that isn't saying much.
In any case base Gohan in the exhibition match can't be as strong as his Boo arc self since that would make Lavender weaker than Namek Freeza.
Tbh I would be surprised if he was supposed to be weaker than Namek saga Frieza. They had to do image training to see if Lavender would beat Krillin and in the manga the trio are treated as fodder so I would say the manga versions of the trio are likely weaker or at best around namek Frieza level.
But then there is also the potability Gohan's base is still strong from his potential unleashed, so it could go
namek Frieza: 1
Android 17/18: 2
Piccolo/base Gohan RoF: 3
ssj RoF Gohan: 5
Basil/Lavender: 5.5
base exhibition Gohan: 6
ssj exhibition Gohan: 12
ssj2 Gohan/ToP Piccolo: 24
base ToP Gohan: 30
Buu: 40

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:57 am

First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:16 am

Bullza wrote:First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)
Frost is stronger.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Desassina » Sat Sep 01, 2018 3:38 am

Bullza wrote:First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)
Goku fought Freeza's true form with a powered up base before SSJB. He even used the same one to withstand Hit's attacks after SSJ from his battle with Frost. It's not as simple as the mortal realm's SSJ being higher than base at all times, but to consider that Goku was using it to reveal Frost's level before the Blue one, because the latter is a transformation preceded by their regular looking state. Vegeta's power was revealed to have been higher than a SSJ3, for example, when his copy got access to it all before SSJB. So, with that in mind, I'm willing to put Frost and Freeza on a similar realm, but Frost can't even transform into a Golden equivalent, and his attacks were withstood by Piccolo whom Freeza would roast.

In other words: either base or SSJ will do to escalate the battle in power before they transform into the highest form. With base they can save their energy and go over to another and with SSJ they can ascend but lock their power to its realm. Freeza was at least higher than SSJ Gohan.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:52 am

Bullza wrote:First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)
Frost stomps.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:22 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)
Frost is stronger.
Yeah Frost wins

ToP Freeza>ToP Frost>U6 Frost>RoF Freeza

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:28 am

OWmyDragonBallz wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Is it stated in Super that SSJG Goku > Z Super Vegetto. If that’s so then base Goku is now above Z Vegetto.
Also, MUI Goku > SSJB Vegetto???
I don't understand this logic. Why would that make base Goku above Vegetto?
Base Goku practically absorbed the power of SSJG when it wore off. Which is why I say that Base Goku > Z Vegetto
Well, yes Goku did retain the power of SSG and he did "absorb" it in a way, but it isn't necessarily specific to a particular form. He "absorbed" it in such a way that his SSJ was as strong or stronger than SSG and that never really changed. He broke his limits at the end of BoG but that was the only time in the entire series where his Base was stronger than SSG. It was implied during RoF when King Kai/the narrator stated that Goku had surpassed SSG upon transforming into SSB, which of course would be rendered redundant and unnecessary if he had already surpassed SSG. Hence:

BoG SSJ Goku(post-ritual)>=BoG SSG Goku>>RoF Base Goku>BoG Base Goku(post-ritual)

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:50 am

Bullza wrote:First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)
I'll give it to Frieza due to his casual stompage of Piccolo and Gohan.
ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)
Frost is stronger.
Maybe, but Piccolo did do better against even final form Frost than he did against first form Frieza.
GreatSaiyaman123 wrote:
Bullza wrote:First Form Frieza (Resurrection F Saga) vs. First Form Frost (Universe 6 Saga)
Frost stomps.
Even if Frost wins I think stomping would be too far. If we scale off of how well they fought Goku I would say Frost is slightly stronger.
PFM18 wrote: Yeah Frost wins
ToP Freeza>ToP Frost>U6 Frost>RoF Freeza
It's really hard to say, as it does look like that going off of the Goku fight, but going off the Piccolo fight, Piccolo almost beat final form Frost (even if he was tired he should still be above first form), while Piccolo said even with Gohan, Tien, and Roshi fighting with him they had no chance against even first form Frieza. Frieza then stomped ssj Gohan and one shot killed Piccolo without getting out of his chair.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by GreatSaiyaman123 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:15 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Even if Frost wins I think stomping would be too far. If we scale off of how well they fought Goku I would say Frost is slightly stronger.
Frost made a even stronger Goku go SSJ to defeat him. Though you could argue Freeza never went 100% because he wanted to show his Golden Form, i guess.
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by RecolorSaiyan » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:16 pm

u6 tournament Piccolo vs RoF final form freeza?

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:49 pm

GreatSaiyaman123 wrote: Frost made a even stronger Goku go SSJ to defeat him. Though you could argue Freeza never went 100% because he wanted to show his Golden Form, i guess.
Ya, there is the question of how much power Frieza was using, and also the question if Goku really needed to go ssj. Either way I think they were probably at least somewhat close to each other.
And I'm not sure what this mean exactly, but in the manga he told Frieza he seems to be his senior by "quite a good deal".
[spoiler]Image[/spoiler]
So I think that either means he is saying Frieza is a lot stronger or a lot older than him. Not sure which way it's supposed to be taken.
RecolorSaiyan wrote:u6 tournament Piccolo vs RoF final form freeza?
Frieza definitely wins. Even if Frost was stronger than Frieza Piccolo was still weaker than an injured Frost.

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:12 pm

RecolorSaiyan wrote:u6 tournament Piccolo vs RoF final form freeza?
Freeza one shots

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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Noah » Sat Sep 01, 2018 6:53 pm

New match:

- Namek Super Saiyan Goku vs. Mecha Freeza
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:06 pm

New hypothetical question

How strong would Gohan be if he mixed God ki with his Ultimate form?
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Re: The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:00 pm

PFM18 wrote: Yeah Frost wins

ToP Freeza>ToP Frost>U6 Frost>RoF Freeza
I still don't think Frost is weaker than Freeza in similar forms. Not until I see FF Freeza fighting a Super Saiyan like Frost did.

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