Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

But that's assuming that he was aware of having an Ultimate Evolution when he made that comment. The way it sounded to me when it was mentioned in the movie was that Frieza probably unexpectedly obtained this Golden Form, got excited by how powerful it was and then rushed immediately to Earth.

How did he know it was going to take him exactly four months to obtain a new form? Especially when he'd never even trained before and this form never existed before him?

Not just that but even before he turned Golden he told Goku that he was even stronger than he thought. Well he thought he was stronger than Buu before so now he thinks he's stronger than the Goku whose stronger than Buu.

Oh, I thought you were referring to Freeza facing Goku in his Fourth Form with the rationale "Goku was supposed to be stronger than Buu and Freeza wanted to fight him in his Fourth Form".

When he turned Golden he already knew Goku was hiding his Super Saiyan form.
I think it would be simpler to tell ya how I see the whole thing. To me it goes like this:

* Freeza says he will become stronger than Fat Buu (because he really is the only Buu around was Fat).
* Freeza becomes stronger than Fat Buu for sure with its Golden Form - because it's supposed to kill Goku, who is in turn > Fat Buu.
* We don't know about the Fourth Form.

Wait, actually there is definitely a critical issue here... Freeza, being born millions of years later, is not even supposed to know exactly how strong the sealed Buu is besides the fact that he's stronger than Cold and Freeza. So it's safe to say Freeza just trained to get as strong as possible without a clear comparison and rushed to Earth when he obtained the Golden Form because, like you said, felt it was a safe bet.

[TheMikado]

So just to make sure I've got this straight...

Base Goku/Vegeta >= SSJ3 = Final form Frieza.

We have no evidence that the SSJ multiplier is gone and the base Goku vs Assault Frost and final form Frost vs SSJ Goku implies the scaling is still the same from early DBZ. Meaning SSJ Goku is X50-100 SSJ3 or Buu. This means theoritically Piccolo who shouldn't even be SSJ3 level would have to be substantially above Buu to even fight against a weakened Frost????

Furthermore if Cabba is taking on SSJ Vegeta in base he would already be x50 stronger than Buu then you have to do an additional X50 multiplier for his SSJ transformation.

So if they are already get this kinds of multipliers where do Beerus and SSB fit in???
If SSJ Vegeta made Beerus use nearly 10% of his power and that was x50-100 Vegeta's base. Once Vegeta levels were at SSJ3 base with the x50 multiplier he should have far surpassed Beerus without even going SSB.

Even if we used the 6-10-15 Goku would be a .12 in base, 6 in SSJ, 12 in SSJ2, and 48 in SSJ3!!! This is without going his blue form and measuring it strictly on base. Remember SSJ3 is a 400x multiplier.

So why is Piccolo and literally everyone else so strong or how did everyone get so weak so suddenly or what are the multipliers now because the frost vs Goku fight implies they are intact and then they suddenly are contradicted in the very next round of fighting.

[LowRyder2005]

So why is Piccolo and literally everyone else so strong or how did everyone get so weak?

That's the crux of the matter in a nutshell.

[Bullza]

Oh, I thought you were referring to Freeza facing Goku in his Fourth Form with the rationale "Goku was supposed to be stronger than Buu and Freeza wanted to fight him in his Fourth Form".

That is what I'm getting at.

When he turned Golden he already knew Goku was hiding his Super Saiyan form.

I highly doubt he was referring to Super Saiyan. He thought Goku was stronger than Buu, he was confident regardless that he could beat him, he fought against him, Goku had the upper hand and Frieza said he was stronger than he thought.

That seems simple and straightforward. Why would he be referring to Super Saiyan when he never used it? And how would he know how strong it was?

Before the two started fighting Frieza expected and was willing to fight Goku as a Super Saiyan anyway.

Wait, actually there is definitely a critical issue here... Freeza, being born millions of years later, is not even supposed to know exactly how strong the sealed Buu is besides the fact that he's stronger than Cold and Freeza.

There is that but I'm sure that line of dialogue was put in there for a reason. He must have had an idea of how strong he was because after he was told Goku beat him he said it was more than he thought but he could still beat him if he trained.

And I doubt they were referring to the Fat Buu either because it was Kid Buu who'd be creating legends from destroying everything. Fat Buu was quickly sealed away after being deemed useless.

[apex_pretador]

I won't put magatta above frost. Base vegeta easily beat him.

Also, I think magatta was absorbing the ki blasts & converting them to fire / lava based attacks.

How did base vegeta easily beat him? Lol

Also magetta didnt absorb any ki blasts.Plus it was explained in the previous episode that magetta generates his lava from inside his body.

Base vegeta was beating him without even using his hands.

When was it "explained" that magatta generates lava inside his body? I saw it several times that whenever vegeta fired ki blasts, magatta opened his mouth to eat the energy, and then lava appeared in place of the ki energy.

[LowRyder2005]

There is that but I'm sure that line of dialogue was put in there for a reason. He must have had an idea of how strong he was because after he was told Goku beat him he said it was more than he thought but he could still beat him if he trained.

Yeah, but how is Cold supposed to know Buu's strenght if not for the legends behind Buu and nothing else?

* Cold can't feel ki and even if he could he can't... y'know, telepathically send a projection of Buu's ki to his son.
* Buu has never been awakened after being sealed by Bibidi, million of years before Cold was even born, up until way after Cold's and Freeza's death.

I can think of only one reasonable explanation: Cold probably knew the legends and knew Buu had unfathomable power, so he told Freeza to act cautious and avoid both Buu and Beerus. That's all there should be to it. Seems reasonable enough and enough of a motivation.
Arguing the contrary means arguing Cold felt Buu's ki and that's, again, a near impossibility according to all we know.

Although it's worth mentioning to note that Freeza in fact saw both Kid Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the anime continuity (see filler), Freeza still can't feel ki so he can at most guess they are just massively stronger than him. Pretty much what ROF states again.
And another problem: you are implying Freeza was so eager to kill Goku he would've rushed to Earth the moment he had unlocked his Golden Form, if I'm correct. If he was already stronger than Buu he should've probably rushed the moment he had reached that plateau in his Final Form. Right? Why bother reaching another realm of strenght if he was hellbent on getting his revenge as soon as possible? But we know for a fact that he won't rush to Earth in his Final Form, the Golden Form is the last thing he unlocks and then he immediately moves to Earth.
What if he still felt insecure about beating Super Saiyan 3 Goku in his Fourth Form? It sounds like more than a possibility if you try to put everything in-context.

[apex_pretador]

... Note: I've left Beerus out of the equation, but it may be time to bring it in. Golden Form Freeza is still in fact < Beerus, while he thinks Goku > Beerus and he wants to kill Goku (> Beerus). That reinforces even more the idea that Freeza is simply training to get as strong as possible without a clear goal, and he went to Earth when he was sure he could win.

how / when / why has anyone everrrrr thought that goku > Beerus?

[LowRyder2005]

... Note: I've left Beerus out of the equation, but it may be time to bring it in. Golden Form Freeza is still in fact < Beerus, while he thinks Goku > Beerus and he wants to kill Goku (> Beerus). That reinforces even more the idea that Freeza is simply training to get as strong as possible without a clear goal, and he went to Earth when he was sure he could win.

how / when / why has anyone everrrrr thought that goku > Beerus?

Hmmm, yeah, my bad. I re-read that excerpt and Freeza was to only one to mention Beerus and Buu.
Sorbet is the only one referencing Goku > Majin Buu. Apologies. Disregard that part.

[TheMikado]

So why is Piccolo and literally everyone else so strong or how did everyone get so weak?

That's the crux of the matter in a nutshell.

So are we just ignoring this because we're so desperate for a new Dragonball series or what? Like I don't even know how it's possible to have a shonen anime without clearly or at least vague and implied power levels??? I mean this is something even Pokemon did.

[buutenks]

Considering how hard vegeta was trying as ssj and his only other option was using ssj blue vs magetta if he failed. id say the 2 base theories is out the window and that the u6 fighters r in fact that powerful, even tho frost looks like hed get killed by raditz... hehe ^^

Plus i see no reason why goku and in turn vegeta would have gotten weaker than they were in the ROF arc.

[Noah]

Just wanted to drop this interesting theory in this thread:

Seeing as how Toriyama said there'd no longer be SSj2 or 3 used in the show, I think Goku and Vegeta either have somehow amalgamated SSj2 and 3 into 1, or SSj just works as something that brings out full "beyond God" power, as to differentiate it from their regular Base power. I think SSj was brought back mainly due to nostalgia towards the form, so this is how I see things now:

1) Base - maximum power without tapping into the God ki
2) SSj - an equivalent of RoF's "Saiyan beyond God", probably chosen for its flashier looks
3) SSjB - the only true level above that - infuses Super Saiyan with God Ki and makes the warrior a total badass.

So SSj2 and SSj3 probably wouldn't provide any noticeable boost over SSj in this case, because they only multiply the non-God ki, and the God ki probably consitutes like over 99,999% of the Saiyan's power at that point.

[emperior]

I base my power levels from Toriyama's statement of God Goku being 6, Beerus at 70% being a 7, Full Power 10, and Whis 15 and use it as a base to make power levels.

BoG Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 250
SSJ - 12,500
SSJ2 - 25,000
SSJ3 - 50,000
SSG - 6,500,000

Vegeta
Base - 240
SSJ - 12,000
SSJ2 - 24,000
SSJ2 Enraged - 960,000

Beerus
Full Power - 10,000,000
vs SSJ3 Goku, at 1% - 100,000
vs Enraged Vegeta, at 10% - 1,000,000
vs God Goku, at 70% - 7,000,000

Whis
Full Power - 15,000,000

RoF Arc

Spoiler:

Goku with God Ki
Base - 140,000
SSB - 7,000,000

Vegeta with God Ki
Base - 142,000
SSB - 7,100,000

Freezer
1st Form - 15,000
4th Form - 150,000
Golden - 7,500,000
Exhausted - 6,500,000

(Golden Form is 50x of Freezer's 4th form)

Gohan
Base - 200
SSJ - 10,000

Tagoma
Pre-Training - 100
Post-Training - 10,000
Possessed by Ginyu - 9,000

Universal Tournament Arc

Spoiler:

Goku
Base - 500
SSJ - 25,000

Vegeta

Base - 500
SSJ - 25,000

Piccolo - 10,000

Mr Buu - 40,000

Monaka - ???


Botamo - 500

Frost
1st Form - 250
Assault Form - 1,000
Final Form - 15,000

Otto Magetta - 30,000

Cabba
Base - 500
SSJ (Enraged) - 30,000

Goku with God Ki
Base - 180,000
SSJB - 9,000,000

Vegeta with God Ki
Base - 180,000
SSJB - 9,000,000

Hit - 9,500,000

[buutenks]

That would also work, however vegeta was clearly giving his all. If he could just use god ki and infuse his base with it, he would have easily defeated magetta.

So, perhaps goku and vegeta to get to the god realm of power must go ssj blue.

So, this means that base and ssj are much much more weaker than ssj blue.

This is also backed up by whis stating that goku and vegeta's base form are way below the realm of the gods.

[Chiki]

That would also work, however vegeta was clearly giving his all. If he could just use god ki and infuse his base with it, he would have easily defeated magetta.

So, perhaps goku and vegeta to get to the god realm of power must go ssj blue.

So, this means that base and ssj are much much more weaker than ssj blue.

This is also backed up by whis stating that goku and vegeta's base form are way below the realm of the gods.

I think Vegeta was giving his all without using god ki.

Goku was able to fight against Beerus fine after his SSG power ran out, so there's definitely a difference between Base and Base w/ God ki.

[ZombieVito]

That would also work, however vegeta was clearly giving his all. If he could just use god ki and infuse his base with it, he would have easily defeated magetta.

So, perhaps goku and vegeta to get to the god realm of power must go ssj blue.

So, this means that base and ssj are much much more weaker than ssj blue.

This is also backed up by whis stating that goku and vegeta's base form are way below the realm of the gods.

This will also explain how Oob can fight with base Goku later on. My only gripe is that this will make final form Freeza not that big of a deal.

[LightBing]

That would also work, however vegeta was clearly giving his all. If he could just use god ki and infuse his base with it, he would have easily defeated magetta.

So, perhaps goku and vegeta to get to the god realm of power must go ssj blue.

So, this means that base and ssj are much much more weaker than ssj blue.

This is also backed up by whis stating that goku and vegeta's base form are way below the realm of the gods.

This will also explain how Oob can fight with base Goku later on. My only gripe is that this will make final form Freeza not that big of a deal.

For me, it makes Freeza's and Vegeta's gains grounded. Insane power jumps due to transformations is something I can accept. It also maintains SSJ as an intermediate transformation which I approve of.

[Chiki]

That would also work, however vegeta was clearly giving his all. If he could just use god ki and infuse his base with it, he would have easily defeated magetta.

So, perhaps goku and vegeta to get to the god realm of power must go ssj blue.

So, this means that base and ssj are much much more weaker than ssj blue.

This is also backed up by whis stating that goku and vegeta's base form are way below the realm of the gods.

This will also explain how Oob can fight with base Goku later on. My only gripe is that this will make final form Freeza not that big of a deal.

It can't be right since Base/SS Goku fought evenly against 70% Beerus after SSG wore off. He can use god ki without SSGSS.

[TheMikado]

It can't be right since Base/SS Goku fought evenly against 70% Beerus after SSG wore off. He can use god ki without SSGSS.

Right this the exact problem right here.

Goku SSJ fought Beerus at 70% of his full power. This was confirmed by the 6-10-15 figure.

After absorbing be God Ki he gets to 60% Beerus without even trying. SSB is still below Beerus and Golden Frieza full power which is like x1.3 and more of a boost to the point where its almost worthless.
Furthermore that would put Frost AND Piccolo at around 50% Beerus!!!! I'll accept Frost because reasons, but no way Piccolo is 10/20/30 let alone around 50% Beerus levels for no damn reason at all.

[dbzfan7]

That would also work, however vegeta was clearly giving his all. If he could just use god ki and infuse his base with it, he would have easily defeated magetta.

So, perhaps goku and vegeta to get to the god realm of power must go ssj blue.

So, this means that base and ssj are much much more weaker than ssj blue.

This is also backed up by whis stating that goku and vegeta's base form are way below the realm of the gods.

This will also explain how Oob can fight with base Goku later on. My only gripe is that this will make final form Freeza not that big of a deal.

For me, it makes Freeza's and Vegeta's gains grounded. Insane power jumps due to transformations is something I can accept. It also maintains SSJ as an intermediate transformation which I approve of.

Agreed. I'd prefer if the transformations were what had the insane power jumps, rather than insane base jumps with tiny multipliers. It'd make Freeza and Vegeta's gains less stupid.

[kinisking]

Agreed. I'd prefer if the transformations were what had the insane power jumps, rather than insane base jumps with tiny multipliers. It'd make Freeza and Vegeta's gains less stupid.

That's clearly not how it works if First form freeza can beat super saiyan gohan which is at least semi perfect cell.