So what exactly is this SSGSS?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Trunks' timeline merges with the main timeline.

What are you talking about? Trunks' timeline is a separate world.

[Blackstripe]

Unless the universes are being merged then anything happening outside of the main universe in Marvel and DC are not taken seriously. There are things that happen in some DC universes that are ignored altogether even within their own continuity.

That doesn't make it non-canon. Trunks' timeline isn't non-canon.

Oooh, so THAT is what you think?

You think he literally meant it was an alternate timeline like the one Trunks created? No, that certainly wasn't his meaning. Look, let me put this into perspective. Beerus said there were twelve universes, each with their own God of Destruction. Now, I highly, highly doubt one of these is Dragonball GT, since I think the idea is for Goku to confront 12 different Gods of destruction and overcome them in typical Dragon Ball fashion.

Now, what one must ask is if all deviations in history simply create alternate timelines within the same universe. What this would mean, if so, is that Trunks' timeline is still a part of Beerus' universe. Except, even in games like Xenoverse, it basically outright says that GT is just a weird aberration caused by Demigra's influence, and even implies at the end that it disappears once you're finished with it. At most it's considered a pocket dimension in that game.

Now, you can sit there and pretend that canon doesn't exist for Dragon Ball, but then you must also believe it doesn't exist for anything else and that every form of media representation is somehow equal regardless of how much of a hand the original creators had in it. You must somehow believe that Toei = Toriyama in terms of canonicity. If you really think like that, well then I suppose there's no helping you.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Υοu misunderstood, I don't mean that GT is another of the 12 Universes, it's been made very clear that everything we've seen so far happens in the 7th Universe. XenoVerse explains that the GT timeline was created by Trunks' time-travels, not by Demigra, so it doesn't disappear, it continuous to exist in its own separate timeline. Going by the character interactions in XenoVerse, by the timeline in Chozenshuu #4, and the press statement by Toei, BoG happened in this alternative timeline as well.

You must somehow believe that Toei = Toriyama in terms of canonicity. If you really think like that, well then I suppose there's no helping you.

It's Shueisha = Toriyama, actually. They own together the franchise, and Toriyama can't do whatever he wants.

[Blackstripe]

It's Shueisha = Toriyama, actually. They own together the franchise, and Toriyama can't do whatever he wants.

On the contrary, he can. Now, at least. Akira Toriyama is a world renowned author, possibly the biggest name in Manga in Japan, up there with Osamu Tezuka in terms of status. If he wanted to do something with Dragon Ball they didn't agree with, Shueisha might offer a token protest, but if he pushed back they would fold like a house of cards.

Back when he was actually writing Dragon Ball and was just another Mangaka, then yes, he had to listen to them. Now, they have to listen to him, or risk losing him, since anyone in Japan would love to have Akira Toriyama working for them. So now, Shueisha isn't equal to Toriyama anymore. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with Dragon Ball, and they'll smile and nod just to be able to say that it was "written by Akira Toriyama".

[DBZGTKOSDH]

On the contrary, he can. Now, at least. Akira Toriyama is a world renowned author, possibly the biggest name in Manga in Japan, up there with Osamu Tezuka in terms of status. If he wanted to do something with Dragon Ball they didn't agree with, Shueisha might offer a token protest, but if he pushed back they would fold like a house of cards.

Back when he was actually writing Dragon Ball and was just another Mangaka, then yes, he had to listen to them. Now, they have to listen to him, or risk losing him, since anyone in Japan would love to have Akira Toriyama working for them. So now, Shueisha isn't equal to Toriyama anymore. He can do pretty much whatever he wants with Dragon Ball, and they'll smile and nod just to be able to say that it was "written by Akira Toriyama".

If BoG was exactly how Toriyama envisioned it, it would have lasted over 2 hours. Toriyama can't do anything he wants.

[Hitiro]

Trunks' timeline merges with the main timeline.

What are you talking about? Trunks' timeline is a separate world.

Which happens to merge with the main timeline because he comes to the main timeline. It is relatively simple. The reason we should care about his timeline is because it get's introduced to us via the main timeline. But material that doesn't tie into the main timeline is often not considered and doesn't need to be when we're talking the main timeline. Unless we get SSJ4 Goku popping up and helping Goku in Dragon Ball Super there is no reason for us to take DBGT serious in any capacity. As with stories that fall out of the main continuity in most other stories.

[Blackstripe]

If BoG was exactly how Toriyama envisioned it, it would have lasted over 2 hours. Toriyama can't do anything he wants.

Are you even being serious now, using BoG? The movie was completely different before Toriyama came along. He basically completely changed the planned script and characters to an almost hilarious degree. Beerus, the main antagonist, was originally nothing like he ended up being. Of all the movies you could have chosen, you basically chose the one Akira Toriyama essentially remade to show he can't do anything he wants?

Just because he agreed to cut it down in length doesn't mean they made him do it. He likely understood that it was running on a bit, and while many of those expository scenes are interesting, the uncut edition does sort of drag its heels.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Which happens to merge with the main timeline because he comes to the main timeline. It is relatively simple. The reason we should care about his timeline is because it get's introduced to us via the main timeline. But material that doesn't tie into the main timeline is often not considered and doesn't need to be when we're talking the main timeline. Unless we get SSJ4 Goku popping up and helping Goku in Dragon Ball Super there is no reason for us to take DBGT serious in any capacity. As with stories that fall out of the main continuity in most other stories.

XenoVerse takes place in the main timeline, and we visit the GT timeline, and it's revealed that this timeline was created because of Trunks' time-travels. So yes, they do "merge".

Are you even being serious now, using BoG? The movie was completely different before Toriyama came along. He basically completely changed the planned script and characters to an almost hilarious degree. Beerus, the main antagonist, was originally nothing like he ended up being. Of all the movies you could have chosen, you basically chose the one Akira Toriyama essentially remade to show he can't do anything he wants?

Just because he agreed to cut it down in length doesn't mean they made him do it. He likely understood that it was running on a bit, and while many of those expository scenes are interesting, the uncut edition does sort of drag its heels.

My point is, Shueisha's word doesn't equal to fan-fiction. If they say that GT is an alternate timeline, and Toriyama shows no issue with that, it's an alternate timeline. Heck, Toriyama can't even come and make movies or his own manga without Shueisha's approval. Not that they will say no if he was to come and say "I want to draw more manga", but still, their word counts. Toriyama is the one who introduced the concept of different dimensions after all, and if Toriyama didn't believe that the movies happened in any continuity, he would have said so. Just like he wasn't shy to admit that Evolution was terrible, and that the manga JSAT was better than the anime version. Toriyama was never afraid to say his opinion.

The fact is, the movies & GT are stated to take place in different timelines from the main one according to Shueisha, and Toriyama showed no disapproval of this idea (on the contrary actually, he introduced this idea). So, the movies & GT aren't non-canon, they take place in different timelines. It's that simple, really.

[Hitiro]

Which happens to merge with the main timeline because he comes to the main timeline. It is relatively simple. The reason we should care about his timeline is because it get's introduced to us via the main timeline. But material that doesn't tie into the main timeline is often not considered and doesn't need to be when we're talking the main timeline. Unless we get SSJ4 Goku popping up and helping Goku in Dragon Ball Super there is no reason for us to take DBGT serious in any capacity. As with stories that fall out of the main continuity in most other stories.

XenoVerse takes place in the main timeline, and we visit the GT timeline, and it's revealed that this timeline was created because of Trunks' time-travels. So yes, they do "merge".

Xenoverse takes artistic liberty with the source material. So no, they don't "merge." Officially there is no merging of the GT timeline. The only place they can merge is in the anime for GT to be treated as serious material for the continuity and I highly doubt that will happen. Nobody takes games to justify continuity if the original source material originates outside of games. It's why nobody considers the Spider-man games part of the continuities of their universes, like Ultimate Spider-man for instance. I think you're just looking for an excuse to merge them when there is no reason to. Nobody considers what happened in Shin Budokai 2 to be part of the continuity to Trunks' timeline. So there is no reason to do so with Xenoverse either.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Nobody considers what happened in Shin Budokai 2 to be part of the continuity to Trunks' timeline. So there is no reason to do so with Xenoverse either.

Shin Budokai 2 is officially a what-if story. XenoVerse is an original story which expands the Dragon World, supervised by Toriyama, and based on Toriyama's ideas from DBO. There is no reason to ignore XenoVerse.

[Hitiro]

Nobody considers what happened in Shin Budokai 2 to be part of the continuity to Trunks' timeline. So there is no reason to do so with Xenoverse either.

Shin Budokai 2 is officially a what-if story. XenoVerse is an original story which expands the Dragon World, supervised by Toriyama, and based on Toriyama's ideas from DBO. There is no reason to ignore XenoVerse.

You can't claim Shin Budokai 2 is officially a what-if story because it is never even said. We just don't take the events of the game seriously because it is artistic liberty to produce a game for people to play. And where exactly does it say Toriyama supervised Xenoverse? He certainly had a role in developing the story to DBO, which I should point out to you ignored all of what happened in GT.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

[You can't claim Shin Budokai 2 is officially a what-if story because it is never even said.

You are wrong, it is stated.

Dragon Ball Z® Shin Budokai™: Another Road takes the intense fighting dynamics made popular in the 2006 PSP® hit game, Dragon Ball Z Shin Budokai™, and takes it to new heights with exciting features to please long-time Dragon Ball fans and those new to the franchise. Dragon Ball Z Shin Budokai™: Another Road offers a completely new story following the favorite character, Trunks on his adventures fighting against his rival Majin Buu in the future. With thrilling combative gameplay such as counter-attacks, super high-speed bouts, flight and Ki energy management, gamers will have the power to play heroes and villains from the worlds of the DBZ, Dragon Ball GT and Dragon Ball movies. The game also features an improved camera system for more dynamic battles and an improved fighting system with over 50 additional fighting skills and ultimate attacks, allowing for a smoother battle experience.

Using a portable Ad-hoc network, Dragon Ball Z® Shin Budokai: Another Road allows explosive wireless two-player battles with 24 playable characters with in-game transformations to more powerful forms. With the improved fighting system and high-speed Ad-hoc battles, Dragon Ball fans can enjoy in single-player or multi-player modes the completely new “what if” scenario of Trunks future adventures.

And where exactly does it say Toriyama supervised Xenoverse?

Here.

He certainly had a role in developing the story to DBO, which I should point out to you ignored all of what happened in GT.

The reason that DBO followed exclusively the manga and not any of the anime is because they didn't have the rights of the anime. But even if they did have the rights, GT may had be treated as an alternate timeline there as well.

[Hitiro]

[You can't claim Shin Budokai 2 is officially a what-if story because it is never even said.

You are wrong, it is stated.

Fair enough. It doesn't change much. Games are always creating stories and never say that they are "what-if's" but they are surely treated like it. My point still stands. As I said. The Spider-man games do it.

And where exactly does it say Toriyama supervised Xenoverse?

Here.

Uh, you need to check again? Because that guy said the only things Toriyama supervised were creations of the Supreme Kai of Time and TokiToki. What does that have to do with any other element of Xenoverse? It seems you are picking and choosing what is said here. "and the key character "Supreme Kai of Time" and a character called "Tokitoki" were created under the Toriyama-sensei's supervision with approval." does not mean "Toriyama supervised the whole of Xenoverse." So this is really a null point on your part. Also, I would not consider PR people a valid source on any game content. This guy says there is still depth to the game mechanics of Xenoverse. These games lost depth in the game mechanics after Raging Blast 2.

He certainly had a role in developing the story to DBO, which I should point out to you ignored all of what happened in GT.

The reason that DBO followed exclusively the manga and not any of the anime is because they didn't have the rights of the anime. But even if they did have the rights, GT may had be treated as an alternate timeline there as well.

You realise that they can still include GT in the story even while they don't have the rights to it. Right? All they would have to do is leave it in the back story. As long as they aren't making content centred around GT then they aren't breaking any legal rights. If they were going to be penalised just for saying "Yeah, GT happened." then a lot of Mangaka's should be sued for including elements of Dragon Ball in their stories. Bakuman has a fusion scene with the two main characters and they talk a bit about Dragon Ball too. There are numerous references to Dragon Ball in other Manga stories. Beelzebub does it. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo does it. Gintama does it. There is nothing wrong with them referencing the GT material. Yet they never did.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Fair enough. It doesn't change much. Games are always creating stories and never say that they are "what-if's" but they are surely treated like it. My point still stands. As I said. The Spider-man games do it.

The Star Wars games are as canon as the movies are, so video-games are not always treated as unimportant non-canon stories. So far, there is nothing that makes XV non-canon.

Uh, you need to check again? Because that guy said the only things Toriyama supervised were creations of the Supreme Kai of Time and TokiToki. What does that have to do with any other element of Xenoverse? It seems you are picking and choosing what is said here. "and the key character "Supreme Kai of Time" and a character called "Tokitoki" were created under the Toriyama-sensei's supervision with approval." does not mean "Toriyama supervised the whole of Xenoverse." So this is really a null point on your part.

He says that Toriyama was aware of the game, and that he gave them a lot of creative freedom, which means that he approved their ideas.

Also, I would not consider PR people a valid source on any game content. This guy says there is still depth to the game mechanics of Xenoverse. These games lost depth in the game mechanics after Raging Blast 2.

They are promoting the game before it came out, of course they won't be completely honest about the game mechanics. This has nothing to do about Toriyama's involvement.

You realise that they can still include GT in the story even while they don't have the rights to it. Right? All they would have to do is leave it in the back story. As long as they aren't making content centred around GT then they aren't breaking any legal rights. If they were going to be penalised just for saying "Yeah, GT happened." then a lot of Mangaka's should be sued for including elements of Dragon Ball in their stories. Bakuman has a fusion scene with the two main characters and they talk a bit about Dragon Ball too. There are numerous references to Dragon Ball in other Manga stories. Beelzebub does it. Bobobo-bo Bo-bobo does it. Gintama does it. There is nothing wrong with them referencing the GT material. Yet they never did.

If they had GT in the story, they would have to include GT stuff all over the game, such as outfits, accessories, characters, and missions involving it. Plus, Toriyama considers GT a side-story, not a part of the main story, which is also how XV treats GT.

[Hitiro]

Fair enough. It doesn't change much. Games are always creating stories and never say that they are "what-if's" but they are surely treated like it. My point still stands. As I said. The Spider-man games do it.

The Star Wars games are as canon as the movies are, so video-games are not always treated as unimportant non-canon stories. So far, there is nothing that makes XV non-canon.

This is not really true. The games are generally never as canon as the movies are. There is an actual canon check-list for the story and the movies are what is considered truly canon. So this is a pretty bad example.

Uh, you need to check again? Because that guy said the only things Toriyama supervised were creations of the Supreme Kai of Time and TokiToki. What does that have to do with any other element of Xenoverse? It seems you are picking and choosing what is said here. "and the key character "Supreme Kai of Time" and a character called "Tokitoki" were created under the Toriyama-sensei's supervision with approval." does not mean "Toriyama supervised the whole of Xenoverse." So this is really a null point on your part.

He says that Toriyama was aware of the game, and that he gave them a lot of creative freedom, which means that he approved their ideas.

Or, giving them a lot of creative freedom just means that he didn't get involved? The can't say Toriyama gave them creative freedom if he designed most of the game. If all he did was supervise two characters in the game I would certainly say he gave them creative freedom. Because all he did was supervise the development of those two characters. It doesn't have to mean that they approved their ideas. I don't see why you would jump to this conclusion. While it certainly is possible that he could have approved their ideas it isn't a stone cold fact. Given Toriyama's lax attitude I honestly think his input was just those two characters and he didn't bother with the rest of the game.

Also, I would not consider PR people a valid source on any game content. This guy says there is still depth to the game mechanics of Xenoverse. These games lost depth in the game mechanics after Raging Blast 2.

They are promoting the game before it came out, of course they won't be completely honest about the game mechanics. This has nothing to do about Toriyama's involvement.

How can you say this has nothing to do with Toriyama's involvement? If you are promoting a game then it is best to make it sound like the game was influence by the original author. It is silly to not attack the market at that angle. So yes, it does have something to do with Toriyama's involvement. I would say that a lot more people would buy game knowing that Toriyama had involvement then if he didn't.

If they had GT in the story, they would have to include GT stuff all over the game, such as outfits, accessories, characters, and missions involving it. Plus, Toriyama considers GT a side-story, not a part of the main story, which is also how XV treats GT.

No they wouldn't. Just because events are considered part of something doesn't mean things have to be included. There are plenty of stories in games that brush upon things but never include them in the story in any capacity. Less recently the X-Men were only talked about in some Marvel games because X-Men's rights were owned by FOX. In the Spider-man games he is constantly referencing heroes outside of his own franchise like "You wouldn't catch the fantastic four in the sewers." Yet they only get a mention. A lot of DC comics have "side-stories" and they are generally ignored in continuity. So that really means nothing unless you understand the context in what he meant by it. He could consider GT like how he considers the various films made about his story, for instance.

[Bullza]

The Star Wars games are as canon as the movies are, so video-games are not always treated as unimportant non-canon stories.

That's actually not true anymore. They wiped out most of the EU in preparation for Episode VII and while the previous movies are obviously still canon, all the video games as well as books and comics were all wiped from the canon.

They said The Amazing Spider-man video game was canon to the movie as it continued on from where the movie left off yet the second movie proved that it wasn't canon.

The Ultimate Spider-man video game was said to be canon to the comics and took place between two specific issues yet that was proven untrue when many issues later one of the arcs was an alternate retelling of the game.

In the long run video games are never going to be considered important enough to be canon because only a couple million people may play these games while dozens of millions of people will watch the movie or the anime.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Quick on-topic question. Does SSGSS have sparks in the film? Looking back at the trailers, I occasionally see white...things...pop up in front of SSGSS Goku. I'm not sure if these are supposed to be sparks, just some sort of reminder that the aura is supposed to be fully surrounding him in all directions, or whatever.

[Bullza]

Yeah it does have sparks, I just took a look at the fight scene that was put up on YouTube and it's definitely there

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This is not really true. The games are generally never as canon as the movies are. There is an actual canon check-list for the story and the movies are what is considered truly canon. So this is a pretty bad example.

That's actually not true anymore. They wiped out most of the EU in preparation for Episode VII and while the previous movies are obviously still canon, all the video games as well as books and comics were all wiped from the canon.

Before Disney, video-games were C-Canon, while the movies were G-Canon, the highest canon level. After Disney, all previous games became non-canon, but all video games, novels, comics, etc from now on are as canon as the movies are.

Or, giving them a lot of creative freedom just means that he didn't get involved? The can't say Toriyama gave them creative freedom if he designed most of the game. If all he did was supervise two characters in the game I would certainly say he gave them creative freedom. Because all he did was supervise the development of those two characters. It doesn't have to mean that they approved their ideas. I don't see why you would jump to this conclusion. While it certainly is possible that he could have approved their ideas it isn't a stone cold fact. Given Toriyama's lax attitude I honestly think his input was just those two characters and he didn't bother with the rest of the game.

The thing is, we have no reason to ignore it, especially when we know that Toriyama had some involvement.

How can you say this has nothing to do with Toriyama's involvement? If you are promoting a game then it is best to make it sound like the game was influence by the original author. It is silly to not attack the market at that angle. So yes, it does have something to do with Toriyama's involvement. I would say that a lot more people would buy game knowing that Toriyama had involvement then if he didn't.

Can you prove that he was lying?

He could consider GT like how he considers the various films made about his story, for instance.

Which is how XenoVerse considers GT & the movies to the main story...

Quick on-topic question. Does SSGSS have sparks in the film? Looking back at the trailers, I occasionally see white...things...pop up in front of SSGSS Goku. I'm not sure if these are supposed to be sparks, just some sort of reminder that the aura is supposed to be fully surrounding him in all directions, or whatever.

Yeah it does have sparks, I just took a look at the fight scene that was put up on YouTube and it's definitely there

Yep, it has sparks, though they are not there all the time.

[Blackstripe]

The more I read, the more it sounds like you, DBZGTKOSDH, understand that GT and the older movies/filler are not a part of the main series, but that for some reason you just do not like the term "canon" for some reason. Maybe you don't like the idea that they're less legitimate interpretations of Dragon Ball than Akira Toriyama's work, but that is simply how it is.

To put it in Star Wars terms, since that seems to be where this debate is going, the Manga, Dragon Ball Minus, Jacko, BoG, FnF and Super can be considered G-Canon (or rather, 'A-Canon'), while everything else would be the equivalent of S-canon at best. It certainly wouldn't be C-canon, given Toriyama's penchant for ignoring it and never using any of it. Even George Lucas used Coruscant and other elements of the EU C-Canon.

S-Canon basically means Secondary Canon, which you're free to use or disregard at your leisure. But that's me being very generous. In reality, most are effectively N-canon, since I highly doubt we'll ever see Broly or SSJ4 in any of Toriyama's official work.