Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Locked
User avatar
Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 4407
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Zephyr » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:24 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Zephyr wrote:The explanation I'm going with is that Vegeta is referring to the full-blooded Saiyans, and excluding the half breeds.
Vegeta had no qualms in mentioning Gohan's name when they were referecing events from the Cell Games, an ocasion when Goku was also the stronger between the two, while there were Gohan and Cell above them. Why would he ignore Gohan now when Vegeta is a guy who gives a lot of concern to powerlevels?
I never said the interpretation was flawless, but I feel its by far the lesser of two evils here.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:I see no reason why Vegeta would leave Gohan out of any comparison. It defeats the point of the quote to begin with because then it'd be false altogether.
How would removing Gohan from "Gohan > Goku > Vegeta" render "Goku > Vegeta" false?
Top
User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:
Contact Super Saiyan Turlast x4

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:29 pm

Because there'd be no point in labeling Goku as the strongest Saiyan if he's in fact not the strongest Saiyan. It's a pointless title otherwise.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Top
User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jul 27, 2015 9:52 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Because there'd be no point in labeling Goku as the strongest Saiyan if he's in fact not the strongest Saiyan. It's a pointless title otherwise.
If you count the full-blooded Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta, Tarble), then yes, Goku is the strongest. Gohan & Gotenks can be excluded, because even though they are Saiyans, they are not normal Saiyans.

If Goku really is stronger than Gohan, then that would make him the strongest in the universe, as far as Vegeta knows (he didn't know about Beerus & Whis yet). If Goku is the strongest in the universe, why doesn't he call him the strongest in the universe, but simply calls him the strongest Saiyan? Why is he saying that he will surpass Goku and everyone else in the universe, if he is #2 already, and Goku is #1?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Top
User avatar
Zephyr
I Live Here
Posts: 4407
Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2010 9:20 pm

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Zephyr » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:01 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Because there'd be no point in labeling Goku as the strongest Saiyan if he's in fact not the strongest Saiyan. It's a pointless title otherwise.
Unless you interpret his statement as referring to pure blooded Saiyans, as I already suggested a couple of posts ago. Which, as I've also pointed out myself, isn't a flawless interpretation, so we might as well get that now-superfluous observation out of the way. I'm already getting the impression that this is going to go in circles of me reiterating the same few things every other post, so I'll just exit here.
Top
User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:
Contact Super Saiyan Turlast x4

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:21 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Because there'd be no point in labeling Goku as the strongest Saiyan if he's in fact not the strongest Saiyan. It's a pointless title otherwise.
If you count the full-blooded Saiyans (Goku, Vegeta, Tarble), then yes, Goku is the strongest. Gohan & Gotenks can be excluded, because even though they are Saiyans, they are not normal Saiyans.

If Goku really is stronger than Gohan, then that would make him the strongest in the universe, as far as Vegeta knows (he didn't know about Beerus & Whis yet). If Goku is the strongest in the universe, why doesn't he call him the strongest in the universe, but simply calls him the strongest Saiyan? Why is he saying that he will surpass Goku and everyone else in the universe, if he is #2 already, and Goku is #1?
What does being #1 in the universe really mean, then? Why all of a sudden is it not taking power into consideration? Goku was undoubtedly considered #1 in the universe after Kid Boo's defeat. That means it was up in the air before the end of the battle, but the outcome was what made him #1 in the universe. Gotenks is a fusion that only exists when they merge, but I see no point in excluding Gohan. Hybrid or not, he's still a Saiyan and still apart of the very same universe that Goku is #1 in.

Most people (myself included) always said Vegeta's statement wasn't including Gohan because he didn't exist when the statement was made during the Boo saga. Now? Gohan does exist...and Goku is still considered #1 by Vegeta well after the battle is over.

Vegeta's statement doesn't have to mean he's currently #2. It could also mean he won't be satisfied settling for it. Everyone else in the universe is such a broad statement that it doesn't have to be speaking of anyone in particular. Vegeta just wants to undoubtedly claim the title by being far stronger than Goku and everyone else. I guess we'll see if Super makes any additional changes, but as of now, it looks like it's going the BoG route with Rageta>Goku>Gohan.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Top
User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:25 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:What does being #1 in the universe really mean, then?
What are you talking about? Vegeta never said that Goku is #1 in the universe. This was a mistranslation from quick fan-subs.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:it looks like it's going the BoG route with Rageta>Goku>Gohan.
BoG doesn't have SS3 Goku stronger than Gohan.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Top
User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:37 pm

Here's the thing about the "Goku is the strongest Saiyan" bit:

1. None of the recent material has treated Gohan as being Ultimate Gohan. BOG depicted him as a Super Saiyan in all pre-release materials, and still does on DVD covers and such, and clearly wrote him as a Super Saiyan given that Gotenks' defeat is given more weight than his. The JSAT special doesn't him going Ultimate or SS. faff has him outright stating he's not sure if he can even maintain SS/SS2 anymore, with Ultimate being completely out of the question. This is reflected in his personality, which is absolutely nothing like Ultimate Gohan even though a personality change was stated to be one of the "transformation's" effects. Since they're remaking Faff on Super, it seems pretty obvious he's not supposed to be Ultimate anymore. I guarantee you we'll see him going to Super Saiyan after declaring he'll use his maximum power.

2. Gohan is a half-saiyan, not a saiyan. Even if he was Ultimate, which he's not, it wouldn't matter. You could just as easily call him a human as you could a saiyan. So he wouldn't even be counted in Vegeta's statement. Which would conveniently explain why Vegeta said he'd surpass Kakarot, then surpass [unspecified] to become the strongest. He can't be talking about Beerus, as he has no reason to believe Beerus is even stronger than Freeza.

3. Gotenks is not only a half-saiyan, but a fusion. Again, he wouldn't be included in any comparisons. Unless they also included Vegetto. That said, I wouldn't completely dismiss the possibility that Goku is stronger than Vegetto in Toei's crap.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: Vegeta's statement doesn't have to mean he's currently #2. It could also mean he won't be satisfied settling for it. Everyone else in the universe is such a broad statement that it doesn't have to be speaking of anyone in particular. Vegeta just wants to undoubtedly claim the title by being far stronger than Goku and everyone else. I guess we'll see if Super makes any additional changes, but as of now, it looks like it's going the BoG route with Rageta>Goku>Gohan.
Riddle me this: if Goku is the strongest, why does Vegeta say "I never imagined Beerus could be this powerful!" in response to Gotenks being defeated? He just heard that Goku was defeated with two light blows.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Top
User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:44 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:Here's the thing about the "Goku is the strongest Saiyan" bit:

1. None of the recent material has treated Gohan as being Ultimate Gohan. BOG depicted him as a Super Saiyan in all pre-release materials, and still does on DVD covers and such, and clearly wrote him as a Super Saiyan given that Gotenks' defeat is given more weight than his. The JSAT special doesn't him going Ultimate or SS. faff has him outright stating he's not sure if he can even maintain SS/SS2 anymore, with Ultimate being completely out of the question. This is reflected in his personality, which is absolutely nothing like Ultimate Gohan even though a personality change was stated to be one of the "transformation's" effects. Since they're remaking Faff on Super, it seems pretty obvious he's not supposed to be Ultimate anymore. I guarantee you we'll see him going to Super Saiyan after declaring he'll use his maximum power.
Even though Gohan was probably written as a Super Saiyan originally for BoG, they changed him to Ultimate in the end, but didn't change the fight, which means that regardless of what form Gohan was using, the outcome would still be the same, especially when Beerus is stronger than Vegetto. The reason Beerus defeated Gohan & Gotenks faster than Vegeta was because Gohan & Gotenks just got in his way & annoyed him, while Vegeta didn't annoy him & directly challenged him.

We will most likely see Ultimate Gohan in Super as well, judging from the opening. Since they are changing & extending the events, the fights will most likely be longer, so we will probably get a better idea from that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Top
User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:
Contact Super Saiyan Turlast x4

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:59 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:What does being #1 in the universe really mean, then?
What are you talking about? Vegeta never said that Goku is #1 in the universe. This was a mistranslation from quick fan-subs.
What is the actual translation?
BoG doesn't have SS3 Goku stronger than Gohan.
So why did Roshi quickly note that Vegeta surpassed Goku when the more powerful Gohan is right there? Why not just say his power is beyond the strongest guy there? Because Gohan wasn't the strongest at that point.
Riddle me this: if Goku is the strongest, why does Vegeta say "I never imagined Beerus could be this powerful!" in response to Gotenks being defeated? He just heard that Goku was defeated with two light blows.
It doesn't matter. Vegeta transformed and challenged Beers to a fight after seeing Gohan get taken down in one kick. I guess Beers put more power into spanking Gotenks than he did in attacking Gohan, or Gotenks is now more powerful than Gohan. Either way, it's meaningless.

Why was there emphasis on Vegeta's anger putting him at a level beyond Goku if Gohan and Gotenks are supposedly way beyond that? Goku (who wasn't even there) was mentioned because he's the strongest. Roshi saw both Gohan and Gotenks get washed before his own eyes, yet surpassing Goku was treated as a big deal. Gohan is irrelevant.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Top
SSJ2FutureGohan
I Live Here
Posts: 2496
Joined: Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:29 am

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by SSJ2FutureGohan » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:02 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Why was there emphasis on Vegeta's anger putting him at a level beyond Goku if Gohan and Gotenks are supposedly way beyond that?
Vegeta and Gohan were never rivals.

There's also nothing proving Vegeta surpassed Gohan there. There's nothing contradicting a chain of:

Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > enraged SS2 Vegeta > SS3 Goku > SS2 Vegeta
Top
User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:
Contact Super Saiyan Turlast x4

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:05 pm

Their rivalry doesn't mean jack. Roshi said he surpassed Goku because it was a big deal. Gohan and Gotenks were irrelevant and were treated as such.

Gohan was gutter trash. Putting him above Rageta is ridiculous considering the former got knocked out in one kick while the latter actually knocked Beers around.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Top
User avatar
DBZGTKOSDH
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 12401
Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:12 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:What is the actual translation?
According to the fan-subs I currently have, which I hear that are very good (from questionable sources though), he says this:
Vegeta wrote:After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that you are #1...
I don't know Japanese, but I can't hear Vegeta saying the word "uchi" (=universe). The crappy fan-subs said that Goku became "the undisputed strongest in the universe" instead of "Number 1", which we can clearly hear Vegeta saying. I've checked another fan-sub, and there is no mention of universe there either.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:So why did Roshi quickly note that Vegeta surpassed Goku when the more powerful Gohan is right there? Why not just say his power is beyond the strongest guy there? Because Gohan wasn't the strongest at that point.
Maybe because Vegeta didn't surpass Gohan or Gotenks? Vegeta surpassing Goku should be noteworthy regardless of where Goku ranks, since it was Vegeta's obsession to surpass Goku for years, and he finally did it.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:It doesn't matter. Vegeta transformed and challenged Beers to a fight after seeing Gohan get taken down in one kick. I guess Beers put more power into spanking Gotenks than he did in attacking Gohan, or Gotenks is now more powerful than Gohan. Either way, it's meaningless.
Vegeta challenged Beerus even though he knew that Goku was taken down with 2 hits. Does that make him stronger than Goku? We know for a fact in the movie that he isn't, until he got angry, which means that Vegeta challenged Beerus because he didn't want to fall without a fight.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:Gohan was useless. Putting him above Rageta is ridiculous considering the former got knocked out in one kick while the latter actually knocked Beers around.
Beerus was caught off guard while playing with Vegeta, and after that, he allowed Vegeta to give his best because he was hoping that after this huge jump in power, he would get another one and become a Super Saiyan God. Vegeta didn't do any damage to Beerus in the end.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Top
User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:
Contact Super Saiyan Turlast x4

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:35 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:After defeating Majin Boo, there should be no doubts that you are #1...
Thanks.
I don't know Japanese, but I can't hear Vegeta saying the word "uchi" (=universe). The crappy fan-subs said that Goku became "the undisputed strongest in the universe" instead of "Number 1", which we can clearly hear Vegeta saying. I've checked another fan-sub, and there is no mention of universe there either.
The "crappy" sub that I watched said "After defeating Majin Buu, he became the undisputed number one in the universe."

So assuming universe wasn't apart of the statement, Goku undoubtedly became #1 after defeating Majin Boo. The main point is that he's still #1.
Maybe because Vegeta didn't surpass Gohan or Gotenks? Vegeta surpassing Goku should be noteworthy regardless of where Goku ranks, since it was Vegeta's obsession to surpass Goku for years, and he finally did it.
He surpassed both based on what's shown. What reason is there to keep Gohan and Gotenks above Vegeta in BoG? He does something neither them or Goku could hope to do. The movie quite clearly establishes that Vegeta was the most powerful guy up to that point. The only one that surpassed that was Super Saiyan God Goku.
Vegeta challenged Beerus even though he knew that Goku was taken down with 2 hits. Does that make him stronger than Goku? We know for a fact in the movie that he isn't, until he got angry, which means that Vegeta challenged Beerus because he didn't want to fall without a fight.
That's precisely my point to Random. Vegeta expressing surprise at Beers power doesn't mean Gotenks is stronger than Goku...it means Vegeta never thought Beers was quite that powerful.
Beerus was caught off guard while playing with Vegeta, and after that, he allowed Vegeta to give his best because he was hoping that after this huge jump in power, he would get another one and become a Super Saiyan God. Vegeta didn't do any damage to Beerus in the end.
Vegeta took his punch to the face and landed a bunch of attacks of his own. He wasn't off-guard--he just wasn't expecting that level of power from Vegeta. Meanwhile, Gohan was down with a single kick and did nothing outside of pulling Beers off of Mr. Boo for a quick second. The end has Beers acknowledging both Goku and Vegeta's potential. Why? Because they were the strongest ones.

Everyone became all happy when Goku returned to earth...thinking he's actually going to make a difference. Why? Because he's the strongest on the planet. I don't believe anyone outside of Vegeta knew Goku got washed by Beers on Kaio's world at that point. To everyone else, Goku was their last chance at stopping Beers.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Top
User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:51 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: It doesn't matter. Vegeta transformed and challenged Beers to a fight after seeing Gohan get taken down in one kick. I guess Beers put more power into spanking Gotenks than he did in attacking Gohan, or Gotenks is now more powerful than Gohan. Either way, it's meaningless.

Why was there emphasis on Vegeta's anger putting him at a level beyond Goku if Gohan and Gotenks are supposedly way beyond that? Goku (who wasn't even there) was mentioned because he's the strongest. Roshi saw both Gohan and Gotenks get washed before his own eyes, yet surpassing Goku was treated as a big deal. Gohan is irrelevant.
So you don't have an answer?

It actually means quite a lot. He already knew Beerus was strong enough to take down Goku in two hits, so obviously it should go without saying that anyone weaker than Goku (like SS Gohan, and himself) would stand no chance. Yet he still says Beerus is stronger than he thought he could ever be after that fight. Even though he can't sense Beerus's ki. What did Beerus do to make him say that? Beat up Tenshinhan?

Because Vegeta is obsessed with surpassing Goku. Not Gohan. Also, I'm not convinced Gohan is far beyond that; the movie obviously portrayed him as a Super Saiyan.

-Vegeta doesn't show a strong reaction until after Gotenks is beaten.

-Gotenks challenges Beerus in SS1 after seeing Gohan get two-shotted

-Gohan overall just isn't given any focus. Gotenks and Goku both have actual scenes with Beerus where they're humiliated and defeated. Gohan is just tossed aside.
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote: That's precisely my point to Random. Vegeta expressing surprise at Beers power doesn't mean Gotenks is stronger than Goku...it means Vegeta never thought Beers was quite that powerful.
How powerful? What exactly was Beerus doing in that scene that placed him above Vegeta's expectations for him, which were "guy way the fuck stronger than Goku, and way the fuck over four times stronger than me"? Again, do you actually have a reason for why he says this if Goku is stronger than everyone?
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Top
Truhan
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Truhan » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:56 pm

Random, I love the quote from Herms in your sig! Do you have a link to its thread? I'd like to know the context.[/off topic]
Top
User avatar
RandomGuy96
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 8881
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:57 pm
Location: San Diego, California, USA

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Jul 27, 2015 11:58 pm

Truhan wrote:Random, I love the quote from Herms in your sig! Do you have a link to its thread? I'd like to know the context.[/off topic]
Here you go:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... ry#p441031

The context was VegettoEX saying that the Buu arc has a silly power creep. Herms was disagreeing, saying that the "serious" arcs were far more silly than the Buu arc. The Buu arc was just honest about it.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Top
User avatar
Super Saiyan Turlast x4
I Live Here
Posts: 3411
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:45 am
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:
Contact Super Saiyan Turlast x4

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:10 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:It actually means quite a lot. He already knew Beerus was strong enough to take down Goku in two hits, so obviously it should go without saying that anyone weaker than Goku (like SS Gohan, and himself) would stand no chance.
Knowing what he's capable of and seeing it firsthand are entirely different. Vegeta said Gotenks had no chance against Beers before he even engaged him, so he already knew he was done. Gohan was Ultimate there. Will wait for Super's depiction to say anything else on the matter.
Yet he still says Beerus is stronger than he thought he could ever be after that fight. Even though he can't sense Beerus's ki. What did Beerus do to make him say that? Beat up Tenshinhan?
So even though Vegeta says Gotenks has no chance against Beers, Gotenks being defeated was that much of shock? He was already expecting Gotenks to fall like everyone else.
Because Vegeta is obsessed with surpassing Goku. Not Gohan. Also, I'm not convinced Gohan is far beyond that; the movie obviously portrayed him as a Super Saiyan.
What does that have to do with anything? Roshi is the one who says he surpassed Goku, not Vegeta. Guys have been surpassing the previous strongest guy since Dragon Ball. There's no special rule that says there has to be a rivalry between the two for it to matter. That's silly. Goku was stated to be stronger than Kid Gohan (the last strongest guy, btw) because it was a big deal. Goku and Gohan weren't rivals last I checked.
Vegeta doesn't show a strong reaction until after Gotenks is beaten.
Because Beers was about to blast him to pieces. It makes sense for that type of reaction. He never specifically notes Beers defeating Gotenks as a big deal, while he's shocked (with the more powerful Gohan and Gotenks) that Beers was able to defeat Goku as easily as he did.
Gotenks challenges Beerus in SS1 after seeing Gohan get two-shotted
And gets spanked. At least Gohan required a kick to be knocked out.
Gohan overall just isn't given any focus. Gotenks and Goku both have actual scenes with Beerus where they're humiliated and defeated. Gohan is just tossed aside.
Gohan gets slammed into Mr. Boo and kicked away. That's enough humiliation.
How powerful? What exactly was Beerus doing in that scene that placed him above Vegeta's expectations for him, which were "guy way the fuck stronger than Goku, and way the fuck over four times stronger than me"? Again, do you actually have a reason for why he says this if Goku is stronger than everyone?
Like I said, seeing that power up close gave Vegeta a better understanding of what Beers was made of. Beers was also about to finish him, so it makes sense for him to acknowledge the power Beers displayed before meeting his end.

Why did everyone get so happy when Goku returned to earth? None of them were aware Beers was able to demolish Goku outside of Vegeta. They obviously thought Goku was going to fight Beers. If Goku is already way weaker than both Gohan and Gotenks there, then there excitement makes no sense. What difference would he make?

I hope we'll have a better understanding from the Super version of BoG. I've always assumed Gohan>Goku, but the newer stuff is going along with the idea that Goku is the best.
Last edited by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 on Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~
Top
Truhan
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 363
Joined: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:42 pm

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Truhan » Tue Jul 28, 2015 12:29 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:The context was VegettoEX saying that the Buu arc has a silly power creep. Herms was disagreeing, saying that the "serious" arcs were far more silly than the Buu arc. The Buu arc was just honest about it.
I think the Buu saga is one of the richest in Dragon Ball. I like to make comparisons to the Bourne Trilogy and say that while the Cell saga and Supremacy were seemingly perfect endings to their respective franchises, and thus rendering the following saga and movie as unnecessary, the end result far surpassed them in sheer scale and entertainment. Back to the Buu saga, I think I've never seen the characters being portrayed more human, as in making mistakes, and having them pay off in the end, because it wasn't a question of mathematical prowess of one versus another (Frieza saga), nor a question of coming out on top with the absolute transformation (Cell saga).

Instead, we were shown the top transformations (Fusion dance and Potara Fusion, SSJ3 and Hidden Potential) being attempted before the villain was defeated with a bit of uncertainty and faith, while still making sense in terms of power gap. Whatever clue to the power of the characters was written not as a statement from the author to the readers, but as statements from characters with their own motivations and in their context. When not heavy handed, it allows us to interpret things with a bit more complexity than just nitpicking, and I love that!
Top
User avatar
Captain Space
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1520
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2015 3:52 pm

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by Captain Space » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:19 am

I dunno if the translation I saw was accurate, but by the way Roshi said Vegeta "finally" surpassed Goku, and the fact that like...most of Vegeta's character is about surpassing Goku at this point and he's been trying to do so for friggin' ages, I got the sense that the line was referring to their rivalry. Of course the fight does present Vegeta as doing better than Gotenks (or at least SSJ1 Gotenks), but my point is I don't think it indicates that Goku was the strongest, just that he was the one Vegeta had been striving so hard to surpass all this time, and yay for him, he finally did it! (...for about five minutes until SSJG XD)

Anyway, yeah, the Super version of the fights will undoubtedly help clear some of this up--especially in Gohan's case where (presumably) this time around he won't have his form changed at the last minute, which is what lead to one of the main quagmires of this debate.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Top
User avatar
dbgtFO
Kicks it Old-School
Posts: 7964
Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 5:07 pm
Contact:
Contact dbgtFO

Re: Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Jul 28, 2015 5:45 am

Captain Space wrote:Anyway, yeah, the Super version of the fights will undoubtedly help clear some of this up--especially in Gohan's case where (presumably) this time around he won't have his form changed at the last minute, which is what lead to one of the main quagmires of this debate.
Would be funny, if the previews(the opening with Ultimate Gohan) are wrong yet again and Gohan end up with only Super Saiyan in a complete reversal from BoG :lol:
Top
Locked

Return to “In-Universe Discussion”