Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Goku did a limit breaking attack and MZ didn't. It's as simple as that.

So, you think Goku Black can overpower Merged Zamas like Goku did?

Of course, he's stronger than Goku.

[Thani]

Goku did a limit breaking attack and MZ didn't. It's as simple as that.

So, you think Goku Black can overpower Merged Zamas like Goku did?

If M. Zamas was underestimating him and Goku Black did a "limit breaking" attack that broke his arms later, well, sure. The implication of the scene is that Goku did a huge feat by himself in exchange of his arms - his body couldn't handle the amount of power he released.

I know if it were any other villain without regeneration that scene wouldn't happen. Freeza for example would either dodge or increase his power to block the blast, so it's pretty much "plot" in action. It's what would happen, say, if Black was the one contesting against Goku there. The reason it happened at all was because the writer knew it wouldn't actually defeat Zamasu, so it would be a cool moment to show, and with a satisfying payoff to boot (Zamasu having half his face melted because he didn't take things seriously).

But as far as powers goes, Zamasu while playing with Goku and Vegeta consistently unleashed attacks capable of making the saiyans drop to their normal state. If he wanted to, he could take them down whenever, but his hubris kept getting in the way - he completely lacked the pragmatic personality of both Black and Zamasu in exchange for huge power.

[SupremeKai25]

"Could Goku Black beat Fused Zamasu like Goku did?"

Well, I've always preferred Fused Zamasu a lot more than Black, but if I were to be impartial... Yes. Black literally has the same body as Goku, but with more potential. If Goku could do it then Black can too.

Ultimately Goku injuring Fused Zamasu isn't proof that he could beat Black (and to be clear it's also not proof that he's stronger than Fused Zamasu...).

Especially since Fused Zamasu resembled Future Zamasu a lot more as far as personality is concerned... he kept basking in his immortality and light, which Future Zamasu also did, he was careless in fights due to the aforementioned immortality, and obviously that ended up hurting his performance somewhat. Just like Future Zamasu, who would often act carelessly in fights and be thrown around as a result.

Black became more similar to the Saiyans in personality and was more focused in battle, so like Goku he might be able to break his limits and overpower Fused Zamasu if he's too arrogant to not expect it.

After all the arc tried to show in both mediums that Black and Future Zamasu diverged in personality somewhat (due to Goku's cells influencing Zamasu's mind), and Fused Zamasu was definitely closer to the Future Zamasu in personality, so...

[Hugo Boss]

If M. Zamas was underestimating him and Goku Black did a "limit breaking" attack that broke his arms later, well, sure. The implication of the scene is that Goku did a huge feat by himself in exchange of his arms - his body couldn't handle the amount of power he released.

I know if it were any other villain without regeneration that scene wouldn't happen. Freeza for example would either dodge or increase his power to block the blast, so it's pretty much "plot" in action. It's what would happen, say, if Black was the one contesting against Goku there. The reason it happened at all was because the writer knew it wouldn't actually defeat Zamasu, so it would be a cool moment to show, and with a satisfying payoff to boot (Zamasu having half his face melted because he didn't take things seriously).

But as far as powers goes, Zamasu while playing with Goku and Vegeta consistently unleashed attacks capable of making the saiyans drop to their normal state. If he wanted to, he could take them down whenever, but his hubris kept getting in the way - he completely lacked the pragmatic personality of both Black and Zamasu in exchange for huge power.

Well, fair enough. I would like to point out that your response is the most sensible out of the ones that I received. I have a hard time believing Merged Zamas would screw it so much that Goku Black would seem a more competent fighter, but he can go one step forward one step back. No problem. Ironically, both agreed to stop playing around. But I guess going any further than this will not generate a consensus. I’m satisfied with this one.

Being knocked unconscious with one attack and only getting up after 10 minutes constitutes a oneshot, Yes.

There was a mention of time frame between the multiple times they got up? Can you demonstrate it?

[SupremeKai25]

There was a mention of time frame between the multiple times they got up? Can you demonstrate it?

I'm not going to continue this discussion if you're going to be so pedantic. Zamasu literally used Lightning of Absolution on them ONCE and they were knocked unconscious straight back to Base form and on the ground. That is literally a "oneshot", if that evidence isn't enough to convince you then nothing will.

[Hugo Boss]

There was a mention of time frame between the multiple times they got up? Can you demonstrate it?

I'm not going to continue this discussion if you're going to be so pedantic. Zamasu literally used Lightning of Absolution on them ONCE and they were knocked unconscious straight back to Base form and on the ground. That is literally a "oneshot", if that evidence isn't enough to convince you then nothing will.

I only made you a question. There is no need to be defensive about it. If you don't know how much time passed, you should not claim they were one shotted, since they literally went through the same attack, in the very same episode, after getting up with more strength. By one shot, it should be expected at least they don't get up to fight in the same match.

[Thani]

If M. Zamas was underestimating him and Goku Black did a "limit breaking" attack that broke his arms later, well, sure. The implication of the scene is that Goku did a huge feat by himself in exchange of his arms - his body couldn't handle the amount of power he released.

I know if it were any other villain without regeneration that scene wouldn't happen. Freeza for example would either dodge or increase his power to block the blast, so it's pretty much "plot" in action. It's what would happen, say, if Black was the one contesting against Goku there. The reason it happened at all was because the writer knew it wouldn't actually defeat Zamasu, so it would be a cool moment to show, and with a satisfying payoff to boot (Zamasu having half his face melted because he didn't take things seriously).

But as far as powers goes, Zamasu while playing with Goku and Vegeta consistently unleashed attacks capable of making the saiyans drop to their normal state. If he wanted to, he could take them down whenever, but his hubris kept getting in the way - he completely lacked the pragmatic personality of both Black and Zamasu in exchange for huge power.

Well, fair enough. I would like to point out that your response is the most sensible out of the ones that I received. I have a hard time believing Merged Zamas would screw it so much that Goku Black would seem a more competent fighter, but he can go one step forward one step back. No problem. Ironically, both agreed to stop playing around. But I guess going any further than this will not generate a consensus. I’m satisfied with this one.

Thanks. Yes, ironically enough, Black and Zamasu fused in order to take things seriously and... The resulting fusion immediately stopped taking things seriously (despite having more than enough power to crush his opponents).

I think, in universe, the fused Zamasu was going on a pretty huge power trip. The fusion basically backfired spectacularly. Funnily enough, it happened in both mediums, and it's worse in the manga because a) Black and Zamasu were losing badly beforehand and b) He kept wasting time even after knowing he was working with a time limit.

[The Monkey King]

Am I reading this right? Is Super's power scaling gotten so bad that people are arguing to Goku Black can defeat a fusion of HIMSELF and someone else??

Why do you guys even bother? There is so little logic to Super's power scaling that it's not even fun to debate, everyone is right and wrong at the same time

[SupremeKai25]

Am I reading this right? Is Super's power scaling gotten so bad that people are arguing to Goku Black can defeat a fusion of HIMSELF and someone else??

Why do you guys even bother? There is so little logic to Super's power scaling that it's not even fun to debate, everyone is right and wrong at the same time

Why do you find this surprising? People have been wondering for years whether MUI Goku could defeat SSB Vegito (fusion of himself), or whether God Goku could defeat Buu saga Vegito (fusion of himself). There really is no limit to how many match-ups you can think of.

I also think it's kind of silly to put character A against their fusion, but if people want to do that, more power to them I suppose (I also find the MUI Goku vs. SSB Vegito debates weird for that matter...).

[ZombieVito]

Am I reading this right? Is Super's power scaling gotten so bad that people are arguing to Goku Black can defeat a fusion of HIMSELF and someone else??

Why do you guys even bother? There is so little logic to Super's power scaling that it's not even fun to debate, everyone is right and wrong at the same time

Well initial MZ isn't that impressive so Goku Black can hurt him with a limit breaking attack for sure.

Do people already forget that Piccolo (Who is base level) managed to do an limit breaking attack that hurt Blue tier fighters?

[Thani]

Am I reading this right? Is Super's power scaling gotten so bad that people are arguing to Goku Black can defeat a fusion of HIMSELF and someone else??

Why do you guys even bother? There is so little logic to Super's power scaling that it's not even fun to debate, everyone is right and wrong at the same time

To be fair, that's not it. Fused Zamasu could easily defeat Goku Black, just like he could easily defeat Goku Vegeta and Trunks if he wanted to.

What was being argued was if Goku Black could overpower Fused Zamasu in Goku's place in the beam struggle between the God Kamehameha and the Divine Wrath. In that specific moment, with all circunstances bein equal, I'd say that yes, Black could replicate Goku's feat. If Goku alone could, then so could Black. But that's not to say Black wouldn't be getting wrecked just the same in every scene prior or after this exchange.

Well initial MZ isn't that impressive so Goku Black can hurt him with a limit breaking attack for sure.

Well sure, but that's only because he wasn't really trying. I fail to see how Zamasu would get "stronger" by being hit with his own technique - to me, he was just punishing himself and then getting serious.

Basically, imo, Full Power M. Zamasu ~< SSB Vegito, in the anime. His performance was lacking because he was using only a portion of his power against the heroes in the initial scenes.

[Hugo Boss]

Am I reading this right? Is Super's power scaling gotten so bad that people are arguing to Goku Black can defeat a fusion of HIMSELF and someone else??

Why do you guys even bother? There is so little logic to Super's power scaling that it's not even fun to debate, everyone is right and wrong at the same time

Why do you find this surprising? People have been wondering for years whether MUI Goku could defeat SSB Vegito (fusion of himself), or whether God Goku could defeat Buu saga Vegito (fusion of himself). There really is no limit to how many match-ups you can think of.

I also think it's kind of silly to put character A against their fusion, but if people want to do that, more power to them I suppose (I also find the MUI Goku vs. SSB Vegito debates weird for that matter...).

That’s not really his point.

In your examples, the discussions are about Ultra Instinct vs Super Saiyan Blue Fusion and Super Saiyan God vs Super Saiyan Fusion. The discussions exist because both techniques are superior to Super Saiyan Blue and Super Saiyan 3, respectively.

In Zamas’ case, his fusion is already using Super Saiyan Rosé, so it should be superior than Goku Black in normal conditions. The discussion in this case is if SSR Goku Black can perform a limit-breaking kamehameha that can overpower Merged Zamas (not at 100%, but stronger than SSR regardless). Personally, I don’t think he can do that, because he lacks Goku’s determination. But obviously that’s very subjective, some people think he can do that.

[ZombieVito]

Am I reading this right? Is Super's power scaling gotten so bad that people are arguing to Goku Black can defeat a fusion of HIMSELF and someone else??

Why do you guys even bother? There is so little logic to Super's power scaling that it's not even fun to debate, everyone is right and wrong at the same time

To be fair, that's not it. Fused Zamasu could easily defeat Goku Black, just like he could easily defeat Goku Vegeta and Trunks if he wanted to.

What was being argued was if Goku Black could overpower Fused Zamasu in Goku's place in the beam struggle between the God Kamehameha and the Divine Wrath. In that specific moment, with all circunstances bein equal, I'd say that yes, Black could replicate Goku's feat. If Goku alone could, then so could Black. But that's not to say Black wouldn't be getting wrecked just the same in every scene prior or after this exchange.

Well initial MZ isn't that impressive so Goku Black can hurt him with a limit breaking attack for sure.

Well sure, but that's only because he wasn't really trying. I fail to see how Zamasu would get "stronger" by being hit with his own technique - to me, he was just punishing himself and then getting serious.

Basically, imo, Full Power M. Zamasu ~< SSB Vegito, in the anime. His performance was lacking because he was using only a portion of his power against the heroes in the initial scenes.

Because of Goku Black's Saiyan half, more damage meant more power. It makes no sense for him to disfigured himself like that for nothing.

[Miracles]

When Goku overpowered Fused Zamas it was stated to be his "full power" not a limit breaker. Unlike with Trunks and Vegeta's overwhelming of fused Zamas, Goku actually does damage. Mind you, Zamas even put more power into the attack against Goku during the struggle too. Yet was done in.

There is no way Black replicates this feat since a fusion of himself was overpowered.

[ZombieVito]

When Goku overpowered Fused Zamas it was stated to be his "full power" not a limit breaker. Unlike with Trunks and Vegeta's overwhelming of fused Zamas, Goku actually does damage. Mind you, Zamas even put more power into the attack against Goku during the struggle too. Yet was done in.

There is no way Black replicates this feat since a fusion of himself was overpowered.

2 problems with that.

1) So Goku was holding back this entire time, almost getting killed every time they went to the future for what exactly? Fun?

2) Why would Goku's arms get numb if he's just unleashing just his full power?

The logical explanation is that indeed it was a limit breaking attack, his biggest yet since his arms took damage. A first on the franchise.

[SupremeKai25]

Lol the episode preview literally called it a "life-risking attack".

No one ever risked their life for using their full power.

Fused Zamasu [Halo of Light] >>>>>>>> Goku, hopefully this doesn't need to be said. When you literally have to break your arms and legs just to win a beam struggle, it's obvious who's stronger.

[Hugo Boss]

The anime does a very poor job at explaining how Goku got stronger during this arc. Perhaps he got zenkai boosts or learning Mafuba constitutes training as it consumes a large chunk of energy. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s due to that “Saiyans break their limit every time they fight strong people” maxim, which seems the most probable. To be fair, Goku doesn’t consider his full power anything less than giving every ounce of his energy in a match, which very little people force themselves to, so that might explain why he called his kamehameha that way.

[GodVegetto91]

When Goku overpowered Fused Zamas it was stated to be his "full power" not a limit breaker. Unlike with Trunks and Vegeta's overwhelming of fused Zamas, Goku actually does damage. Mind you, Zamas even put more power into the attack against Goku during the struggle too. Yet was done in.

There is no way Black replicates this feat since a fusion of himself was overpowered.

2 problems with that.

1) So Goku was holding back this entire time, almost getting killed every time they went to the future for what exactly? Fun?

2) Why would Goku's arms get numb if he's just unleashing just his full power?

The logical explanation is that indeed it was a limit breaking attack, his biggest yet since his arms took damage. A first on the franchise.

This.

I 100% agree with ZombieVito here.

[Koitsukai]

The anime does a very poor job at explaining how Goku got stronger during this arc. Perhaps he got zenkai boosts or learning Mafuba constitutes training as it consumes a large chunk of energy. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s due to that “Saiyans break their limit every time they fight strong people” maxim, which seems the most probable. To be fair, Goku doesn’t consider his full power anything less than giving every ounce of his energy in a match, which very little people force themselves to, so that might explain why he called his kamehameha that way.

I wouldn't put much thought into it, and just take it as it is. He shouldn't have many zenkais left anyway. Best bet is he just broke his limits for the first time ever, he did something similar vs the genki dama during the ToP.

To be fair, even Black getting stronger all the time makes zero sense in-universe, because saiyans never grew stronger mid-fight, turning the tables constantly just by receiving damage, Vegeta would've killed Reecome or even Freeza if that was the case. Only after being healed of fatal injuries, so the whole "I keep getting stronger because of this saiyan body bla bla" is just something that never happened before and came out of nowhere.

The manga does this better, Black needed the not-kaioshin-yet Zamasu, who retained the kaioshin attendant healing abilities, to heal him in order to grow, in the anime there's no healing involved at all, he just heals himself while being on the floor like immortal Zamasu does.

[SupremeKai25]

You have all made one mistake throughout this thread, and it's comparing Black to other Saiyans.

Black is on a class of his own. The body of a Saiyan and the mind of a God made one, the ultimate potential. Black can pull off miraculous feats of regeneration and endurance because he's special, it's that simple. Don't compare him to other Saiyans because it's pointless. It's been a strong message throughout the arc that Black is special and unique, because he's a mastermind God (praised as a fighting genius and prodigy) with inherent Divine energy controlling a strong Saiyan host. The ultimate combination. No one can compare.

Anything Goku can do, Black can do it and better. It's that simple.