Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

The anime does a very poor job at explaining how Goku got stronger during this arc. Perhaps he got zenkai boosts or learning Mafuba constitutes training as it consumes a large chunk of energy. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s due to that “Saiyans break their limit every time they fight strong people” maxim, which seems the most probable. To be fair, Goku doesn’t consider his full power anything less than giving every ounce of his energy in a match, which very little people force themselves to, so that might explain why he called his kamehameha that way.

I wouldn't put much thought into it, and just take it as it is. He shouldn't have many zenkais left anyway. Best bet is he just broke his limits for the first time ever, he did something similar vs the genki dama during the ToP.

To be fair, even Black getting stronger all the time makes zero sense in-universe, because saiyans never grew stronger mid-fight, turning the tables constantly just by receiving damage, Vegeta would've killed Reecome or even Freeza if that was the case. Only after being healed of fatal injuries, so the whole "I keep getting stronger because of this saiyan body bla bla" is just something that never happened before and came out of nowhere.

The manga does this better, Black needed the not-kaioshin-yet Zamasu, who retained the kaioshin attendant healing abilities, to heal him in order to grow, in the anime there's no healing involved at all, he just heals himself while being on the floor like immortal Zamasu does.

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

[Koitsukai]

The anime does a very poor job at explaining how Goku got stronger during this arc. Perhaps he got zenkai boosts or learning Mafuba constitutes training as it consumes a large chunk of energy. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s due to that “Saiyans break their limit every time they fight strong people” maxim, which seems the most probable. To be fair, Goku doesn’t consider his full power anything less than giving every ounce of his energy in a match, which very little people force themselves to, so that might explain why he called his kamehameha that way.

I wouldn't put much thought into it, and just take it as it is. He shouldn't have many zenkais left anyway. Best bet is he just broke his limits for the first time ever, he did something similar vs the genki dama during the ToP.

To be fair, even Black getting stronger all the time makes zero sense in-universe, because saiyans never grew stronger mid-fight, turning the tables constantly just by receiving damage, Vegeta would've killed Reecome or even Freeza if that was the case. Only after being healed of fatal injuries, so the whole "I keep getting stronger because of this saiyan body bla bla" is just something that never happened before and came out of nowhere.

The manga does this better, Black needed the not-kaioshin-yet Zamasu, who retained the kaioshin attendant healing abilities, to heal him in order to grow, in the anime there's no healing involved at all, he just heals himself while being on the floor like immortal Zamasu does.

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

He didn't mean during fights, he meant going through life fighting again and again. Never a saiyan was shown growing stronger during a fight, forms unlocked and techniques aside, only after recovering from those fights.

[TheSaiyanGod]

You have all made one mistake throughout this thread, and it's comparing Black to other Saiyans.

Black is on a class of his own. The body of a Saiyan and the mind of a God made one, the ultimate potential. Black can pull off miraculous feats of regeneration and endurance because he's special, it's that simple. Don't compare him to other Saiyans because it's pointless. It's been a strong message throughout the arc that Black is special and unique, because he's a mastermind God (praised as a fighting genius and prodigy) with inherent Divine energy controlling a strong Saiyan host. The ultimate combination. No one can compare.

Anything Goku can do, Black can do it and better. It's that simple.

Except for the fact that the show itself never treats Black that way. They never say "the way Black gets stronger is different from the other Saiyans because his soul is different or whatever the explanation is", they just pretend that this is normal. Goku, Vegeta and Trunks also never dispute this notion or talk about how strange it is.

The writers also never explain if there is any limit to this or not, Black just keeps getting stronger whenever the plot demands it (just like before the fusion in which he ignores this ability and uses anger). It follows the same line as Hit being able to improve his Time Skip to absurd levels during the battle (to the point of being able to close the SSB - SSB Kaioken x10 gap) and later that is never brought up again. These are ideas that I have never really liked since the debut of the respective arcs

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Didn't Goku Black explicitly say himself that he was mastering Goku's body more as he fought and took damage?

From the sounds of it, it seems like it's more a case of him being able to draw out more power from his body via battle, particularly damage from strong opponents like Goku and Vegeta.

[SupremeKai25]

You have all made one mistake throughout this thread, and it's comparing Black to other Saiyans.

Black is on a class of his own. The body of a Saiyan and the mind of a God made one, the ultimate potential. Black can pull off miraculous feats of regeneration and endurance because he's special, it's that simple. Don't compare him to other Saiyans because it's pointless. It's been a strong message throughout the arc that Black is special and unique, because he's a mastermind God (praised as a fighting genius and prodigy) with inherent Divine energy controlling a strong Saiyan host. The ultimate combination. No one can compare.

Anything Goku can do, Black can do it and better. It's that simple.

Except for the fact that the show itself never treats Black that way. They never say "the way Black gets stronger is different from the other Saiyans because his soul is different or whatever the explanation is", they just pretend that this is normal.

This is false, throughout the arc it is shown that Black gets stronger in an absolutely unique way. The more Black fights Goku, the more he can become attuned to Goku's body and increase his own strength, this first happened after Black fought Goku in his new body for the first time in the Present timeline, and continued until it culminated in Super Saiyan Rosé, a transformation which put Black beyond the reach of mere ningens (as he himself proclaimed) and represented the perfect symmetry between Zamasu's soul and Goku's body. The process continued again until finally Black increased his strength beyond his own comprehension by using his anger for the first time as fuel.

The fact that Black never used anger to grow stronger is proof of his uniqueness. All other Saiyans use anger to grow stronger, Black never did, he even noted this difference. He called the Saiyans mere animals for using such a barbaric method, and explained that that's why it never crossed his mind that he could improve himself by using his anger. Which means that up to that point he was growing stronger in his own unique way. By fighting Goku, registering every punch, every kick received, embedding it into his memory, and learning how to gradually access the body's full potential. Making him a completely unique and special character as far as power-ups are concerned.

The writers also never explain if there is any limit to this or not

There is no limit. Feats and statements make it clear. Black increased his strength beyond his own comprehension and tore a rift into reality itself (very astonishing feat). It was said that Fused Zamasu had infinite potential. The process reached its apex when Fused Zamasu's soul merged with the cosmos, becoming a 4th astral entity transcending all timelines, which required Zeno himself to step forward.

just like before the fusion in which he ignores this ability and uses anger

Using anger to grow massively stronger is completely normal, you have a problem with Black doing that but not with Gohan using his anger to go from Fodder to being able to kill Cell?

Didn't Goku Black explicitly say himself that he was mastering Goku's body more as he fought and took damage?

From the sounds of it, it seems like it's more a case of him being able to draw out more power from his body via battle, particularly damage from strong opponents like Goku and Vegeta.

Yes, which is why he is unique and I disagree with the idea of comparing him to other Saiyans. I've always disagreed with that idea. It's clear that Black is special, down to the Zenkai boosts taken in battle.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta points out that Goku Black would never extract the best of Goku’s fighting potential, because he never experienced Goku’s battles. That actually makes him less impressive than Goku, if anything.

But even if he can’t do what Vegeta said, I think the anime missed the opportunity to introduce an interesting concept. It could be that whenever Goku got stronger, Goku Black’s body would receive that power through the time ring, making Goku Black always a step ahead, since he stole a future version of Goku.

[Thani]

My problem with that line is that Vegeta says that... When Black has absolutely mastered Goku's body to an impressive degree, and when Vegeta himself is also considerably stronger than Goku at that point.

And I don't really mind that idea with Black - he's mastering the saiyan body, but it's also his own genius and ability that allows him to be superior to the original owner, in a way. Black is stronger than Goku because Black, while mastering the body itself, widens the gap with his own talent and inherent potential. In that sense, Black is like Goku + Zamasu combined, which to me feels really impressive.

That said, it could have been better explained. For sure. The writers (and Toyotaro too, tbh) fumbled in this regard, despite not being a new phenomenon in the series. But I guess it's a staple for the series to never actually explain properly what the hell the characters are doing.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta points out that Goku Black would never extract the best of Goku’s fighting potential, because he never experienced Goku’s battles. That actually makes him less impressive than Goku, if anything.

But even if he can’t do what Vegeta said, I think the anime missed the opportunity to introduce an interesting concept. It could be that whenever Goku got stronger, Goku Black’s body would receive that power through the time ring, making Goku Black always a step ahead, since he stole a future version of Goku.

That wouldn't be possible because of the time ring, it protects Black of all timeline changes. Good or bad.

I also find that Vegeta comment funny since A) Black is already stronger than Goku and B) Black surpasses Vegeta the very next episode.

[Thani]

Vegeta points out that Goku Black would never extract the best of Goku’s fighting potential, because he never experienced Goku’s battles. That actually makes him less impressive than Goku, if anything.

But even if he can’t do what Vegeta said, I think the anime missed the opportunity to introduce an interesting concept. It could be that whenever Goku got stronger, Goku Black’s body would receive that power through the time ring, making Goku Black always a step ahead, since he stole a future version of Goku.

That wouldn't be possible because of the time ring, it protects Black of all timeline changes. Good or bad.

I also find that Vegeta comment funny since A) Black is already stronger than Goku and B) Black surpasses Vegeta the very next episode.

And it also doesn't really work in the manga because Black manages to master Goku's body after the beatdown Vegeta gave him, unlocking Rosé in the process and returning the favor!

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta points out that Goku Black would never extract the best of Goku’s fighting potential, because he never experienced Goku’s battles. That actually makes him less impressive than Goku, if anything.

But even if he can’t do what Vegeta said, I think the anime missed the opportunity to introduce an interesting concept. It could be that whenever Goku got stronger, Goku Black’s body would receive that power through the time ring, making Goku Black always a step ahead, since he stole a future version of Goku.

That wouldn't be possible because of the time ring, it protects Black of all timeline changes. Good or bad.

I also find that Vegeta comment funny since A) Black is already stronger than Goku and B) Black surpasses Vegeta the very next episode.

And it also doesn't really work in the manga because Black manages to master Goku's body after the beatdown Vegeta gave him, unlocking Rosé in the process and returning the favor!

Yeah, the notion of Black can't master Goku's body gets proven false in both mediums.

Edit: Well, less so in the manga since Black never achieved completed Rose.

[Thani]

That wouldn't be possible because of the time ring, it protects Black of all timeline changes. Good or bad.

I also find that Vegeta comment funny since A) Black is already stronger than Goku and B) Black surpasses Vegeta the very next episode.

And it also doesn't really work in the manga because Black manages to master Goku's body after the beatdown Vegeta gave him, unlocking Rosé in the process and returning the favor!

Yeah, the notion of Black can't master Goku's body gets proven false in both mediums.

Edit: Well, less so in the manga since Black never achieved completed Rose.

Speaking of which, I thought it was pretty funny that M. Zamasu was like "Stop using that outdated form in front of me, it's embarrassing!" when he saw Super Saiyan Blue............. All the while using Rosé that is exactly the same form, just pink.

[SupremeKai25]

It is also not a coincidence that the first thing we learn about Zamasu (the Supreme Kai in-training) is that he's a fighting prodigy and genius who already surpasses the other Supreme Kais in the cosmos as a mere apprentice.

This is a key detail. Zamasu isn't a random nobody or an Average Joe, he's a prodigy and genius. Goku's body might not belong to him, but through his genius he could easily bring out its full potential and master it.

Vegeta points out that Goku Black would never extract the best of Goku’s fighting potential, because he never experienced Goku’s battles. That actually makes him less impressive than Goku, if anything.

Idealistic nonsense from Vegeta, he would be proven wrong literally in the next episode, where Black used his anger as fuel and reached a power beyond his own comprehension, then tore a rift into reality which shocked everyone on the battlefield.

[Hugo Boss]

To be fair, Goku actually proves Vegeta’s words in both the anime and manga when he overpowers Merged Zamas and when he completed Super Saiyan Blue in the manga. I don’t think it’s necessarily related to Goku’s full power, but about Goku accomplishing impossible things when he is cornered. He even performed kaioken after experiencing ki-disorder because of it.

[Miracles]

When Goku overpowered Fused Zamas it was stated to be his "full power" not a limit breaker. Unlike with Trunks and Vegeta's overwhelming of fused Zamas, Goku actually does damage. Mind you, Zamas even put more power into the attack against Goku during the struggle too. Yet was done in.

There is no way Black replicates this feat since a fusion of himself was overpowered.

2 problems with that.

1) So Goku was holding back this entire time, almost getting killed every time they went to the future for what exactly? Fun?

2) Why would Goku's arms get numb if he's just unleashing just his full power?

The logical explanation is that indeed it was a limit breaking attack, his biggest yet since his arms took damage. A first on the franchise.

It's quite simple really. The narration stated Kakarott used his "full power." He didn't go any further beyond that. The story does not say why his arms went limp either. It could of been just from beam struggling against Zamas's power. We truly don't know how. What we factually do know, it's not from using more power than he had, since he only used all of his might.

As for Goku holding back...We know Goku did not hold back in the first two bouts. It was stated that Goku "struggled" against Black and the second time Goku got a rage boost. Then Black powered up [due to Zenkai] and smoked Goku again. Now before the third and final fight. The story stated that Goku would return stronger [Episode 63]. Goku only fought Zamas while Vegeta fought the stronger Black. So there was no need to go all out. Remember also, earlier in the arc, Vegeta stated Kakarot has a bad habit of not going all out. I think it was stated the first time Goku went up against Black in SSJ.

[ZombieVito]

And it also doesn't really work in the manga because Black manages to master Goku's body after the beatdown Vegeta gave him, unlocking Rosé in the process and returning the favor!

Yeah, the notion of Black can't master Goku's body gets proven false in both mediums.

Edit: Well, less so in the manga since Black never achieved completed Rose.

Speaking of which, I thought it was pretty funny that M. Zamasu was like "Stop using that outdated form in front of me, it's embarrassing!" when he saw Super Saiyan Blue............. All the while using Rosé that is exactly the same form, just pink.

I really don't like Zamasu in the manga. He got ruined in all his forms.

[GodVegetto91]

You have all made one mistake throughout this thread, and it's comparing Black to other Saiyans.

Black is on a class of his own. The body of a Saiyan and the mind of a God made one, the ultimate potential. Black can pull off miraculous feats of regeneration and endurance because he's special, it's that simple. Don't compare him to other Saiyans because it's pointless. It's been a strong message throughout the arc that Black is special and unique, because he's a mastermind God (praised as a fighting genius and prodigy) with inherent Divine energy controlling a strong Saiyan host. The ultimate combination. No one can compare.

Anything Goku can do, Black can do it and better. It's that simple.

That’s Anime Goku Black. Yes, he’s special. He literally kept getting on the spot Zenkai’ along with insta-healing aswell. Almost terrifying. He’s not on Broly’s level of Zenkai’s though. Going from weaker than Base Vegeta, all the way to stronger than even Jiren and ToP MUI Goku and even forcing a “current” (at that time) Gogeta to go SSJ Blue.

[Thani]

Yeah, the notion of Black can't master Goku's body gets proven false in both mediums.

Edit: Well, less so in the manga since Black never achieved completed Rose.

Speaking of which, I thought it was pretty funny that M. Zamasu was like "Stop using that outdated form in front of me, it's embarrassing!" when he saw Super Saiyan Blue............. All the while using Rosé that is exactly the same form, just pink.

I really don't like Zamasu in the manga. He got ruined in all his forms.

No doubt. He acts less like a knight templar and more like a psychopath as every DB villain, it's really disheartening. Black being reduced to an immature bully that whines whenever things don't go his way and doesn't even really plan ahead is really vexing to me.

[GodVegetto91]

Vegeta points out that Goku Black would never extract the best of Goku’s fighting potential, because he never experienced Goku’s battles. That actually makes him less impressive than Goku, if anything.

But even if he can’t do what Vegeta said, I think the anime missed the opportunity to introduce an interesting concept. It could be that whenever Goku got stronger, Goku Black’s body would receive that power through the time ring, making Goku Black always a step ahead, since he stole a future version of Goku.

Feats > Statements. And I have a strong feeling that SupremeKai25 is going to agree with me on this one.

[Miracles]

Yet the feat of Goku proves Vegeta's statement. That Black had no understanding of Goku's power since Black himself didn't build it through battle and only stole that strength. It was "secondhand!"

There is no way Black is replicating what Goku did, since Black, combined with Zamas, with a boost from the Patora, was overpowered and damaged. Goku was way out of Black's league in that final bout.

[TheSaiyanGod]

This is false, throughout the arc it is shown that Black gets stronger in an absolutely unique way.

And I'm not disputing that, I'm questioning the fact that the show treats it as if it were simply a Saiyan ability (to get stronger during battles), except that it's depicted in a totally wrong way, which has never been used before in the series. This would not be a problem if they address this by saying it was something unique to Black, but the fact that no character says anything about it only reinforces that this situation is treated normally.

There is no limit. Feats and statements make it clear. Black increased his strength beyond his own comprehension and tore a rift into reality itself (very astonishing feat). It was said that Fused Zamasu had infinite potential. The process reached its apex when Fused Zamasu's soul merged with the cosmos, becoming a 4th astral entity transcending all timelines, which required Zeno himself to step forward.

And yet Merged Zamasu never directly benefits from that ability. Because as I said it is just as inconsistent as all the other instances of Black power ups using this device

Using anger to grow massively stronger is completely normal, you have a problem with Black doing that but not with Gohan using his anger to go from Fodder to being able to kill Cell?

Gohan was not a "fodder", and anger has been his character since he was introduced. But I'm not saying I have a problem with Black using it (since ALL Saiyans also used), I have a problem with the plot discarding Black's "zenkais" whenever it's convenient or pretending that it never existed when he tries to use other methods to get stronger

Didn't Goku Black explicitly say himself that he was mastering Goku's body more as he fought and took damage?

From the sounds of it, it seems like it's more a case of him being able to draw out more power from his body via battle, particularly damage from strong opponents like Goku and Vegeta.

During episode 56, Black says that he completely mastered the power of Goku's body.

Spoiler:

The transformation into Super Saiyan Rosé is also supposed to represent that. Which means that any power up after that is just Black getting stronger and not him extracting more power of Goku's body