Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Khin]

^ Goku told Vegeta that they will train in the RoSaT for 3 years/days.Then Vegeta said something like "Why would you go that far ? [and then the close to the limits line]".

[LowRyder2005]

Arm strength wouldn't do any jack shit to Majin Boo since

Sure you will get stronger arm-strength wise.But overall power ? No.You can't probably beat some trained folks.

Gohan getting significantly stronger just by swing a sword a 1 day will be more ridiculous that Freeza/Tagoma's training gains in ROF.

Since this isn't the right place to discuss this.If you want to reply either create a new thread or go to thisThread

Uh... I don't feel the need to respond (in the sense, to address your points) at all, since you just backed everything up with interpretations - see quote - on what is supposed to make or not make sense here according to you, just like I did.
I simply answered because it looked like you wanted to know on what grounds I had based my Post-Z Sword SS2 Gohan > Majin Vegeta in a post about my personal impressions and I offered you some clarification.

Now, I already proved that there's room to think Gohan had drastically improved with the Z sword judging Goku's reactions too and comparing them to what he thought of SS2 Gohan facing Buu before his training. Not just Kaioshin's.
Just know that you are addressing scenes and excerpts from the manga that like I said suggest Gohan actually got to, say, Majin Vegeta's level. Not scenes that actually proved it.

The simple fact that Gohan got "stronger" - slightly or vastly is up to personal interpretation - is like said before pretty much unequivocal, though; nobody even remotely suggests the contrary, quite the opposite in fact.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

Super Power Levels!!!

Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Goten- 60,000,000

Trunks- 65,000,000

Tien- 37,000

Android 18- 310,000,000

Piccolo (weights)- 3,600,000,000

Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000

Gotenks- 900,000,000

(Ssj)- 45,000,000,000

Gohan (Mystic)- 500,000,000,000

King Vegeta- 10,000

Prince Vegeta- 11,000

Vegeta- 95,000,000

(Ssj)- 4,750,000,000

(Ssj2)- 19,000,000,000

(Enraged Ssj2)- 950,000,000,000



Goku- 100,000,000

(Ssj)- 5,000,000,000

(Ssj2)- 20,000,000,000

(Ssj3)- 50,000,000,000

(Ssj Energy Absorbed)- 10,000,000,000,000

(SsjG/80%)- 48,000,000,000,000

(SsjG/Max)- 60,000,000,000,000

(Post God)- 12,000,000,000,000

(Post God/Ssj)- 60,000,000,000,000

Beerus- 1,000,000,000,000

(70%)- 70,000,000,000,000

(Max)- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Resurrection F Arc

Spoiler:

Jaco the Galactic Patrolman- 1,500

Master Roshi (Intense Training)- 1,000

(Ultra)- 5,000

Tien- 42,000

Krillin (Intense Training)- 50,000

Piccolo (W/Weights)- 4,000,000,000

(W/out Weights)- 5,000,000,000

Gohan - 150,000,000

(Ssj)- 7,500,000,000



Frieza soldiers- 1,000

Sorbet- 2,500

Tagoma- 22,000

Shisami- 25,000

(Post Training W/Frieza)- 5,000,000,000

Frieza (1st form/revived)- 480,000

(1st form)- 53,000,000,000

(Final Form)- 10,000,000,000,000

(Golden)- 80,000,000,000,000

(Ki depleting)- 70,000,000,000,000

(Ki nearly gone)- 65,000,000,000,000



Goku (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000

Vegeta (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000

Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Champa Arc

Spoiler:

Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Champa- 95,000,000,000,000

Vados- 155,000,000,000,000



Piccolo- 5,600,000,000

Gohan- 500,000,000,000

Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000

Goku- 200,000,000

(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000

(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000

Vegeta- 200,000,000

(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000

(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000

Monaka- 90,000,000,000,000



Botamo- 40,000,000

Frost- 53,000,000

(Assault form)- 200,000,000

(Final Form)- 6,000,000,000

Magetta- 180,000,000

(Power Up)- 9,000,000,000

Kabe- 220,000,000

(Ssj)- 11,000,000,000

Hit- 200,000,000,000,000

[TheMikado]

Super Power Levels!!!

Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Goten- 60,000,000

Trunks- 65,000,000

Tien- 37,000

Android 18- 310,000,000

Piccolo (weights)- 3,600,000,000

Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000

Gotenks- 900,000,000

(Ssj)- 45,000,000,000

Gohan (Mystic)- 500,000,000,000

King Vegeta- 10,000

Prince Vegeta- 11,000

Vegeta- 95,000,000

(Ssj)- 4,750,000,000

(Ssj2)- 19,000,000,000

(Enraged Ssj2)- 950,000,000,000



Goku- 100,000,000

(Ssj)- 5,000,000,000

(Ssj2)- 20,000,000,000

(Ssj3)- 50,000,000,000

(Ssj Energy Absorbed)- 10,000,000,000,000

(SsjG/80%)- 48,000,000,000,000

(SsjG/Max)- 60,000,000,000,000

(Post God)- 12,000,000,000,000

(Post God/Ssj)- 60,000,000,000,000

Beerus- 1,000,000,000,000

(70%)- 70,000,000,000,000

(Max)- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Resurrection F Arc

Spoiler:

Jaco the Galactic Patrolman- 1,500

Master Roshi (Intense Training)- 1,000

(Ultra)- 5,000

Tien- 42,000

Krillin (Intense Training)- 50,000

Piccolo (W/Weights)- 4,000,000,000

(W/out Weights)- 5,000,000,000

Gohan - 150,000,000

(Ssj)- 7,500,000,000



Frieza soldiers- 1,000

Sorbet- 2,500

Tagoma- 22,000

Shisami- 25,000

(Post Training W/Frieza)- 5,000,000,000

Frieza (1st form/revived)- 480,000

(1st form)- 53,000,000,000

(Final Form)- 10,000,000,000,000

(Golden)- 80,000,000,000,000

(Ki depleting)- 70,000,000,000,000

(Ki nearly gone)- 65,000,000,000,000



Goku (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000

Vegeta (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000

Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Champa Arc

Spoiler:

Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Champa- 95,000,000,000,000

Vados- 155,000,000,000,000



Piccolo- 5,600,000,000

Gohan- 500,000,000,000

Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000

Goku- 200,000,000

(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000

(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000

Vegeta- 200,000,000

(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000

(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000

Monaka- 90,000,000,000,000



Botamo- 40,000,000

Frost- 53,000,000

(Assault form)- 200,000,000

(Final Form)- 6,000,000,000

Magetta- 180,000,000

(Power Up)- 9,000,000,000

Kabe- 220,000,000

(Ssj)- 11,000,000,000

Hit- 200,000,000,000,000

Maybe I'm not following why you have Goku and Vegeta getting substantially weaker in the Champa arc?

[JoeCapricorn]

And Hit being twice as strong as Beerus and more powerful than Vados?

Doubtful. Not entirely impossible but doubtful. We haven't seen enough of him to tell what his power level is. I'm thinking he's maybe around Golden Frieza level or a bit higher, but still lower than Beerus.

Cabba may be stronger in base than that - and I think his Super Saiyan form is at least over a trillion in your scale since in order for Vegeta to beat him he needed to go Super Saiyan Blue, which tells me that Cabba's regular Super Saiyan is beyond Vegeta's regular Super Saiyan.

Or Vegeta is showing him Super Bluper Saiyan.

Either way, Cabba shows immense potential and I really think he is going to become a Z fighter, or at least have an important role in whatever comes next. Plus, he is so cuuuuute! :3

[Bullza]

If he does end up being the main villain it adversary of this arc then I'd hope he'd be stronger than Golden Frieza.

I'm expecting something like this

Beerus > Champa > Hit > Monaca > SSJB Goku and Vegeta

[Khin]

For now,I'm betting that either Hit or Monaka will a villain and i think I'd be better if both Monaka and Hit are stronger than Beerus/Champa but weaker than Vados/Whis IMO.If Hit/Monaka will be weaker than Beerus.It would be easy to defeat him unless he pulls out a unique ability.

Vados : 15.2
Whis : 15

Monaka : 12
Hit : 12

Beerus : 10
Champa : 9.9

Blue Vegeta : 8.5
Blue Goku : 8.5

Best case scenario would be Vados also being a villain.That way,Whis doesn't end up one shotting Hit.

[Saturnine]

To be perfectly honest, what bothers me most is Tien at 37000. Like, seriously? Come on

Tien was always pretty close to Goku as long as Goku didn't get access to some overly efficient training method, such as King Kai's training. Also, Tien usually benefited way more than Goku from those trainings once he got access to them (both Kami and King Kai), partly because he was already stronger when starting them. But Goku only really left Tien in the dust after his gravity training, and then his "unfair" 33x Zenkai after healing on Namek. But when Goku and Tien were close and utilizing similar training methods, Tien always made gains comparable to Goku.

37 million would be more like it. Tien never stopped training throughout all of Z. That pays off. Also, the multiplier for Shin Kikoho would have to be even more exorbitant if Tien was to do anything to Cell with a powerlevel less than 37k.

[namekiansaiyan]

If he does end up being the main villain it adversary of this arc then I'd hope he'd be stronger than Golden Frieza.

I'm expecting something like this

Beerus > Champa > Hit > Monaca > SSJB Goku and Vegeta

For now,I'm betting that either Hit or Monaka will a villain and i think I'd be better if both Monaka and Hit are stronger than Beerus/Champa but weaker than Vados/Whis IMO.If Hit/Monaka will be weaker than Beerus.It would be easy to defeat him unless he pulls out a unique ability.

Vados : 15.2
Whis : 15

Monaka : 12
Hit : 12

Beerus : 10
Champa : 9.9

Blue Vegeta : 8.5
Blue Goku : 8.5

Best case scenario would be Vados also being a villain.That way,Whis doesn't end up one shotting Hit.

I think the main Villain is someone new, they come and take the Super Dragonballs and blow the planet up killing everyone one except Beerus' and Champa's teams because of Whis and Vados and then Universe 6 and 7 have to work together travelling universe 6 and 7.

[buutenks]

Super Power Levels!!!

Battle of Gods Arc

Spoiler:

Goten- 60,000,000

Trunks- 65,000,000

Tien- 37,000

Android 18- 310,000,000

Piccolo (weights)- 3,600,000,000

Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000

Gotenks- 900,000,000

(Ssj)- 45,000,000,000

Gohan (Mystic)- 500,000,000,000

King Vegeta- 10,000

Prince Vegeta- 11,000

Vegeta- 95,000,000

(Ssj)- 4,750,000,000

(Ssj2)- 19,000,000,000

(Enraged Ssj2)- 950,000,000,000



Goku- 100,000,000

(Ssj)- 5,000,000,000

(Ssj2)- 20,000,000,000

(Ssj3)- 50,000,000,000

(Ssj Energy Absorbed)- 10,000,000,000,000

(SsjG/80%)- 48,000,000,000,000

(SsjG/Max)- 60,000,000,000,000

(Post God)- 12,000,000,000,000

(Post God/Ssj)- 60,000,000,000,000

Beerus- 1,000,000,000,000

(70%)- 70,000,000,000,000

(Max)- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Resurrection F Arc

Spoiler:

Jaco the Galactic Patrolman- 1,500

Master Roshi (Intense Training)- 1,000

(Ultra)- 5,000

Tien- 42,000

Krillin (Intense Training)- 50,000

Piccolo (W/Weights)- 4,000,000,000

(W/out Weights)- 5,000,000,000

Gohan - 150,000,000

(Ssj)- 7,500,000,000



Frieza soldiers- 1,000

Sorbet- 2,500

Tagoma- 22,000

Shisami- 25,000

(Post Training W/Frieza)- 5,000,000,000

Frieza (1st form/revived)- 480,000

(1st form)- 53,000,000,000

(Final Form)- 10,000,000,000,000

(Golden)- 80,000,000,000,000

(Ki depleting)- 70,000,000,000,000

(Ki nearly gone)- 65,000,000,000,000



Goku (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000

Vegeta (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000

Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Champa Arc

Spoiler:

Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000

Whis- 150,000,000,000,000

Champa- 95,000,000,000,000

Vados- 155,000,000,000,000



Piccolo- 5,600,000,000

Gohan- 500,000,000,000

Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000

Goku- 200,000,000

(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000

(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000

Vegeta- 200,000,000

(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000

(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000

(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000

Monaka- 90,000,000,000,000



Botamo- 40,000,000

Frost- 53,000,000

(Assault form)- 200,000,000

(Final Form)- 6,000,000,000

Magetta- 180,000,000

(Power Up)- 9,000,000,000

Kabe- 220,000,000

(Ssj)- 11,000,000,000

Hit- 200,000,000,000,000

So many zeros, its making me dizzy lol

To be perfectly honest, what bothers me most is Tien at 37000. Like, seriously? Come on


37 million would be more like it. Tien never stopped training throughout all of Z. That pays off. Also, the multiplier for Shin Kikoho would have to be even more exorbitant if Tien was to do anything to Cell with a powerlevel less than 37k.

I agree, 37 k is way to low for tien to actually be able to stall cell. 37-50 mill sounds about right, if you say that the shin kikioho multiplies his Pl by say 10 or so, would boost it to 370-500 mil, and i doubt semi perfect cell is more than 600-700 mill.

That would also mean that by the buu saga krillin is definitely at 50% freeza's PL if yamcha's statement is correct about krillin being the strongest human, unless tien doesnt count.

[worrior_v1]

^ Goku told Vegeta that they will train in the RoSaT for 3 years/days.Then Vegeta said something like "Why would you go that far ? [and then the close to the limits line]".

ANYTHING could have happened in that training period, considering the history behind dragon ball, in ALL ROSAT training periods, immense power ups were achieved, and I think it is likely, given that it has been 3 years, that they have unlocked a new form.

It would explain their confidence in holding back significantly, and we will find out next episode if goku/vegeta don't react much to SSB, and/or statements are given about vegeta going all out against cabbe, etc.

[manwolf]

Beerus arc:

Spoiler:

Mistic Gohan: less that 8
Goku SSJ3: less that 9
Vegeta SSJ2 angry:9
Goku SSJG:60
Goku SSJ with god ki:60
Beeurs:100
Whis: 150

Freezer Arc

Spoiler:

Piccolo:less that 1
Gohan SSJ: less that 1
Freezer first Form: 3
Freezer Final Form: 23-26
Goku/Vegeta beyond God:1-26
Goku/Vegeta SSJGSSJ: 75
Golden Freezer: 70-80
Beeurs:100
Whis: 150

Champa Arc

Spoiler:

Botamo:3
First Form Frost:7
Piccolo: 2-60
Goku/Vegeta beyond God:1-28
Assault Form Frost:30
Final Form Forst: 60
Magetta:65
Goku/Vegeta SSJ beyond God: 70
Goku/Vegeta SSJGSSJ: 80
Champa:99
Beeurs:100
Whis: 150
Vados:151

[Khin]

manwolf : I think the gap between Golden Freeza and Blue Goku is way too small.I have them like this.

Blue Goku : 7
Golden Freeza : 8

SSj Goku and Final Form Frost's gap is also too small.Frost got wrecked completely by Goku.

ANYTHING could have happened in that training period, considering the history behind dragon ball, in ALL ROSAT training periods, immense power ups were achieved, and I think it is likely, given that it has been 3 years, that they have unlocked a new form.

It would explain their confidence in holding back significantly, and we will find out next episode if goku/vegeta don't react much to SSB, and/or statements are given about vegeta going all out against cabbe, etc.

It's unlikely for them to unlock a new form.It's been implied that the reason why they aren't going all out was because they don't want Hit to know there full power.So if Vegeta got a new form.He could just went Blue against Magetta and beats him faster than he did as a Super Saiyan.

[apex_pretador]

Tien was always pretty close to Goku

Only ONCE, and that was at 22nd TB, the first introduction of Tien.
In Daimao arc, it is obvious.
At 23td TB, Tien trained incredibly, incredibly, incredibly hard, with a drive to surpass goku. However, he still ended up being ONLY as strong as suppressed weighted goku. The power of Shen made it look like nothing, and the power of kami (his body) was vastly superior to that. The power of suppressed piccolo & goku (warming-up) made it look like nothing, and they weren't even close to the full power.
At BoZ, tien's full power was 250 , and goku (suppressed) was 416. Goku FP was around 924.
In Saiyan arc , Tien's arm was ripped off clean by a casual punch from nappa, and goku made nappa look like fool. Hell, Nappa flat-out tanked Kikoho.[/quote]

as long as Goku didn't get access to some overly efficient training method, such as King Kai's training. Also, Tien usually benefited way more than Goku from those trainings once he got access to them (both Kami and King Kai), partly because he was already stronger when starting them.
If we really only focus on manga only and put the guidebooks out of equation for a moment, then not necessarily. His increases (proportional to his starting power) aren't on the same level as goku's increases.
King kai training can't be debated because we don't know the results.
On Kami training, don't forget that he had 5 sparring partners of similar strength (arguably 6, if you count chiaotzu too), and that's not the case for kaio training.

OK, comparing Kami training for tien & goku, see:
Goku -> Not even close to popo, who isn't even close to Kami. Becomes so strong that Kami is 1-shot material.
Tien -> Not even close to BoZ goku, who isn't even close to Raditz. Becomes strong enough to easily beat Raditz, but probably not 1-shot material.

But Goku only really left Tien in the dust after his gravity training, and then his "unfair" 33x Zenkai after healing on Namek.

Goku also got several Zenkais on the way.

But when Goku and Tien were close and utilizing similar training methods, Tien always made gains comparable to Goku.

OK, but we don't know about Kaio training results.
Wait, unless I am missing something, Tien himself said that he will always be one-step behind goku if he follows the same training.

37 million would be more like it. Tien never stopped training throughout all of Z. That pays off. Also, the multiplier for Shin Kikoho would have to be even more exorbitant if Tien was to do anything to Cell with a powerlevel less than 37k.

Also, even if we assume that Tien can make gains comparable to goku in similar training schedule, then he can't be that high.
BoG base goku agrees with beerus that he can't beat freeza without transforming. So, he must be well below 100 million. Say 90 million at best.
This goku has 7 Years of kaio training to his name, which must've atleast provided 1.8x better gains than tien's regular training. (See how good his kaio training was in comparison to tien's KAMI training).
So, Tien can't be above 50 M
but that doesn't take into account of his 100g training & various Zenkais, which tien doesn't get. It increased goku from 8000 to 90,000
So, Tien can't be above 4.44 million

But then goku's huge 33x Zenkai
So, tien can't be above 134,000

Goku also entered RoSaT, which atleast 5x'd his power (2x Super vegeta, from weaker than imp cell)

So, tien can't be above 26,800
And this is not even including the fact that saiyans are supposed to grow better than humans, AND his 3 year training with piccolo and gohan AND his gains from buu arc to BoG.

See the point below this one for the kikoho thing.

To be perfectly honest, what bothers me most is Tien at 37000. Like, seriously? Come on


37 million would be more like it. Tien never stopped training throughout all of Z. That pays off. Also, the multiplier for Shin Kikoho would have to be even more exorbitant if Tien was to do anything to Cell with a powerlevel less than 37k.

I agree, 37 k is way to low for tien to actually be able to stall cell. 37-50 mill sounds about right, if you say that the shin kikioho multiplies his Pl by say 10 or so, would boost it to 370-500 mil, and i doubt semi perfect cell is more than 600-700 mill.

That would also mean that by the buu saga krillin is definitely at 50% freeza's PL if yamcha's statement is correct about krillin being the strongest human, unless tien doesnt count.

not possible. Tien was implied to be COMPLETELY USELESS against androids. If his one shin kikoho could've damaged an android significantly, he'd have definitely tried it against them, and wouldn't deem himself useless. The FACT is, he couldn't hurt #17 or #18 with it, and at best, could do what he did to semi-cell.

[Saturnine]

Well, I was thinking of Shin Kikoho as an amplification of anywhere from 100 to 1000x. Semi-Perfect Cell should be at around 2 billion in my opinion, which puts Tien anywhere from 200k to 2 million in power. Still works, still useless against the Androids, still able to stall Cell. The Kikoho itslef should be at around 0,85 of Cell's power to stall him but not do any damage.

Also, are we really arguing that BoG base Goku is below 100% Freeza? I always took that statement as more of a parallel than literally, as in Goku couldn't beat Freeza THEN in Base, and he needed Super Saiyan for that. But after the Buu saga? It would really be hard to accept as a literal statement. Though if that indeed was the case, I'll give it credit for making 50x work much better for SSj even in the late stages of the show. But then, what of FPSSj? If it incorporates USSj power then the multiplier would have to be 200x or something at full power :O

[apex_pretador]

Well, I was thinking of Shin Kikoho as an amplification of anywhere from 100 to 1000x. Semi-Perfect Cell should be at around 2 billion in my opinion, which puts Tien anywhere from 200k to 2 million in power. Still works, still useless against the Androids, still able to stall Cell.

Also, are we really arguing that BoG base Goku is below 100% Freeza? I always took that statement as more of a parallel than literally, as in Goku couldn't beat Freeza THEN in Base, and he needed Super Saiyan for that. But after the Buu saga? It would really be hard to accept as a literal statement.

goku AGREED. Goku did not say that he can beat freea, and knowing goku, he'd have said that if he thought he could.
Also, he considered buu impressive for killing 4 guys who can one-shot freeza.

[singsing]

Toriyama himself has said in his recent interviews http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... -comments/
that he uses characters as narration. And in EVERY SINGLE FORM OF MEDIA that that scene has appeared in, that statement has been in it. Why would they mindlessly repeat it over and over, with no contradiction, if we weren't supposed to take it at face value? We might as well accept nothing in DBZ at this point because someone somewhere might be lying somehow.

[HybridSaiyan]

You could only go in the HBTC twice right? Goku's been in it 4 times in total

1. Dragon Ball
2. Training for Cell
3. With Vegeta (Which was terrible)
4. With Uub

Also! Hasn't Goku already mastered the SSJ form? The mastered SSJ form couldn't defeat cell whereas a SSJ2 Gohan overpowered Cell easily.

No matter how you look at it, a SSJ2 should always be stronger than a SSJ. The transformation still increases his power level no matter how strong his base / SSJ was.

What's the use in the first Ascended forms then? Super / Ultra etc...

[Skar]

I realized something about Gohan and Piccolo training in Super. The U6 saga is supposed to be a sequel to both the movies and Super right? If they only trained together in anime but not in the movies or manga then that might they didn't improve all that much. I don't think it would make a lot of sense if Piccolo was vastly stronger only in the anime but not the manga since it didn't imply he trained there.

[HybridSaiyan]

I realized something about Gohan and Piccolo training in Super. The U6 saga is supposed to be a sequel to both the movies and Super right? If they only trained together in anime but not in the movies or manga then that might they didn't improve all that much. I don't think it would make a lot of sense if Piccolo was vastly stronger only in the anime but not the manga since it didn't imply he trained there.

Well the fact that Gohan is struggling against Piccolo in his base form is pretty bad writing in my opinion.
He was stronger than a SSJ3, the strongest unfused character by the end of the Buu Saga.
Now he's skinny and can't contain the SSJ for long?
GT did Gohan correctly lol.