Also why I agree wikis are not reliable, this time THEY DO give a source. That makes that info trustworthy.Kaboom wrote:A little late, but is this attitude really necessary? I've been noticing some hostility in your posts as of late. Please try to chill and keep things shonen, especially when discussing something as subjective and irrelevant in the long run as fan-made power levels.TheMightyOzaru wrote:I don't give a crap. Never use Dragon Ball Wiki, it's a disgrace.
Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
It's misinterpreted though. He's credited as the author of Dragon Ball, not the creator of GT. GT was made by a bunch of people in Toei. Toriyama's involvement had nothing to do with the story either.Zombie wrote:
Also why I agree wikis are not reliable, this time THEY DO give a source. That makes that info trustworthy.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
It would still be better to tell someone why something shouldn't be trusted. We as Kanzenshuuians know the terrible downfalls of DBWiki, but many other people around the internet don't, and they think it's made by the best of fans who have done the research and put in the time and effort to give unbiased, accurate information (like the real Wikipedia, go figure). Instead of replying with "Don't do that![/anger]," you'd get more bang for your buck by calling out the bullshit you see on the page and use that as an example for why you think the information is bogus. Pulling a pissy attitude will get you next to nowhere with anyone you're trying to have a civilized discussion with.dbzfan7 wrote:It's misinterpreted though. He's credited as the author of Dragon Ball, not the creator of GT. GT was made by a bunch of people in Toei. Toriyama's involvement had nothing to do with the story either.Zombie wrote:
Also why I agree wikis are not reliable, this time THEY DO give a source. That makes that info trustworthy.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
So, here is Dragon Ball GT.
Just to be clear, I don't go by base GT Goku > SS3 Z Goku. GT, like with the movies, portray Super Saiyan forms as small boosts of base (we have villains that cause trouble to Super Saiyans having a fight with base Saiyans). We also have inconsistent stuff like SS4 Goku >>>>> SS Goku > SS Vegeta > Oozaru Vegeta > SS4 Goku > SS4 Vegeta >>>> Oozaru Vegeta. So, fuck their logic. I'll go by this head-canon: The story of GT (meaning the series we watched) was narrated by Pan to Goku Jr., and thus, there were some mistakes in her story. These mistakes are the following: Goku used Super Saiyan 3 against Oob in the beginning, Super Saiyan 2 against Rild (who was playing around), Super Saiyan against SS Gohan & Goten, and Super Saiyan 2 against Freeza & Cell.
I'll do the rest of the anime some time (fillers & TV Specials) later.
Multipliers:
Just to be clear, I don't go by base GT Goku > SS3 Z Goku. GT, like with the movies, portray Super Saiyan forms as small boosts of base (we have villains that cause trouble to Super Saiyans having a fight with base Saiyans). We also have inconsistent stuff like SS4 Goku >>>>> SS Goku > SS Vegeta > Oozaru Vegeta > SS4 Goku > SS4 Vegeta >>>> Oozaru Vegeta. So, fuck their logic. I'll go by this head-canon: The story of GT (meaning the series we watched) was narrated by Pan to Goku Jr., and thus, there were some mistakes in her story. These mistakes are the following: Goku used Super Saiyan 3 against Oob in the beginning, Super Saiyan 2 against Rild (who was playing around), Super Saiyan against SS Gohan & Goten, and Super Saiyan 2 against Freeza & Cell.
I'll do the rest of the anime some time (fillers & TV Specials) later.
Spoiler:
- Golden Oozaru - base x40.000
Super Saiyan 4 - base x3.400.000
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
But that is more than proven.Just to be clear, I don't go by base GT Goku > SS3 Z Goku.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I know, I just don't care. It's an inconsistency, a plot-hole, and false in general.Zombie wrote:But that is more than proven.Just to be clear, I don't go by base GT Goku > SS3 Z Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Because he accepts Z bullshit but not GT bullshit.Zombie wrote:But that is more than proven.Just to be clear, I don't go by base GT Goku > SS3 Z Goku.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
OK, what's wrong with you? Stop bringing your rage from other debates. We are not fighting, and we are not enemies. We are fellow forum members, and we should be civil to each other.dbzfan7 wrote:Because he accepts Z bullshit but not GT bullshit.
I don't accept bullshit that can't have a logical explanation IMO. Goku getting over x400 stronger in base after teaching a little kid how to fight for 5 years just to have a big fight in the end doesn't make any sense to me. If he had gotten the Ultimate power-up, he wouldn't be able to transform, and if he had kept the power of Super Saiyan God from BoG, the difference between his transformations would be insignificant (and maybe even non-existent). Piccolo getting nearly x100 stronger after 5 years makes sense IMO, because he had just merged with another charismatic Namekian, which made his dormant power skyrocket, and he sparred for 3 years with a Super Saiyan, which made his power to skyrocket.
I have an explanation that makes sense in my head for Piccolo (or anything else). Do you have a logical explanation for GT Goku?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Why not. Trust try harder and I'm sure you can explain it too.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:OK, what's wrong with you? Stop bringing your rage from other debates. We are not fighting, and we are not enemies. We are fellow forum members, and we should be civil to each other.dbzfan7 wrote:Because he accepts Z bullshit but not GT bullshit.
I don't accept bullshit that can't have a logical explanation IMO. Goku getting over x400 stronger in base after teaching a little kid how to fight for 5 years just to have a big fight in the end doesn't make any sense to me. If he had gotten the Ultimate power-up, he wouldn't be able to transform, and if he had kept the power of Super Saiyan God from BoG, the difference between his transformations would be insignificant (and maybe even non-existent). Piccolo getting nearly x100 stronger after 5 years makes sense IMO, because he had just merged with another charismatic Namekian, which made his dormant power skyrocket, and he sparred for 3 years with a Super Saiyan, which made his power to skyrocket.
I have an explanation that makes sense in my head for Piccolo (or anything else). Do you have a logical explanation for GT Goku?
Simple training gains. That's all you need to explain it. It's already been demonstrated that fighting an opponent that's stronger than you brings huge gains. So logically the same can be done for Goku. If we can have Vegeta magically get stronger because he was really angry, I don't see a problem with Base Goku GT>SSJ3 Goku. Just like Vegeta, that's just how it works. You wanna not include it in, that's fine. But your list gets rid of what is stated and is automatically wrong.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Thing is, Goku's gains are far from doubling his power after 17 years of hard training, and for those 5 year with Oob, they weren't sparring all the time. He was teaching him how to fight, so that they could fight in the very end.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
In your opinion. Dragon Ball does this all the time. Goku could easily get a staggering increase from someone who is SSJ3 level. Piccolo already did it and Goku is far more talented. Vegeta breaks logic when he makes his SSJ2 form stronger than his SSJ3 forms power. Amplification isn't so simple or else guys like Freeza and Jr should have died after the amplified attacks they went through.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Thing is, Goku's gains are far from doubling his power after 17 years of hard training, and for those 5 year with Oob, they weren't sparring all the time. He was teaching him how to fight, so that they could fight in the very end.
Though to me amplifications are far more bullshit than any training gains.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Exactly. In my opinion, such gains are not possible through normal means & such short time.dbzfan7 wrote:In your opinion.
But Goku isn't merged with anyone, and he has reached his peak as well. And Goku & Piccolo seem to be equally talented, which is why they were rivals.dbzfan7 wrote:Piccolo already did it and Goku is far more talented.
Makes more sense to me than GT Goku. It has a logical (IMO) explanation, while Goku having such gains isn't logical, nor is explained.dbzfan7 wrote:Vegeta breaks logic when he makes his SSJ2 form stronger than his SSJ3 forms power.
Of course it's not simple, Vegeta managed to accidentally do this after years of extreme training.dbzfan7 wrote:Amplification isn't so simple or else guys like Freeza and Jr should have died after the amplified attacks they went through.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I don'tthink merging had anything to do with Piccolo's massive gains. I believe it was just training with an SSJ that did that.But Goku isn't merged with anyone, and he has reached his peak as well. And Goku & Piccolo seem to be equally talented, which is why they were rivals.
I think just training with a really powerful opponent is enough while magical amplication that's never been that ridiculous (excluding Gohan rage boosts) is ludicrousMakes more sense to me than GT Goku. It has a logical (IMO) explanation, while Goku having such gains isn't logical, nor is explained.
And IMO it doesn't make sense for someone to amplify their power beyond SSJ3 like that as the only thing remotely close is Gohan's rage boost which has been shown since the beginning. Vegeta's boost is random and completely out of nowhere.Of course it's not simple, Vegeta managed to accidentally do this after years of extreme training.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
OK, let's just agree that we disagree here as well. Arguing about opinions won't get us anywhere.
To end all this, I don't consider the anime (fillers, movies, GT, OVA, Specials) as a reliable source for feats & power statements. They have made Mutaito stronger than Mutaito, Oozaru Vegeta stronger than SS4 Goku, and SS3 Goku stronger than Gohan Boo. And no, these are not typos. They are inconsistencies in the anime, which I won't follow.
To end all this, I don't consider the anime (fillers, movies, GT, OVA, Specials) as a reliable source for feats & power statements. They have made Mutaito stronger than Mutaito, Oozaru Vegeta stronger than SS4 Goku, and SS3 Goku stronger than Gohan Boo. And no, these are not typos. They are inconsistencies in the anime, which I won't follow.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
So why didn't Gohan get super-mega strong?dbzfan7 wrote:I don'tthink merging had anything to do with Piccolo's massive gains. I believe it was just training with an SSJ that did that.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Alright. I'll apologize for my outburst as well. I'm also at fault for being selective at times.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:OK, let's just agree that we disagree here as well. Arguing about opinions won't get us anywhere.
To end all this, I don't consider the anime (fillers, movies, GT, OVA, Specials) as a reliable source for feats & power statements. They have made Mutaito stronger than Mutaito, Oozaru Vegeta stronger than SS4 Goku, and SS3 Goku stronger than Gohan Boo. And no, these are not typos. They are inconsistencies in the anime, which I won't follow.
Probably because he wasn't training as seriously and time wasn't focused on him as much. In the ROSAT the training was dedicated to him and even in the future when he trained seriously on his own he didn't get super strong. But that's my theory as Gohan isn't even noteworthy at this point.Rocketman wrote:So why didn't Gohan get super-mega strong?
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
You could try the "RSSJ"(Need to find a better name) theory. Nothing contradicts it, and it would explain why base Goku fares so well against certain opponents in the movies and anime in his base form. Just use a 1.1-9.9x increase for that and you're golden(Well not really 
). I have base GT Goku at 3,600,000,000 at the start of GT. As to why Vegeta is so strong, Vegeta does have a ton of hidden potential, as displayed in Battle of Gods. Just say he figured out how to use it in that 5 year gap, and that's why he's close-ish to Goku.
). I have base GT Goku at 3,600,000,000 at the start of GT. As to why Vegeta is so strong, Vegeta does have a ton of hidden potential, as displayed in Battle of Gods. Just say he figured out how to use it in that 5 year gap, and that's why he's close-ish to Goku.Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
TheMightyOzaru wrote: You could try the "RSSJ"(Need to find a better name) theory. Nothing contradicts it, and it would explain why base Goku fares so well against certain opponents in the movies and anime in his base form. Just use a 1.1-9.9x increase for that and you're golden(Well not really
Nah, I don't like it. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'll just not put lots of thought to it.
But it is implied in the movie that Vegeta's power was amplified, not that he drew any hidden power...TheMightyOzaru wrote:As to why Vegeta is so strong, Vegeta does have a ton of hidden potential, as displayed in Battle of Gods. Just say he figured out how to use it in that 5 year gap, and that's why he's close-ish to Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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TheMightyOzaru
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Where did that power come from if it wasn't hidden....? It's clear that Vegeta has a lot more potential that we thought.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:TheMightyOzaru wrote: You could try the "RSSJ"(Need to find a better name) theory. Nothing contradicts it, and it would explain why base Goku fares so well against certain opponents in the movies and anime in his base form. Just use a 1.1-9.9x increase for that and you're golden(Well not really
Nah, I don't like it. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'll just not put lots of thought to it.
But it is implied in the movie that Vegeta's power was amplified, not that he drew any hidden power...TheMightyOzaru wrote:As to why Vegeta is so strong, Vegeta does have a ton of hidden potential, as displayed in Battle of Gods. Just say he figured out how to use it in that 5 year gap, and that's why he's close-ish to Goku.
Vegeta: "Funny... I seem to recall Kakarot being fed the same information right before he transformed; the distinct look on your faces when he went Super Saiyan didn't exactly inspire confidence. One does not predict or calculate power like ours."
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
According to Goku, Vegeta forced himself to get stronger so much, that he used all of his power at once, which drained all of his ki at once. Which means that his power was amplified, like it happens with techniques like Kamehameha, Final Flash, Makankosappo, and Kaio-ken. So it's something like a technique. Besides, Gohan's ki was never drained when he had rage boosts, so it's obvious that they are different things.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.