"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

That's because a victory like that is a "simple" easy to write and potentially very unsatisfying victory. We already had that in the Frieza arc, so what worth is there in doing that again?

The problem now is that the heroes needing outside help is predictable, as that's all we've gotten up to this point.

Goku lost to Beerus.
Whis had to help them with Freeza.
Goku surrendered against Hit.
Zeno killed Zamasu.
Goku needed Freeza's help to ring out Jiren.
Goku and Vegeta needed to fuse to beat Broly.

After 6 stories, isn't it time for a classic one on one fight where Goku just wins without anyone's help ? I think it is. Personally, I don't think it'll happen here, but it's long overdue.

[Kinokima]

That's because a victory like that is a "simple" easy to write and potentially very unsatisfying victory. We already had that in the Frieza arc, so what worth is there in doing that again?

The problem now is that the heroes needing outside help is predictable, as that's all we've gotten up to this point.

Goku lost to Beerus.
Whis had to help them with Freeza.
Goku surrendered against Hit.
Zeno killed Zamasu.
Goku needed Freeza's help to ring out Jiren.
Goku and Vegeta needed to fuse to beat Broly.

After 6 stories, isn't it time for a classic one on one fight where Goku just wins without anyone's help ? I think it is. Personally, I don't think it'll happen here, but it's long overdue.

I’d argue that Goku DID win against Hit. Yes not directly but it was Goku jumping out that made Hit surrender in the end. It was Goku’s character that won the tournament for U7

I know a lot of people write off the U6 arc but to me it had the most satisfying conclusion of the 3 Super arcs.


Anyways I don’t really feel this arc was built up as 1:1 fight of Goku vs Moro. While it’s true it hasn’t been done in awhile I personally wouldn’t find it thematically satisfying here.

[Matches Malone]

I’d argue that Goku DID win against Hit. Yes not directly but it was Goku jumping out that made Hit surrender in the end. It was Goku’s character that won the tournament for U7

What made Goku surrender was Hit's inability to fight seriously due to his techniques being against tournament rules, which makes for an underwhelming fight, as we never got to see Hit's full capabilities.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I’d argue that Goku DID win against Hit. Yes not directly but it was Goku jumping out that made Hit surrender in the end. It was Goku’s character that won the tournament for U7

What made Goku surrender was Hit's inability to fight seriously due to his techniques being against tournament rules, which makes for an underwhelming fight, as we never got to see Hit's full capabilities.

Goku threw the match because he wanted to see what Monaka could do. In de facto terms, Goku won that fight all ends up, and it's possibly the most straightforward win he's had against a main antagonist in all of Dragon Ball; he didn't get beaten and need to come back stronger, he didn't need to pluck out a new transformation or technique to get the upper hand - he just used what he already had cleverly, and left his opponent helpless.

The fact that you found it underwhelming probably speaks in favour of Dragon Wukong's original point that a straightforward win is an unsatisfying victory (and mine earlier, that it's less engaging to see that kind of interaction in a serialised format - it works okay in the Universe 6 arc, just like in the older tournament arcs, since the stakes are so low). So maybe it's just as well that you don't see it very often elsewhere.

[Matches Malone]

The fact that you found it underwhelming probably speaks in favour of Dragon Wukong's original point that a straightforward win is an unsatisfying victory.

It was underwhelming because Hit couldn't go all out, as he himself told Goku. Look at Goku's victories against Piccolo Jr. and Freeza, both of which were straightforward, yet very satisfying. Look at Vegeta's victory on earth, Goku and his friends threw everything at him yet he kept coming back, and he did so without any outside help. Gohan's victory against Cell is another example, sure he had slight outside help, but overall it was his sole victory.

[Magnificent Ponta]

The fact that you found it underwhelming probably speaks in favour of Dragon Wukong's original point that a straightforward win is an unsatisfying victory.

It was underwhelming because Hit couldn't go all out, as he himself told Goku. Look at Goku's victories against Piccolo Jr. and Freeza, both of which were straightforward, yet very satisfying. Look at Vegeta's victory on earth, Goku and his friends threw everything at him yet he kept coming back, and he did so without any outside help. Gohan's victory against Cell is another example, sure he had slight outside help, but overall it was his sole victory.

I guess your feeling on what is 'straightforward' isn't mine - while Goku doesn't have help to beat Piccolo Jr., I wouldn't call it a straightforward win - he had to rescue the imprisoned Kami, in the first place, and there were also twists on how he won - he got blasted through the chest when off-guard and then got immobilised, and had to pull out a surprise move in the end to win against an exhausted opponent.

A straightforward win would be one like he got against Chi-Chi or Tenshinhan: two fighters clash, one fighter is stronger/better, stronger/better fighter wins because of that. That's fine on the journey (which is why it tends to happen with fodder/scrubs), but at the climax, it's underwhelming. I'd say the fight with Piccolo is satisfying because it isn't straightforward, but rather introduces a set of hurdles and twists Goku has to clear before he nets the win. It's the same with all the other examples you mentioned - just to pick one at random, if Gohan's win against Cell had been really straightforward, Cell would've died when Goku told Gohan to kill him. Instead, there's a self-destruct, a re-emergence, a critical injury to the hero and an assist from Goku (in spirit) and Vegeta (in opportunity) in the middle of all that before Gohan wins.

Really, Super's just continuing a pattern set by Dragon Ball (and most other serialised action comics, I would suppose) in that respect. Even if by 'straightforward' you just mean specifically 'unassisted victory against the big bad', Dragon Ball hasn't had one of those since Raditz showed up, arguably (or since Goku came home from Namek, certainly, if you want to stretch the idea of an 'unassisted victory' a little by only referring to the post-transformation showdown - the middle of the Freeza fight is very much assisted, however futilely). But what actual advantage would it confer on Super to start doing that now?

[Matches Malone]

I guess your feeling on what is 'straightforward' isn't mine.

What I meant by straightforward is just one on one, not an easy victory. When you look at Goku's fight with Freeza's fight, it was full of twists and turns of both one upping each other with different tactics. That's the kind of fight I'd like to see again.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I guess your feeling on what is 'straightforward' isn't mine.

What I meant by straightforward is just one on one, not an easy victory. When you look at Goku's fight with Freeza's fight, it was full of twists and turns of both one upping each other with different tactics. That's the kind of fight I'd like to see again.

Well, I can't fault you for liking what you like, and you never know; you might get to see that in this arc.

But since one of Super's stand-out themes so far is that Goku and Vegeta in particular are much stronger together than they are apart (and their attempts to resist this conclusion invariably lead towards calamity), if it did happen that way, I personally would find it kind of weird unless it were done specifically in service of opening up a new development that, itself, needed resolving.

[DiscountDabi]

You know Toyotarou could have used the Moro arc to introduce Blue Kaioken. Seems like something Goku would have come up with. Moro Drains energy so when he starts to steal your power start stacking Kaioken so you don’t get drastically weaker. Obviously this wouldn’t beat Moro but neither did Omen and I think this is the better option narratively

[Magnificent Ponta]

You know Toyotarou could have used the Moro arc to introduce Blue Kaioken. Seems like something Goku would have come up with. Moro Drains energy so when he starts to steal your power start stacking Kaioken so you don’t get drastically weaker. Obviously this wouldn’t beat Moro but neither did Omen and I think this is the better option narratively

But wouldn't that have been a significant retrograde step?

Goku already used something specifically compared to Kaio-Ken to attack Jiren with (didn't V-Jump or something even call it Blue Kaio-Ken?), and got nothing from it but the revelation that his attacks were much less effective than the extra ki power should've made them, since the attempt was so damaging to him.

Trying something like that just to amp a dwindling power seems worse than pointless when his actual arc is towards using something much more effective than what he can do with his ordinary ki power.

[Matches Malone]

Since one of Super's stand-out themes so far is that Goku and Vegeta in particular are much stronger together than they are apart.

For this particular arc, I'd prefer to see Goku and Vegeta get a team win, but moving forward I'd like to see a classic one on one fight.

[Kinokima]

Since one of Super's stand-out themes so far is that Goku and Vegeta in particular are much stronger together than they are apart.

For this particular arc, I'd prefer to see Goku and Vegeta get a team win, but moving forward I'd like to see a classic one on one fight.

I think another Goku solo win would be great too but thematically it doesn’t fit this particular arc for me and I would be a bit disappointed if that was the ending.

However I wouldn’t dislike it as much as Goku/Freeza team up in the Anime TOP or Zeno erasing everything so there is that

[ssj3kakarot]

I think a 1v1 Goku fight where Goku wins against Moro is needed and largely hinted at by Merus.

I dont think that we will get that though, as others have mentioned, it doesn't follow the theme that Super has been handing us. But with Merus saying that if Goku goes MUI, no enemey will stand against him, if Goku doesn't get the 1v1 over Moro, than wtf, ya know? Why have Merus give us that line only for it to mean nothing?

It follows if Goku goes MUI than he should win 1v1 against Moro. So maybe he goes MUI but can't maintain, but even that is so overplayed with the "stamina" issues that forms have these days.

But if Goku does win, then I feel they didnt follow the forshadowing of Vegeta and being able to defuse people.

Guess just gonna watch and see what actually happens.

[LoganForkHands73]

I’d argue that Goku DID win against Hit. Yes not directly but it was Goku jumping out that made Hit surrender in the end. It was Goku’s character that won the tournament for U7

I know a lot of people write off the U6 arc but to me it had the most satisfying conclusion of the 3 Super arcs.


Anyways I don’t really feel this arc was built up as 1:1 fight of Goku vs Moro. While it’s true it hasn’t been done in awhile I personally wouldn’t find it thematically satisfying here.

I've really come to appreciate the U6 arc and I agree that it has a very satisfying conclusion, very close to the Universe Survival arc for me personally. I find that it works perfectly because it demonstrates the strength of character of both Goku and Hit. Goku getting frustrated with Beerus and Champa's squabbling to the point that he purposefully rings himself was very ballsy and a classically unpredictable move for him, but it shows his sheer easygoing nature that he doesn't even care if he technically lost, because everyone knows he clearly had Hit's number and wants to see his full potential in battle. Hit willingly allowing Monaka to take the credit for knocking him out is one of the best "Chekhov's Gun" joke moments I've ever seen and establishes Hit as more than just a ruthless assassin but a truly honourable warrior (with a sense of humour). That was the moment when I became properly interested in seeing more of Goku and Hit's relationship.

[Tai Lung]

Goku technically beat jiren in the anime with UI and at least had other major fights with kefla meanwhile jiren defeated goku ui and didn't have any TOP win against anyone ...

The fact that you found it underwhelming probably speaks in favour of Dragon Wukong's original point that a straightforward win is an unsatisfying victory.

It was underwhelming because Hit couldn't go all out, as he himself told Goku. Look at Goku's victories against Piccolo Jr. and Freeza, both of which were straightforward, yet very satisfying. Look at Vegeta's victory on earth, Goku and his friends threw everything at him yet he kept coming back, and he did so without any outside help. Gohan's victory against Cell is another example, sure he had slight outside help, but overall it was his sole victory.

I guess your feeling on what is 'straightforward' isn't mine - while Goku doesn't have help to beat Piccolo Jr., I wouldn't call it a straightforward win - he had to rescue the imprisoned Kami, in the first place, and there were also twists on how he won - he got blasted through the chest when off-guard and then got immobilised, and had to pull out a surprise move in the end to win against an exhausted opponent.

A straightforward win would be one like he got against Chi-Chi or Tenshinhan: two fighters clash, one fighter is stronger/better, stronger/better fighter wins because of that. That's fine on the journey (which is why it tends to happen with fodder/scrubs), but at the climax, it's underwhelming. I'd say the fight with Piccolo is satisfying because it isn't straightforward, but rather introduces a set of hurdles and twists Goku has to clear before he nets the win. It's the same with all the other examples you mentioned - just to pick one at random, if Gohan's win against Cell had been really straightforward, Cell would've died when Goku told Gohan to kill him. Instead, there's a self-destruct, a re-emergence, a critical injury to the hero and an assist from Goku (in spirit) and Vegeta (in opportunity) in the middle of all that before Gohan wins.

Really, Super's just continuing a pattern set by Dragon Ball (and most other serialised action comics, I would suppose) in that respect. Even if by 'straightforward' you just mean specifically 'unassisted victory against the big bad', Dragon Ball hasn't had one of those since Raditz showed up, arguably (or since Goku came home from Namek, certainly, if you want to stretch the idea of an 'unassisted victory' a little by only referring to the post-transformation showdown - the middle of the Freeza fight is very much assisted, however futilely). But what actual advantage would it confer on Super to start doing that now?

goku against hit, if goku had won it would have been against someone who was not fighting seriously due to the rules so it would not have meant anything

[FishermanJohnWest]

I think a 1v1 Goku fight where Goku wins against Moro is needed and largely hinted at by Merus.

I dont think that we will get that though, as others have mentioned, it doesn't follow the theme that Super has been handing us. But with Merus saying that if Goku goes MUI, no enemey will stand against him, if Goku doesn't get the 1v1 over Moro, than wtf, ya know? Why have Merus give us that line only for it to mean nothing?

It follows if Goku goes MUI than he should win 1v1 against Moro. So maybe he goes MUI but can't maintain, but even that is so overplayed with the "stamina" issues that forms have these days.

But if Goku does win, then I feel they didnt follow the forshadowing of Vegeta and being able to defuse people.

Guess just gonna watch and see what actually happens.

Vegeta got to a technique to deal with fusions, yet lost to a fusion -.-

Regardless he will do something in the next chapter but like the Jiren fight or Zamasu fight or Frieza fight, he will get the left over's after Goku fought the enemy and lost cause either a cheap trick or he burnt out, and Vegeta will still fail which then will lead to a third party option being involved.

[TKA]

I've known the chapter was out since the day it was... out. But I just never felt a burning desire to get to it right away. Well, finally decided to get it out of the way.

I am still not whelmed.

A character introduced in this arc just died in this arc and it's meant to be a big emotional thing. That's Naruto filler/movie plot beats. I don't care about Merus enough for this chapter to mean anything to me. It was all decently-written, but the context of everything (this arc essentially being filler, Merus being around for couple dozen pages as opposed to the hundreds and thousands other characters have been around for, and so on) makes this about as impactful as a wet sponge.

I also don't like that all these abilities were given to Moro and then the real star of this arc (Merus) shut those powers down. That's basically a deus ex machina (literally, even, since an actual angel came out of nowhere and resolved the major issues).

This arc continues to be the nadir of the Super manga (and I must, again, stress that even the nadir of the manga is better than the zenith of the anime).

[DevilKing99]

I’d argue that Goku DID win against Hit. Yes not directly but it was Goku jumping out that made Hit surrender in the end. It was Goku’s character that won the tournament for U7

I know a lot of people write off the U6 arc but to me it had the most satisfying conclusion of the 3 Super arcs.


Anyways I don’t really feel this arc was built up as 1:1 fight of Goku vs Moro. While it’s true it hasn’t been done in awhile I personally wouldn’t find it thematically satisfying here.

I've really come to appreciate the U6 arc and I agree that it has a very satisfying conclusion, very close to the Universe Survival arc for me personally. I find that it works perfectly because it demonstrates the strength of character of both Goku and Hit. Goku getting frustrated with Beerus and Champa's squabbling to the point that he purposefully rings himself was very ballsy and a classically unpredictable move for him, but it shows his sheer easygoing nature that he doesn't even care if he technically lost, because everyone knows he clearly had Hit's number and wants to see his full potential in battle. Hit willingly allowing Monaka to take the credit for knocking him out is one of the best "Chekhov's Gun" joke moments I've ever seen and establishes Hit as more than just a ruthless assassin but a truly honourable warrior (with a sense of humour). That was the moment when I became properly interested in seeing more of Goku and Hit's relationship.

The U6 arc is directly responsible for the top arc though lol and the eventually planet Sadala arc.

It's responsible for the Broly movie to because Freeza would have never been brought back for the top arc as well.

Not to mention what ever it is they are going to with U6 Earth.

[SupremeKai25]

I’d argue that Goku DID win against Hit. Yes not directly but it was Goku jumping out that made Hit surrender in the end. It was Goku’s character that won the tournament for U7

I know a lot of people write off the U6 arc but to me it had the most satisfying conclusion of the 3 Super arcs.


Anyways I don’t really feel this arc was built up as 1:1 fight of Goku vs Moro. While it’s true it hasn’t been done in awhile I personally wouldn’t find it thematically satisfying here.

I've really come to appreciate the U6 arc and I agree that it has a very satisfying conclusion, very close to the Universe Survival arc for me personally. I find that it works perfectly because it demonstrates the strength of character of both Goku and Hit. Goku getting frustrated with Beerus and Champa's squabbling to the point that he purposefully rings himself was very ballsy and a classically unpredictable move for him, but it shows his sheer easygoing nature that he doesn't even care if he technically lost, because everyone knows he clearly had Hit's number and wants to see his full potential in battle. Hit willingly allowing Monaka to take the credit for knocking him out is one of the best "Chekhov's Gun" joke moments I've ever seen and establishes Hit as more than just a ruthless assassin but a truly honourable warrior (with a sense of humour). That was the moment when I became properly interested in seeing more of Goku and Hit's relationship.

The U6 arc is directly responsible for the top arc though lol and the eventually planet Sadala arc.

It's responsible for the Broly movie to because Freeza would have never been brought back for the top arc as well.

Not to mention what ever it is they are going to with U6 Earth.

It's also responsible for the Future Trunks arc, since Zamasu learned about the Super Dragon Balls from watching the Goku vs. Hit fight. It's very fascinating how the storyline of Dragon Ball Super is all inter-connected.

[Kinokima]

The eventual Sadala arc...I've given up hope