TheSaiyanGod wrote: ↑Thu Jul 29, 2021 12:20 am
HeroR wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:37 pm
Not really because he only moved once if we say the movies are Toriyama's version and that seemed to happened because of the Super anime which removed the line of Goku and Vegeta together could beat Beerus along with the 70% line. And in the anime, the only time you can say they 'moved Beerus' was him being stunned when he saw Blue Kaioken x10. But even in that same arc two episodes later, Beerus mocked Goku for being unable to do crap against the gods when Champa was going to murder his team. Which told us Blue Kaioken while it shocked Beerus wasn't in the same league of power. Which makes sense since it was more Beerus going, 'was he always this strong'.
If you only consider the movies then Beerus moved 3 times (he went from being forced to use 70% of his power against SSG Goku to needing Goku and Vegeta in even stronger forms to defeat him, and then a guy who faced a post-ToP Blue Fusion was said to be only "probably" stronger than him).
And even though he acted like he could easily defeat SSB KK x10 Goku in the anime, it's weird that he was surprised when we saw that a heavily suppressed Jiren (GoD level) treated an even stronger Goku using Blue KK x20 as a joke later. And even in the anime there isn't a single line comparing UI Goku with Beerus. Of course, through the scaling you deduce that Goku would have surpassed Beerus but they literally pretend this doesn't exist when surpassing him has always been treated as a big deal (with all the oracle fish prophecy about Goku and him). It's just like glossed over and if you consider the Broly movie as a continuation to the anime continuity you see that Beerus being surpassed wasn't Toriyama's intention because he also doesn't definitely put Broly above him either, with Goku literally saying he was sure of his strength but then Broly appeared (this is all after Jiren and UI) and treating the fact of surpassing Beerus as a big deal.
HeroR wrote: ↑Wed Jul 28, 2021 11:37 pm
We actually don't know how Broly compares to Jiren because the fact is we can only scale Broly to Gogeta. Goku was nerfed in the Broly movie because he didn't have UI even if we ignore Blue Kaioken or Completed Blue and we don't have a clue how much stronger Goku is compared to how he was in the TOP. That and Broly for all his power has lousy feats because he beat Golden Frieza for closed to an hour and Frieza was able to remain in gold and conscious, while Toppo one-shotted Golden Frieza and later knocked him out. We then have Jiren later on without trying two touch Frieza out of gold. Even in the manga Berserk Kale did more to Frieza even if we take Frieza 'I was off-guard' statement seriously. That and using statements Broly was 'probably' stronger than Broly while Jiren was outright stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction from several sources from the anime, manga, and promotion material. Even if we say Whis was teasing and Bemond wasn't stronger than Beerus or we used the manga where Jiren was only confirmed stronger than Belmond, all sources more or less put all the gods relative. In short, there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren.
I don't know why Golden Freeza is relevant here when Broly wasn't even in his strongest form (and this is the same movie that had Base Goku facing Ikari Broly).
And I mean, If you want to consider promotional material then Broly is also said to be the stronger than a GoD and more than that, he is outright said to be the strongest antagonist.
Even the head of the Dragon Ball Room said they made Broly excessively powerful and that they raised the bar too much with him.
So things don't look good to Jiren anyway as he was also never directly compared to Beerus in the anime if you ignore out of universe sources. And simply from a scaling point of view there is no point in assuming that a previous antagonist is stronger when no caveats have been made about it (unlike what was done with Beerus).
It was only really one because Toriyama's scale according do Battle of Gods was that Super Saiyan God Goku was a 6 to Beerus' 10 and Beerus only needed 70% of his power to dominate Super Saiyan God. So it was never Super Saiyan God = 70% Beerus, it was Super Saiyan God < 70% Beerus. It was also never said in the movie that Beerus was 'forced' to used 70%, only that he used 70%. It's honestly no different than Frieza using 50% of his power against Goku when he wasn't force to do so at all and 50% was overkill. Also, in Resurrection 'F' it was said Goku and Vegeta > Beerus, which doesn't retcon Battle of Gods at all.
Broly happened after the Super retcon the two movies and we don't know how Gogeta scales to Jiren or UI. And even then, even if we say Gogeta Blue is stronger than UI, it doesn't matter since Gogeta Blue stomped Broly.
"And even though he acted like he could easily defeat SSB KK x10 Goku in the anime, it's weird that he was surprised when we saw that a heavily suppressed Jiren (GoD level) treated an even stronger Goku using Blue KK x20 as a joke later."
How is that weird? TOP Goku is way stronger than Champa Saga Goku. Remember, Goku fought a stronger Hit in just Blue when he needed Blue Kaioken x10 before. Which means anime Goku got at least 10x stronger before USS and that is before we account for the extra 10x boost. So I don't see why it would be odd that Beerus say his best fighter who gotten so strong just get wiped by this seemingly random mortal. Remember, Beerus didn't know Jiren was the rumored 'mortal stronger than a god' unlike the manga.
" they literally pretend this doesn't exist when surpassing him has always been treated as a big deal (with all the oracle fish prophecy about Goku and him). "
The oracle fish prophecy was only about Super Saiyan God. The other part comes only from the Super manga when he said both Vegeta and Goku would be his rivals one day.
"you see that Beerus being surpassed wasn't Toriyama's intention because he also doesn't definitely put Broly above him either"
If Toriyama didn't want Beerus to be surpass at all, why did he allowed both the anime and the manga say Jiren was stronger than a God of Destruction while making all the gods relative to each other?
"Goku literally saying he was sure of his strength but then Broly appeared (this is all after Jiren and UI) and treating the fact of surpassing Beerus as a big deal."
This is ignoring that Goku also said in the film that the TOP opened is eyes and he needed to get stronger. Meaning, he knew that they were strongest foes out there with a particular close up to Jiren when he said that.
"I don't know why Golden Freeza is relevant here when Broly wasn't even in his strongest form (and this is the same movie that had Base Goku facing Ikari Broly)."
Neither was Jiren when he two-shotted Golden Frieza and Toppo wasn't exactly trying either. Jiren didn't go to his full power until the end of 129.
"And I mean, If you want to consider promotional material then Broly is also said to be the stronger than a GoD and more than that, he is outright said to be the strongest antagonist."
Which is why I said, "there is far more pointing to Jiren > Broly than Broly > Jiren."
In all promotion for Jiren he was said to be stronger than a God of Destruction and the manga and the anime confirmed this several times. Broly on the other hand only got a few promotions putting him above a God of Destruction with the movie proper saying 'probably' compared to Jiren getting an outright confirmation. And this was 'before' Jiren broke his limits in the anime.
"So things don't look good to Jiren anyway as he was also never directly compared to Beerus in the anime"
Jiren was compared since as Whis put it 'there is a mortal that a God of Destruction can't beat, and that mortal is stronger than Beerus'. That is a direct comparison even if Beerus denies it because Whis is saying said god > Beerus, and said god < this mortal. Especially since again, there is nothing suggesting that Beerus shit stomps Belmond.