Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

In the movie,we don't even know if Freeza can sense ki or not.

It seemed like he could, he was able to pinpoint Goku through a cloud of smoke when he was spamming those ki blasts at him. In the Namek saga during a similar scene they were going all over the place.

His reaction to SSJB might be another thing as well.

[LightBing]

Vegeta and Cabba are roughly even in their base forms, so the same is applied to them as Super Saiyans. Vegeta tanked that punch in the forehead because Cabba lost his Super Saiyan powers. I don't think Vegeta was holding back as a Super Saiyan. Showing Super Saiyan Blue so soon wouldn't have any point.

I don't see where Cabba lost his SSJ powers. Vegeta smiles right before stopping his barrage and then just stands there waiting for Cabba to punch him, while the later is still a Super Saiyan.
The point of showing SSJB was to challenge Cabba to reach it, it's directly stated.

Now this is for everyone who subscribes to the multipliers idea; please provide arguments supporting it.
This fight actually shows that such thing doesn't exist, yet people are ignoring it.
I don't remember ever any character mention any multiplier or pointing towards it.
In fact, I can't argue there's many indications that prove otherwise. The whole Android and Cell Arc revolve around countering this:

• When the characters got trumped by the Androids, their logic was to surpass SSJ. Wouldn't it be easier and logical to increase the base, since the gains would be multiplied fifty fold?
• Then we have Goku mention mastering SSJ, as the best way to gain power. Which proves to have amazing results, easily surpassing the other forms. Isn't this contradictory with a steady multiplier?
• The characters never once trained in base after acquiring SSJ(at least in the manga). If it relates to base, why wouldn't they go for it, instead of mastering the form or acquiring new transformations.
• Nobody in the series ever mentioned a multiplier, contrary to the Kaioken and the Oozaru form. Even when Goku is explaining all the forms to Boo and Babidi.
• We see a SSJ Future Kid Trunks fighting Base Future Gohan, I guess we could assume Trunks is just very, very weak. But it seems to me that it's SSJ is simply weak. This point is very debatable and the weakest.

So I want to know if people actually thought the multiplier theory or are just blindly following what a guide said. If there's decent arguments for it, I'll read and gladly discuss it as a possibility. Although I see no indication in the story that's the case.
I have a problem with people talking about it, as if it was a fact.

[dbgtFO]

Of course most of these numbers work fairly well if we drastically reduce most SSj multipliers, but on these forums the majority seems not to subscribe to the decreasing multiplier hypothesis.

I'm actually surprised you go for a decreasing SS multiplier, as I thought you were on board with SSFP going in the opposite direction of that, as in:

Cell Arc - Goku & Gohan in RoSaT:

Goku: 5
-SS Stage I: 250
--SS Stage II: 500
--SS Stage III: 1,000
--SS Full Power: 1,000+

Making the gap between base and SS much bigger than before, rather than much smaller.

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta and Cabba are roughly even in their base forms, so the same is applied to them as Super Saiyans. Vegeta tanked that punch in the forehead because Cabba lost his Super Saiyan powers. I don't think Vegeta was holding back as a Super Saiyan. Showing Super Saiyan Blue so soon wouldn't have any point.

I don't see where Cabba lost his SSJ powers. Vegeta smiles right before stopping his barrage and then just stands there waiting for Cabba to punch him, while the later is still a Super Saiyan.

The point of showing SSJB was to challenge Cabba to reach it, it's directly stated.

*Multiplier stuff*

I disagree. I think Vegeta was happy because he managed to teach Cabba the essence of Super Saiyan, but since it's his first time Cabba could have wasted a lot of energy. Then, Vegeta ordered him to transform again, restarting the match. If Vegeta doesn't feel confortable with fighting Cabba as a Super Saiyan, I don't think he would take a step further that soon. Cabba would see SSB in the match against Hit either way.

Actually, in the manga we have a line from Vegeta supporting Super Saiyan provides the same power boost for any Saiyan.

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
Trunks (with Goten): “We’re fine too!”

Nothing in this recent episode seems to have definetely changed that. It was similar to Goku vs. Oob, which had a lot of twists while the fighters were at about the same level. Cabba pressured Vegeta when he was defending himself and when Vegeta drops his guard he seems unfazed? Seems like the power output wasn't the same.

[ShinTenshin]

Base Kyabe endured several hits of a restrained SS VEGETA. But SS Kyabe is destroyed by a simple hit of SSBLUE Vegeta. So this heavily imply that the gap between SS and SSBLUE is much bigger than between base and SS. That's interesting.

[ZombieVito]

I absolutely hate it but I guess the theory is proven then.

[saunasolmu]

Cabba can't be equal to Vegeta in base if Vegeta is superior in SSJ.

Vegeta was just toying with Cabba.

Vegeta has MSSJ. It was the first time ever Cabba transformed.

And? The multiplier is the same.

Toriyama's recent interview states that Goku will focus on mastering SSJ instead of using SSJ2 or SSJ3, implying that mastered SSJ is even better than unmastered SSJ3 - let alone SSJ1.

[ZombieVito]

So how strong do you guys have non god ki SSJ Goku and Vegeta? SSJ2 tier?

[dbzfan7]

Love this episode. It may put an end to the two base theory, and I believe it put an end to Gohan and Piccolo being God tier for no good reason. Good.

Another thing is I think that whole Saiyan Beyond God thing is just something Heroes came up with. I don't think we'll ever see it in the series, unless you count the fight with Freeza as that, which I personally don't. I also think being the simple series Dragon Ball is, they wouldn't keep such a thing, as that'd confuse young viewers. Having a base Goku be above his SSJ form? I can already see young viewers scratching their heads. By keeping it Base->SSJ->SSJB, everything is kept streamlined and simple.

[ShinTenshin]

Actually, this is how i see the Champa arc,

Botamo : perfect Cell Tier
Piccolo : SS2 Tier
Base Goku and Mr Buu : SS2,5 Tier
Frost : SS3 Tier
SS Goku and Vegeta : SSVegetto Tier (maybe a bit higher).

So for SS Goku/Vegeta, 1/10 on the Beerus scale at best !

[namekiansaiyan]

I don't get what everyone is saying about the God Ki theory being proved, nothing has been proved.
Goku and Vegeta have 3 forms:
Base, Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan Blue is basically Super Saiyan 2 now.

[Bullza]

I'm not so sure on the two base theory anymore, I really just don't know.

Now I might be going more with Super Saiyan being God tier and then Base form being 1/50th the strenght of God tier.

So Botamo, Third Form (and maybe Final Form) Frost, Piccolo, base Goku, Vegeta and Cabba are all sort of SSJ2/SSJ3 or so level along with Buu.

Super Saiyan Goku, Vegeta and Cabba as well as Magetta would be God tier. The latter two are perhaps low end God tier though.

[Doctor.]

I'm just going with what I always thought. Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God, which is weaker in Super's version than the 6 Toriyama originally gave it (maybe a 3 or 4), then Blue is an improvement over it. Super Saiyan 2 and 3 now have the same multiplier as Super Saiyan's 50x. Base form Goku and Vegeta are, like, Super Boo tier or so.

[Chiki]

I'm just going with what I always thought. Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God, which is weaker in Super's version than the 6 Toriyama originally gave it (maybe a 3 or 4), then Blue is an improvement over it. Super Saiyan 2 and 3 now have the same multiplier as Super Saiyan's 50x. Base form Goku and Vegeta are, like, Super Boo tier or so.

It's pretty much confirmed that Goku and Vegeta aren't using god ki during this tournament (Vegeta will use it for Hit now though). Let's assume you're right:

1. It's ridiculous that there are so many god-level people running around (Piccolo, Botamo, Frost, Cabbe, Magetta etc.) to begin with. Achieving that level of power is not easy at all.
2. Piccolo getting a massive power boost is ridiculous. He was Cell Junior or Perfect Cell level during RoF, and now he's up there with God Goku after a bit of training? No way.
3. Why doesn't Frost have a Golden form if he's god level? In the manga, Goku tells Frost to train (meaning Frost is around Namek Frieza level). Goku can tell that Frost is just like Frieza in that he never trains either. Frost probably never had a reason to train in U6 to begin with.
4. Goku and Vegeta admitted that they weren't taking this tournament 100% seriously to begin with, so there's no reason to say that anyone else is God level apart from Hit.

Goku and Vegeta can probably switch god ki on and off, on base or Super Saiyan.

[LowRyder2005]

Honestly, I think the episode barely added anything to whatever theory you created in your head.
We just know that there is a huge gap between Super Saiyan Blue and regular Super Saiyan, and that there's another big gap between Super Saiyan and regular form.

If anything, Vegeta turning Super Saiyan Blue on top of his Super Saiyan means that he can choose to add God ki to the Vanilla Super Saiyan to become Blue.
So the fact that God ki can be turned on and off has already been basically shown. It all depends on you and if you want to think they can add the God ki to their Base Form too, if you have Fourth Form Freeza, say, Kid Buu tier.

Vegeta never stated he had any need to use Super Saiyan Blue to beat Cabba (I think his Super Saiyan is still strong), and it simply looks like he had a specific desire to show him the form in order to encourage him to train.

[ZombieVito]

Having two base powers is a nightmare.

We don't have any way of knowing when they are using god ki or not in base.

[Doctor.]

1. It's ridiculous that there are so many god-level people running around (Piccolo, Botamo, Frost, Cabbe, Magetta etc.) to begin with. Achieving that level of power is not easy at all.

Why is it ridiculous? The only God tiers are Super Saiyan Cabba and Magetta, the rest of the fighters are around Base Goku/Vegeta level of power, which I specifically stated are around Super Boo in power. Monaka is God tier and he came out of nowhere.

2. Piccolo getting a massive power boost is ridiculous. He was Cell Junior or Perfect Cell level during RoF, and now he's up there with God Goku after a bit of training? No way.

Piccolo was weaker than base Goku on Namek then suddenly got to a strength level on-par with Super Saiyans. It's not unbelievable to think he got around Super Boo's strength level considering how ridiculous his boosts in strength throughout the series were.

3. Why doesn't Frost have a Golden form if he's god level? In the manga, Goku tells Frost to train (meaning Frost is around Namek Frieza level). Goku can tell that Frost is just like Frieza in that he never trains either. Frost probably never had a reason to train in U6 to begin with.

I didn't say he was God level. He was clearly much weaker than Super Saiyan Goku.

4. Goku and Vegeta admitted that they weren't taking this tournament 100% seriously to begin with, so there's no reason to say that anyone else is God level apart from Hit.

Because they never needed Blue.

Goku and Vegeta can probably switch god ki on and off, on base or Super Saiyan.

This is baseless speculation only because some people can't accept that the U6 characters are super strong.

[LightBing]

I disagree. I think Vegeta was happy because he managed to teach Cabba the essence of Super Saiyan, but since it's his first time Cabba could have wasted a lot of energy. Then, Vegeta ordered him to transform again, restarting the match. If Vegeta doesn't feel confortable with fighting Cabba as a Super Saiyan, I don't think he would take a step further that soon. Cabba would see SSB in the match against Hit either way.

Actually, in the manga we have a line from Vegeta supporting Super Saiyan provides the same power boost for any Saiyan.

Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”
Trunks (with Goten): “We’re fine too!”

Nothing in this recent episode seems to have definetely changed that. It was similar to Goku vs. Oob, which had a lot of twists while the fighters were at about the same level. Cabba pressured Vegeta when he was defending himself and when Vegeta drops his guard he seems unfazed? Seems like the power output wasn't the same.

Agree to disagree, maybe the subbed episode will add something new to this discussion.

About that line, I see were you're coming from. But it's still a stretch. To me he's simply reasserting his dominance regardless. The "conditions" here, are an equal footing in the fight, nobody having any extras.

Having two base powers is a nightmare.

We don't have any way of knowing when they are using god ki or not in base.

Very true, it's the main detractor of that theory. Mr.Toriyama motto is simplicity, he reinforced it again during his preview about Super; how it would maintain it's simplicity from before.
He relies on visual cues to show that a character has gotten to another level.

[Noah]

I absolutely hate it but I guess the theory is proven then.

How?

[LowRyder2005]

Having two base powers is a nightmare.

We don't have any way of knowing when they are using god ki or not in base.

Honestly, assuming that Goku can "pour" his God ki to somehow amp his base form, I think there were (so far) enough visual cues to at least show when Goku and Vegeta were barely trying in base, anyway. If you look at Goku's aura against Freeza, it is nowhere to be seen in Goku vs. Botamo or Goku vs. Frost.
There's still the issue that people apparently can't feel Goku's ki only when he is Super Saiyan Blue, though. That's why I think that it's more probable that Goku's God power simply went away after his battle with Beerus and he had to re-train to get it. Right now, Goku is substantially stronger than ever, but he has to turn Blue to get to the God realm. Fourth Freeza becomes nothing special, in turn.
It would make sense, in theory, since it was supposed to be that way in the original legend and it would make the comparison between Goku and Vegeta before Goku starts training too more believable.

That being said, the real monkeywrench in the "everyone is god tier" argument is as usually Good Buu: he's still supposed to be a powerhouse in Goku and Vegeta's eyes and if Piccolo could kill Frost, it seems unlikely for Good Buu to get curbstomped like vs. Beerus.

@Doctor: Regarding Piccolo, unless you believe that Gohan is stronger than his Ultimate self (and he looks like he isn't, see people arguing that Good Buu could have turned everything in their favor against Freeza while Gohan could not), Piccolo getting as strong as Super Buu is at least very incoherent with the Buu Saga itself. It has been said some pages ago: if Piccolo could get stronger than Fat Buu in six months by training with a rather weaker Gohan, why didn't he train in the ROSAT for a day and then proceed to beat Buu by himself?