Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

It's messy but it still happened and thus it's Canon.

Then you can cherry-pick what “canon” aspect you like more and makes more sense to you. One particular fight in which he performs more or less on the same page as SSB. Or the others in which he loses to SS2. Or you can say the gap between the Super Saiyan forms is meaningless.

I honestly don’t think Zamasu ever considered Ultra Instinct or Ultra Ego. Based on his experience and the clip he watched, it seems his goal was only Super Saiyan (Blue). He never even attempted to use kaioken.

I haven't cherry-picked anything.

I never denied that Zamasu was stabbed by SS2 Trunks or that Trunks was fodder to Black, but at the same time that is not convincing evidence that that line from BoG was retconned, because those scenes where SS2 Trunks pressures SSR Black still exist, and all the other scenes I mentioned.

I concede whenever I see a line from a scene or an anime guide databook that states that Goku has somehow lost the power of God in his weaker forms or that somehow that boost was only temporary and ended shortly after BoG. Until then the statement from BoG stands, there's really nothing that retcons it. And thus it would mean that all forms and characters from both Z and Super scale accordingly.

Maybe when/if Super would like to continue the anime, they can resolve the issue with a clear statement.

[Koitsukai]

The fights with Zamasu and Black are the fights with the most inconsistencies.
Goku struggles with Zamasu, after fighting Black Rose, then Trunks who was oneshot by a weaker form of Goku two days ago, fights and beats Zamasu to the point that he would've killed him if he wasn't immortal. And he survives a point blank kamehameha.

Characters get stronger depending on what the plot demands at that particular moment, no matter if everything prior to that implied they were fodder.

[Hugo Boss]

I concede whenever I see a line from a scene or an anime guide databook that states that Goku has somehow lost the power of God in his weaker forms or that somehow that boost was only temporary and ended shortly after BoG. Until then the statement from BoG stands, there's really nothing that retcons it. And thus it would mean that all forms and characters from both Z and Super scale accordingly.

Maybe when/if Super would like to continue the anime, they can resolve the issue with a clear statement.

That’s alright, but I don’t think any of that is necessary for me. I particularly don’t care about statements and feats, specially when they come from the anime. They limit any meaningful discussion about the characters’ strength. I think the story being told and the character interactions speak for themselves in a much higher clarity level.

[Goku9001]

There are some convincing arguments for both sides, but I honestly don't think Toei cares. I agree that until we get more concrete evidence, it's more reasonable to assume that the Base Saiyans are still god-level. All of those instances can just be explained by Goku being suppressed which is a given since he was merely testing Krillin, Roshi, Buu, and Gohan anyways.

Toei also has the Base Saiyans arguably surpassing their previous Super Saiyan Blue levels from the end of the Zamasu saga if that means anything at all.

[ZombieVito]

Zamssu and Trunks (Before Ikari of course) are clearly below SS3 tier. Just because they got some hits on Blue level fighters doesn't make them one.

[Goku9001]

Zamssu and Trunks (Before Ikari of course) are clearly below SS3 tier. Just because they got some hits on Blue level fighters doesn't make them one.

Nah, they definitely seemed Blue tier in the anime. SSJB Goku couldn't even land a hit on Zamasu, Trunks actually did. Zamasu also was able to pin SSJB Goku to the wall which allowed Goku Black to almost kill him.

[SupremeKai25]

If you people genuinely believe Base Goku is still DBZ level (so no God tier) you would have to explain how he was pressuring and fighting Jiren here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYYXfLdpuds&t=9s

This by the way was Jiren after being empowered by Toppo's Power of Friendship speech, which allowed him to literally force Frieza out of his Golden form.

Something had to have been boosted here somehow.

Zamssu and Trunks (Before Ikari of course) are clearly below SS3 tier. Just because they got some hits on Blue level fighters doesn't make them one.

Nah, they definitely seemed Blue tier in the anime. SSJB Goku couldn't even land a hit on Zamasu, Trunks actually did. Zamasu also was able to pin SSJB Goku to the wall which allowed Goku Black to almost kill him.

Yep. Also, and this is a feat that often is ignored, Zamasu was able to tank SSR Black's Rosé Kamehameha without any scratch or damage on his body, which we know is NOT a result of immortality (because later on his head is damaged by Goku's attack), meanwhile the two Saiyans were completely knocked to the ground and unable to move (so they were damaged heavily):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEsLFuJ5GPk

If Zamasu really was weaker than God fighters then this attack would have blown his body to pieces.

[Koitsukai]

Pre-Ikari SS2 Trunks was literally oneshot by SS3 Goku. Can’t think of a more direct comparison than that…

SS3 Goku would have to be as strong as SSB Goku for Trunks to be at that level.

[Goku9001]

Pre-Ikari SS2 Trunks was literally oneshot by SS3 Goku. Can’t think of a more direct comparison than that…

SS3 Goku would have to be as strong as SSB Goku for Trunks to be at that level.

No, it simply means that SSJ2 Trunks had become stronger, likely as a result of Vegeta's pep talk which gave Trunks the resolve he needed to grow stronger rather than to rely on others. Saiyans grow stronger through their emotions and Trunks' anger and resolve to finally take it upon himself to protect his future was likely the catalyst for Trunks' growth.

I'm not sure why people are cherrypicking one feat among the various others that show that Trunks was SSJB level. He was below SSJ3 Goku prior to the fight with Goku Black, but that doesn't mean he was SSJ3 level during that fight.

[Koitsukai]

Pre-Ikari SS2 Trunks was literally oneshot by SS3 Goku. Can’t think of a more direct comparison than that…

SS3 Goku would have to be as strong as SSB Goku for Trunks to be at that level.

No, it simply means that SSJ2 Trunks had become stronger, likely as a result of Vegeta's pep talk which gave Trunks the resolve he needed to grow stronger rather than to rely on others. Saiyans grow stronger through their emotions and Trunks' anger and resolve to finally take it upon himself to protect his future was likely the catalyst for Trunks' growth.

I'm not sure why people are cherrypicking one feat among the various others that show that Trunks was SSJB level. He was below SSJ3 Goku prior to the fight with Goku Black, but that doesn't mean he was SSJ3 level during that fight.

A pep talk made him go from below SS3 to blue level? you really believe that to be the case? he just needed a lecture to quietly break his limits a few days later?

What about his actual power up scene in that arc, the ikari unlock?? he should be above Merged Zamasu if he was already blue level and later got a brand new form-ish. What your second paragraph describes is his ikari SS transformation.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think the most consistent comparison is still Freeza, personally.

Freeza's training for the first time and both getting massively stronger and unlocking a new god-level form is the entire point of an entire main story arc.

He's not the kind to sandbag and lower his power level; he takes threats on with his given strength and acts as a good control since you'll know exactly whether someone surpasses, is inferior to, or matches him.

And at the moment, he seems comparable to current base Saiyans and somewhat inferior to their Super Saiyan forms despite him being undeniably stronger than before. The question in that regard becomes where his true form sits.

[Mr Baggins]

If you ignore it in favor of scrutinizing every fight, you end up with Zamasu, Trunks, Gohan, Caulifla and Kyabe with base forms in SSG’s vicinity, which doesn’t seem to be what the show is trying to tell us.

I would argue that Toei simply doesn't know what to tell us. That's what happens when you leave a whole crew of scriptwriters (some of whom may have cared less about internal consistency than others) in charge of storytelling and battle plotting, assign each one to a different episode, and receive only the barest notes from Toriyama in addition to a broad story outline. It's gonna get messy to say the very least, and it was.

People are of course allowed to either ignore everything or come up with some post-hoc justifications if it helps them digest the story. I have nothing against it, if that's how they prefer to consume the material. But the amount you'd need for almost any given arc is ridiculous, so doing that just takes me out of it.

A lot of the same production staff would go on to work for the Heroes anime, which got just as bad. Not really a coincidence at all as far as I can tell.

[ZombieVito]

If you people genuinely believe Base Goku is still DBZ level (so no God tier) you would have to explain how he was pressuring and fighting Jiren here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYYXfLdpuds&t=9s

This by the way was Jiren after being empowered by Toppo's Power of Friendship speech, which allowed him to literally force Frieza out of his Golden form.

Something had to have been boosted here somehow.

Zamssu and Trunks (Before Ikari of course) are clearly below SS3 tier. Just because they got some hits on Blue level fighters doesn't make them one.

Nah, they definitely seemed Blue tier in the anime. SSJB Goku couldn't even land a hit on Zamasu, Trunks actually did. Zamasu also was able to pin SSJB Goku to the wall which allowed Goku Black to almost kill him.

Yep. Also, and this is a feat that often is ignored, Zamasu was able to tank SSR Black's Rosé Kamehameha without any scratch or damage on his body, which we know is NOT a result of immortality (because later on his head is damaged by Goku's attack), meanwhile the two Saiyans were completely knocked to the ground and unable to move (so they were damaged heavily):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEsLFuJ5GPk

If Zamasu really was weaker than God fighters then this attack would have blown his body to pieces.

He wasn't blown to pieces precisely because he was behind Goku and Trunks. Also his immortality is always on effect so any damage received from the blast was instantly healed before the smoke clears.

Zamasu is simply not god tier. On episode 63 a tired SS2 Trunks gets the upper hand on him. Also, Zamasu being god tier in the future completely fucks up Goku Black's entire reason to exist.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If you people genuinely believe Base Goku is still DBZ level (so no God tier) you would have to explain how he was pressuring and fighting Jiren here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYYXfLdpuds&t=9s

This by the way was Jiren after being empowered by Toppo's Power of Friendship speech, which allowed him to literally force Frieza out of his Golden form.

Something had to have been boosted here somehow.

Nah, they definitely seemed Blue tier in the anime. SSJB Goku couldn't even land a hit on Zamasu, Trunks actually did. Zamasu also was able to pin SSJB Goku to the wall which allowed Goku Black to almost kill him.

Yep. Also, and this is a feat that often is ignored, Zamasu was able to tank SSR Black's Rosé Kamehameha without any scratch or damage on his body, which we know is NOT a result of immortality (because later on his head is damaged by Goku's attack), meanwhile the two Saiyans were completely knocked to the ground and unable to move (so they were damaged heavily):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEsLFuJ5GPk

If Zamasu really was weaker than God fighters then this attack would have blown his body to pieces.

He wasn't blown to pieces precisely because he was behind Goku and Trunks. Also his immortality is always on effect so any damage received from the blast was instantly healed before the smoke clears.

Zamasu is simply not god tier. On episode 63 a tired SS2 Trunks gets the upper hand on him. Also, Zamasu being god tier in the future completely fucks up Goku Black's entire reason to exist.

Not really. It took Zamasu decades to reach that level, while Goku Black gets up there instantly. Trunks could fight SSJR Goku Black so he's no small fry, even if he was the weakest of the bunch.

[SupremeKai25]

He wasn't blown to pieces precisely because he was behind Goku and Trunks. Also his immortality is always on effect so any damage received from the blast was instantly healed before the smoke clears.

Zamasu is simply not god tier. On episode 63 a tired SS2 Trunks gets the upper hand on him. Also, Zamasu being god tier in the future completely fucks up Goku Black's entire reason to exist.

Goku and Trunks weren't actually shielding any part of his body since they were beside him. He was completely exposed frontally to the point that Goku literally asked him if he was really ready to sacrifice himself to defeat them (since he didn't think Zamasu would actually tank that blast and even remain unscathed, and he saw that the blast was going to hit him too).

No one is denying that Black is way stronger than Future Zamasu, I don't know where this idea comes from.

Future Zamasu being God tier doesn't mean in the slightest that he's near Black's level, because "God tier" is VERY BROAD. Plenty of people are in God tier. Without getting into Ultra Instinct territory, I'd put Future Zamasu in low God tier, below SSB Goku and Vegeta, so that he can still somewhat fight them due to being in the general tier of power, but still below them and vastly below Black, who was stated to be the strongest fighter on the battlefield at the time of the Fusion.

Nothing about Goku Black's existence is "fucked" because he's still at the very top. Future Zamasu is just in that general tier of power towards the bottom. Which perfectly aligns with Canon, where Future Zamasu was content with his general standing in power, preferring immortality instead, while Black kept pushing towards the top of power.

[ZombieVito]

If you people genuinely believe Base Goku is still DBZ level (so no God tier) you would have to explain how he was pressuring and fighting Jiren here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYYXfLdpuds&t=9s

This by the way was Jiren after being empowered by Toppo's Power of Friendship speech, which allowed him to literally force Frieza out of his Golden form.

Something had to have been boosted here somehow.



Yep. Also, and this is a feat that often is ignored, Zamasu was able to tank SSR Black's Rosé Kamehameha without any scratch or damage on his body, which we know is NOT a result of immortality (because later on his head is damaged by Goku's attack), meanwhile the two Saiyans were completely knocked to the ground and unable to move (so they were damaged heavily):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEsLFuJ5GPk

If Zamasu really was weaker than God fighters then this attack would have blown his body to pieces.

He wasn't blown to pieces precisely because he was behind Goku and Trunks. Also his immortality is always on effect so any damage received from the blast was instantly healed before the smoke clears.

Zamasu is simply not god tier. On episode 63 a tired SS2 Trunks gets the upper hand on him. Also, Zamasu being god tier in the future completely fucks up Goku Black's entire reason to exist.

Not really. It took Zamasu decades to reach that level, while Goku Black gets up there instantly. Trunks could fight SSJR Goku Black so he's no small fry, even if he was the weakest of the bunch.

Being able to kick him once is not being able to fight him.

Also if Zamasu could get to god level with just decades of training, don't you think he would have done it? He hates mortals, changing bodies with one must have sucked for him. That's one thing he would have avoided if possible.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Cherry-picking feats at its finest.

They are merely the facts. You can count the amount of times Future Zamasu actually lands a genuine hit on anyone on one hand.

Trunks giving pressure to Goku Black means nothing. He obviously isn't God level.

[Goku9001]

A pep talk made him go from below SS3 to blue level? you really believe that to be the case? he just needed a lecture to quietly break his limits a few days later?

What about his actual power up scene in that arc, the ikari unlock?? he should be above Merged Zamasu if he was already blue level and later got a brand new form-ish. What your second paragraph describes is his ikari SS transformation.

That's one explanation. Trunks didn't have the motivation to grow stronger because he continuously relied on others to solve his problems. Vegeta chastises him for doing so and since Trunks is clearly shown to acknowledge Vegeta's advice, then that did likely give him the resolve to grow stronger. That is one explanation, however. It is not objective and the anime is prone to weird powerscaling. This is just one explanation that I think makes sense of Trunks' insane power-up.

His Ikari unlock made him surpass SSJB Goku and SSJB Vegeta during their 2nd encounter with the Zamasu duo. Trunks is clearly shown holding his own against the both of them whereas Goku and Vegeta are blatantly overpowered by Goku Black. It's only until Goku and Vegeta return to fight the duo again that they rival or even surpass Ikari Trunks as they have been training and had grown stronger. In fact, Vegeta grows much stronger as a result of his resolve to protect Trunks which is actually evidence of Trunks growing much stronger due to his own resolve which was ignited by Vegeta.

[Goku9001]

They are merely the facts. You can count the amount of times Future Zamasu actually lands a genuine hit on anyone on one hand.

Trunks giving pressure to Goku Black means nothing. He obviously isn't God level.

You're right. It wouldn't mean anything if anyone below Blue level could land a blow or do anything against the Zamasu duo. The fact that Blue was even needed to compete with them suggests Trunks was Blue level since he was able to do the same. This is just common sense at this point. The best you could argue is that Future Zamasu is slightly below that but not enough to make any sort of difference.

Let's not forget that SSJ2 Trunks suffered similar damage from Goku Black's KHH as SSJB Goku did. But obviously, that's a fluke and not evidence of anything, right?

[Hugo Boss]

I would argue that Toei simply doesn't know what to tell us.

Well said. I should probably rewrite what I stated in this light, that I’m trying to extract a droplet of sense in this messy storytelling that is Super and Heroes. As much as you look at it, you won’t find a common ground without post-hoc justifications.

Someone asked above how strong Freeza is in his true form after his training. If you think he is as strong as SSG, Base Saiyan or Super Saiyan, you can probably find evidences favoring all these assessments. (My take is that he is relative to Frost and Super Saiyans).