"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Matches Malone]

You know what really gets under my skin about this whole thing ? the fact that Goku gave Moro his crystals back (whatever's in his head and hands) right after Merus gave his life to destroy them. WTF?????!!!!!! This man literally died for someone to just make their death be for nothing.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I don't have an issue with the resolution being kept under wraps, I'm just not a fan of the fake outs. I don't mind it once or even twice, but we're on the 4th one now, with maybe another after that.

But it's only really a 'fake-out' if it ends up having nothing to do with the plot progression and resolution, right? I'm not sure that such a claim can be made at this stage. I'm not sure any constitutive element of the plot has 'tricked' us, as yet.

Say, for instance, if Vegeta's move goes towards beating Moro in the end, the fact that he didn't beat him straight up initially wouldn't really be a fake-out, would it? It would just be a necessary plot point to get to the end, and any build-up it gets would just be necessary establishing background. If nothing else, his intervention has certainly been instrumental in pushing Moro to the next stage as an opponent for the heroes.

This kind of thing is why I think it's important that we'll be able to see the whole thing, in the end. If Goku and Vegeta were, say, to pull off some sort of teamwork win by means of Ultra Instinct and Forced Spirit Fission (still not at all beyond the bounds of possibility), then really everything we've seen leading up to that would just seem like necessary material. But all this is speculative, of course.

While I certainly agree that the telling of the story overly decompressed (and I think this is as much a format issue as anything, as I've said elsewhere), I don't know that this is the same thing as there being pointless or superfluous elements in the plot, in the strict sense.

[Matches Malone]

This is Buu arc all over, where the only reason the main villain keep being a threat is that the cast are retardeds.

The only one who messed up was Gotenks. Vegeta outright sacrificed himself to kill Buu. Goku didn't believe it was his place to get involved due to him being dead, which makes sense. Buu pulled a fast one on Gohan by absorbing Gotenks. Vegetto couldn't kill him because he wanted to save the others first. Goku did try to kill Kid Buu but his power ran out. Nothing in the franchise has been this bad.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

You know what really gets under my skin about this whole thing ? the fact that Goku gave Moro his crystals back (whatever's in his head and hands) right after Merus gave his life to destroy them. WTF?????!!!!!! This man literally died for someone to just make their death be for nothing.

Yeah. What a waste of a character.

[JewyB]

You know what really gets under my skin about this whole thing ? the fact that Goku gave Moro his crystals back (whatever's in his head and hands) right after Merus gave his life to destroy them. WTF?????!!!!!! This man literally died for someone to just make their death be for nothing.

I mean, Merus gave his life for Goku to master UI, and based on what he said, if Moro had his crystals then he still wouldnt be able to beat MUI Goku, so he didn't die for nothing, he achieved his goal, Moro's crystals were just a bonus essentially.

[Matches Malone]

I mean, Merus gave his life for Goku to master UI, and based on what he said, if Moro had his crystals then he still wouldnt be able to beat MUI Goku, so he didn't die for nothing, he achieved his goal, Moro's crystals were just a bonus essentially.

He did die for nothing, because he helped Moro get to a level that's potentially above MUI. If someone dies for you, you don't go out of your way to make it be for nothing.

[JewyB]

I mean, Merus gave his life for Goku to master UI, and based on what he said, if Moro had his crystals then he still wouldnt be able to beat MUI Goku, so he didn't die for nothing, he achieved his goal, Moro's crystals were just a bonus essentially.

He did die for nothing, because he helped Moro get to a level that's potentially above MUI. If someone dies for you, you don't go out of your way to make it be for nothing.

If anything that's Merus' fault, he let Moro touch his neck and then left the hand intact.

But again, his goal was to get Goku to master UI, not to damage Moro, if he had wanted to he probably could have destroyed Moro himself but his goal was for Goku to master UI and defeat him his way, a way we saw they agreed upon.

[Matches Malone]

His goal was to get Goku to master UI, not to damage Moro, if he had wanted to he probably could have destroyed Moro himself but his goal was for Goku to master UI and defeat him his way, a way we saw they agreed upon.

His goal was to give Goku and everyone else a winning chance, and Goku literally threw it away. No matter how you look at it, Goku as a character has been completely destroyed by modern DB.

[JewyB]

His goal was to get Goku to master UI, not to damage Moro, if he had wanted to he probably could have destroyed Moro himself but his goal was for Goku to master UI and defeat him his way, a way we saw they agreed upon.

His goal was to give Goku and everyone else a winning chance, and Goku literally threw it away. No matter how you look at it, Goku as a character has been completely destroyed by modern DB.

No he did it explicitly to teach Goku to master UI, if he was doing it to protect the universe, he would have defeated Moro himself. His purpose was to help Goku finish his training and to leave the rest upto him, how he chose to handle it.

We're talking about Merus' reasons for dying, not your opinion on "modern Dragon Balls Goku", who i wouldnt say is completely destroyed but i'll allow you the hyperbole since it seemed it just had to come out?

[Matches Malone]

We're talking about Merus' reasons for dying, not your opinion on "modern Dragon Balls Goku", who i wouldnt say is completely destroyed.

If this kind of writing isn't destroying his character, then what will ? how bad does it have to get for you and others who defend him to finally admit he's being written badly ?

[JewyB]

We're talking about Merus' reasons for dying, not your opinion on "modern Dragon Balls Goku", who i wouldnt say is completely destroyed.

If this kind of writing isn't destroying his character, then what will ? how bad does it have to get for you and others who defend him to finally admit he's being written badly ?

Character destruction: Goku travels to king kais planet "Sup Kai bro, wanna go out find some hoes and hook up?"

Just because you dont like how he's currently being handled doesnt mean the character has been destroyed. I would say it has to get actually bad for it to be considered bad by me personally, not "This guy on the internet complains the previews have retroactively ruined decades of character development because Goku did something he did before".

To claim this is destroying the character is an overexaggeration and to pretend its not is dishonest. But either way its not what we were discussing.

[Matches Malone]

I would say it has to get actually bad for it to be considered bad by me personally. To claim this is destroying the character is an overexaggeration and to pretend its not is dishonest.

It has to get bad ? You seriously think what we've been getting with him is good ?

This comment explains things far better than I ever could:

To all those people defending Goku's actions in the current DBS manga chapter by naming examples of Goku making similar decisions in the original manga: you guys are reaching

First, not only are you completely missing the context of those acts in the OG manga, you are missing the point of the criticism smh.

Goku giving the clearly still dangerous Moro a senzu bean when the fight is far from over is easily the dumbest thing Goku has ever done, dumber than anything he ever did in 80s/90s DB. Not only is he shooting himself (and others) in the foot, he's making a complete mockery of Merus' sacrifice. Its just the newest example of how Goku is dumbed down in Modern DB.

I can already hear the excuses and bad defenses: "but Goku gave mercy to past villains too" and "tHiS iS GoKu'S ChArAcTeR". I'm going to go through all of those past examples just to debunk this argument.

In the OG manga/Z, Goku would only offer mercy AFTER the fight is 100% over and the villain was shown to no longer be a threat. And most importantly, when he did it would never lead to negative consequences.

Piccolo Jr & Vegeta: neither character ever attempted to attack the z-fighters again after Goku let them go and they both joined the heroes in the following arc.

Freeza: This was after Freeza was cut in half and lost all of his energy and elite minions. Goku wanted him to live in fear and humiliation for the rest of his life (which for Freeza is worse than death) after the Namek fight. Freeza was no longer a threat to him at that point, further proven by how Goku easily kills him and King Cold in the Trunks timeline. This isn't even a case of "I want to fight you again someday", as Goku warned him to never see him again or else.

Cell: 1st of all, Goku had no mercy for Cell, he wanted him dead. 2nd, the only reason he gave Cell a Senzu bean was because he knew that Gohan's hidden power would be enough to overwhelm Cell anyway and that nothing would be different if Cell never got the bean. Goku planned out all of his decisions in the Cell games 10 days on advance, it wasn't naive acts of recklessness.

Buu: He had no mercy for Buu either, and only decided not to kill Fat Buu with SSJ3 because he wanted the new kids to save the day for once (because you shouldn't rely on a dead man to solve your problems). Goku saw Buu as a test for Gohan, Kid Trunks & Goten to see if they can be counted on to protect the world without him. When he saw that he they couldn't, he immediately requested to jump back into the to fray. Again, this is an example of Goku making premeditated decisions and not naive recklessness.

Throughout the OG manga/Z, we never saw Goku make the same mistake twice (you don't need character development to learn from past mistakes) and whenever Goku makes a big risk he would plan it out before hand. This is in complete contrast to the pure stupidity of DBS Goku, who constantly drops his guard in the middle of a major battle (something he never did in Z and even GT), hardly ever takes serious situations seriously, is so incompetent that he forgets to bring Senzu beans to battle and important items like the Mafuba seal, and in the DBS manga even regresses as a martial artist (Toyotaro has Goku learning things he already mastered as a Kid lol).

So no, this isn't Goku's character, this is a dumbed down, badly written flanderization of Goku's character.

Being a static, flat-character arc type character is no excuse for failing to learn from your mistakes, especially when you charcater is supposed to be a combat/martial art genius that the people count on to save the day.

Classic Goku (OG,Z,GT) actually did learn from experience and didn't repeat mistakes, and when he did make mistakes he would express genuine regret and a desire not to do it again.

Modern Goku (Super) is the exact opposite smh. He's a badly written caricature.

[JewyB]

I would say it has to get actually bad for it to be considered bad by me personally. To claim this is destroying the character is an overexaggeration and to pretend its not is dishonest.

It has to get bad ? You seriously think what we've been getting with him is good ?

This comment explains things far better than I ever could:

To all those people defending Goku's actions in the current DBS manga chapter by naming examples of Goku making similar decisions in the original manga: you guys are reaching

First, not only are you completely missing the context of those acts in the OG manga, you are missing the point of the criticism smh.

Goku giving the clearly still dangerous Moro a senzu bean when the fight is far from over is easily the dumbest thing Goku has ever done, dumber than anything he ever did in 80s/90s DB. Not only is he shooting himself (and others) in the foot, he's making a complete mockery of Merus' sacrifice. Its just the newest example of how Goku is dumbed down in Modern DB.

I can already hear the excuses and bad defenses: "but Goku gave mercy to past villains too" and "tHiS iS GoKu'S ChArAcTeR". I'm going to go through all of those past examples just to debunk this argument.

In the OG manga/Z, Goku would only offer mercy AFTER the fight is 100% over and the villain was shown to no longer be a threat. And most importantly, when he did it would never lead to negative consequences.

Piccolo Jr & Vegeta: neither character ever attempted to attack the z-fighters again after Goku let them go and they both joined the heroes in the following arc.

Freeza: This was after Freeza was cut in half and lost all of his energy and elite minions. Goku wanted him to live in fear and humiliation for the rest of his life (which for Freeza is worse than death) after the Namek fight. Freeza was no longer a threat to him at that point, further proven by how Goku easily kills him and King Cold in the Trunks timeline. This isn't even a case of "I want to fight you again someday", as Goku warned him to never see him again or else.

Cell: 1st of all, Goku had no mercy for Cell, he wanted him dead. 2nd, the only reason he gave Cell a Senzu bean was because he knew that Gohan's hidden power would be enough to overwhelm Cell anyway and that nothing would be different if Cell never got the bean. Goku planned out all of his decisions in the Cell games 10 days on advance, it wasn't naive acts of recklessness.

Buu: He had no mercy for Buu either, and only decided not to kill Fat Buu with SSJ3 because he wanted the new kids to save the day for once (because you shouldn't rely on a dead man to solve your problems). Goku saw Buu as a test for Gohan, Kid Trunks & Goten to see if they can be counted on to protect the world without him. When he saw that he they couldn't, he immediately requested to jump back into the to fray. Again, this is an example of Goku making premeditated decisions and not naive recklessness.

Throughout the OG manga/Z, we never saw Goku make the same mistake twice (you don't need character development to learn from past mistakes) and whenever Goku makes a big risk he would plan it out before hand. This is in complete contrast to the pure stupidity of DBS Goku, who constantly drops his guard in the middle of a major battle (something he never did in Z and even GT), hardly ever takes serious situations seriously, is so incompetent that he forgets to bring Senzu beans to battle and important items like the Mafuba seal, and in the DBS manga even regresses as a martial artist (Toyotaro has Goku learning things he already mastered as a Kid lol).

So no, this isn't Goku's character, this is a dumbed down, badly written flanderization of Goku's character.

Being a static, flat-character arc type character is no excuse for failing to learn from your mistakes, especially when you charcater is supposed to be a combat/martial art genius that the people count on to save the day.

Classic Goku (OG,Z,GT) actually did learn from experience and didn't repeat mistakes, and when he did make mistakes he would express genuine regret and a desire not to do it again.

Modern Goku (Super) is the exact opposite smh. He's a badly written caricature.

I think the world exists in more than just black and white and just because something isn't astounding doesn't make it bad.

[HeroR]

That is lot of bulk. When you used that logic, Dragon Ball GT and Evolution would have sold gangbusters since it’s all Dragon Ball. Same with Dragon Ball Kai which was considered a failure in Japan.

I think it goes without saying that Toriyama being involved is going to attract more attention. Toei wasn't willing to continue the series until he decided to work on it again despite DB being in their top 3 highest earning franchises since the early 2000's (that's as far back as their financial reports go).

To be fair, I think he was talking production value. A brand new series trying to make a name for itself probably wouldn't be as rushed and have as little pre-production time as DBS. The ones that do usually don't last long or rank among great or even above average anime. Most of Toei's other recent anime didn't suffer as badly from what I understand.

Sailor Moon Crystal had similar production issues despite it being bi-monthly. And most new series starts as manga in Japan. There are very few anime originals that isn’t based on a manga or legecy series.

That and Toei actually didn’t have much say in Super’s rush production since the actual owners of Dragon Ball pushed the series so fast. Toei just didn’t help with the issue.

[Matches Malone]

I think the world exists in more than just black and white and just because something isn't astounding doesn't make it bad.

No matter how you look at it, someone as experienced as Goku making such a mistake is nothing short of bad writing. I don't even know if it qualifies as a mistake, as it's outright suicidal. It'd be like if he decided to cancel the spirit bomb to see if Kid Buu would reform or not.

[JewyB]

I think the world exists in more than just black and white and just because something isn't astounding doesn't make it bad.

No matter how you look at it, someone as experienced as Goku making such a mistake is nothing short of bad writing.

You are pushing a strict good/bad viewpoint in order to push your opinion as fact and thats not really working for me...

Its not bad writing, bad writing would be, as i said, turning Goku into a frat bro. Is it perfect? No. Is it the worst thing ever written in the history of Dragon Ball? Also no. Is it adequate? I'd say its above adequate and any complaints about this chapter are based on less than a quarter of it so "no matter how you look at it", they're incomplete judgements and cannot be relied heavily upon.

[Matches Malone]

You are pushing a strict good/bad viewpoint in order to push your opinion as fact and that's not really working for me...

Is it a fact, no, but it's as close to a fact as something subjective can get.

[JewyB]

You are pushing a strict good/bad viewpoint in order to push your opinion as fact and that's not really working for me...

Is it a fact, no, but it's as close to a fact as something subjective can get.

Well, i guess if you consider your opinion to be an unarguable fact then this discussion is moot.

Especially considering this was a talk about Merus anyways...

[Kodoshin]

Spoiler:

Guessing' we'll be seeing Goku taking on the angels soon enough.

I really don't want that. He is a Saiyan who makes the same kind of decisions over and over again. Angels are the overseers of the Universes possibly since their creation.. There is no point to make a fighting monkey race be equal with literal creators, except for powerlevel wanking.

DBS would be fine if it ended with Goku being on Beerus tier, that should be enough of a benchmark for Saiyans. Any higher and the plot literally has nowhere to go from there.

Tags again just for the sake of it:

Spoiler:

The truth is they were already at that point at the end of Z and then basically pulled a "but wait, there's more!" as a justification for this continuation. They whipped up a new god hierarchy and went from there. I wouldn't put anything past them at this point in terms of a willingness to graft on expansions to the universe. I'm just guessing that's the ride they have in store for us which is kind of a bummer, but I'll still mostly enjoy it along the way.

P.S. - That said, if this whole thing ends up being some fanfic-esque galaxy brain play where Zamasu corrupted Zen-Oh somehow I think my eyes will roll into the back of my head so fast that they will spin dash out of the back of my skull ala Sonic the Hedgehog.

[Femme Fatale Kikaza]

I feel like TFS Goku replaced Goku for this chap. Like its a parody of the personality people give Goku and they rolled with it into the writing material. All that's missing is Goku being negligent of Gohan. Goku isn't the smartest but this is ridiculous.

Even if Goku was a sociopath and low on empathy this behaviour is ridiculous. He'd at least care about himself to know Moro is gonna kill him.