Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Cipher]

You're scrambling things. Saganbo stood there and took a lot of stuff from everyone, the moment any ragdolling started the fighters started to get put down. It's all in the way Gohan and Piccolo move around like equals. A lesser fighter would be lagging behind (Like Kuririn and Gohan in the Piccolo throwing two kicks panels) or be left in the dust altogether (e.g. Gohan not even seeing 4th form Freeza's blast and needing to be saved by Vegeta).

If movement is the litmus test, Turtle Hermit is as strong as Jiren.

(You do not need to be so close in strength to provide effective coordinated support, would I think be Super’s premise. Piccolo is stronger, but not “quietly nearly equal to Gohan” stronger. Their practiced coordination making them stronger together than they would be simply as two fighters attacking the same opponent normally is also part of the whole premise.)

[ZombieVito]

SSB tier. Goku confirms it.

Yeah he says 17 is "about as strong as us", but it's kinda vague. He's clearly not comparing 17 to their strongest powers (UI and SSJBE), so saying he's being compared to SSJB is as arbitrary as say, SSJ3 or God.

Well why wouldn't it make sense? In BoG, it was mentioned when enraged SSJ (or SSJ2) Vegeta surpassed SSJ3 Goku so I think any significant gain for Piccolo would've also been made clear. Goku didn't absorb SSJG in the manga so Piccolo should still be below a regular SSJ in the Champa arc since it takes place shortly after RoF. I forgot if he did anything in the manga ToP to imply he vastly improved. I remember he lost as easily as 18 to the bug guy. I think a potential unlock form giving a significant powerup would be unnecessary if Toriyama intended for him to reach God tier within a few months of regular training. Super Hero might imply Gohan and Piccolo are still vastly below Blue Goku and Vegeta since its taking place while those two are offworld.

Even without SSJG being absorbed, RoF still happened in the manga. So Base Goku is super strong, even if nowhere near SSJG level, and so is 4th Freeza. Can Piccolo fight Freeza the way he fought Frost? I don't think so.

So you say Piccolo wouldnt be able to attack together with Gohan if he was significantly weaker, and then in the same post, post an image from the time the significantly weaker Krillin attacked together with Piccolo as evidence?

But its entirely different because Piccolo threw one more kick in same panel than Krillin?

Even though Piccolo didnt throw any punches or kicks against Saganbo at all and just got ragdolled around?

I’m trying to re-state the argument back to you so you can hopefully hear how unecessarily technical this has become.

You're scrambling things. Saganbo stood there and took a lot of stuff from everyone, the moment any ragdolling started the fighters started to get put down. It's all in the way Gohan and Piccolo move around like equals. A lesser fighter would be lagging behind (Like Kuririn and Gohan in the Piccolo throwing two kicks panels) or be left in the dust altogether (e.g. Gohan not even seeing 4th form Freeza's blast and needing to be saved by Vegeta).

And there's the Seven-Three fight. Gohan is no longer casually beating 7-3 around with one hand. Now whether 7-3 is using Gohan or Piccolo's powers, they need to fight as a duo to overwhelm him. Piccolo not just giving Gohan backup, he's fighting with him shoulder to shoulder.

The logical thing is that 17 is Blue tier. That's what the anime went with as well. I never understood why people say he's SS3 tier. SS3 Goku was terrified of 17's casual energy ball.

U6 arc Frost is stronger than RoF arc Freeza without Golden since Goku needed Super Saiyan to fight him.

[Skar]

Even without SSJG being absorbed, RoF still happened in the manga. So Base Goku is super strong, even if nowhere near SSJG level, and so is 4th Freeza. Can Piccolo fight Freeza the way he fought Frost? I don't think so.

RoF was following BoG after Goku absorbed SSJG which didn't apply to the manga's BoG arc. The manfa version of RoF might've had Goku use SSJG instead of "Saiyan Beyond God". I double-checked and Goku told Frost he could come back stronger if he trained like Freeza implying Frost might not have trained much. I guess above Namek Freeza since he was stronger than Piccolo but far from Freeza after four months of training. It fits with Piccolo still being below a regular SSJ1 since he was weaker than Gohan in RoF.

[ZombieVito]

Even without SSJG being absorbed, RoF still happened in the manga. So Base Goku is super strong, even if nowhere near SSJG level, and so is 4th Freeza. Can Piccolo fight Freeza the way he fought Frost? I don't think so.

RoF was following BoG after Goku absorbed SSJG which didn't apply to the manga's BoG arc. The manfa version of RoF might've had Goku use SSJG instead of "Saiyan Beyond God". I double-checked and Goku told Frost he could come back stronger if he trained like Freeza implying Frost might not have trained much. I guess above Namek Freeza since he was stronger than Piccolo but far from Freeza after four months of training. It fits with Piccolo still being below a regular SSJ1 since he was weaker than Gohan in RoF.

[Skar]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/0e/55 ... e7a330.jpg

I'm aware of the promo manga but that was for the film. I'm assuming it would be slightly different in the DBS manga since he didn't absorb SSJG there.

[ZombieVito]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ca/0e/55 ... e7a330.jpg

I'm aware of the promo manga but that was for the film. I'm assuming it would be slightly different in the DBS manga since he didn't absorb SSJG there.

Toyotaro used that manga when Whis explained RoF events to Shin so it happened.

Base Goku fighting Final Form Freeza is DBS canon.

[Skar]

Toyotaro used that manga when Whis explained RoF events to Shin so it happened.

Base Goku fighting Final Form Freeza is DBS canon.

Hmm I don't remember that but how does RoF play out the same way in the manga if he didn't absorb SSJG in the manga's version of BoG? In the film RoF, he went from Saiyan Beyond God to Blue but in the Champa arc he went regular SSJ, God, and Blue instead so it seems Saiyan Beyond God was retconned.

[Koitsukai]

It's not a matter of canonicity, it's a matter of being still present and congruent with this story.

It is not, Goku is clearly sporting a particular aura in the manga adaptation of RoF, one that he will never have again in a fight in Toyotaro's DBS(not to be confused with the more spikey aura when depleted to showcase his utmost power available).
There's also that panel of base Goku with SSG in the background. This is clearly hinting Goku's base is more than just Goku's base form, it's basically SSG Goku's power.

Also, it is not DBS manga chapter 5 and 1/2, it's the movie adaptation of RoF and it actually predates the manga.
Since the RoF manga is basically the RoF movie, and the whole SBG base thing is nowhere to be seen in the latter DBS manga, and it's also contradicted by Goku never having absorbed SSG in his base form in the first place, then it is either impossible or a temporary thing that started and ended in RoF. In any case, it was not followed through with.

[Hugo Boss]

Saiyan beyond God was one of the best Toriyama’s recent ideas, but Dragon Ball Super manga unfortunately doesn’t roll with it when it brings the golden-haired forms back. Who knows who is responsible for this dereliction.

[ZombieVito]

Toyotaro used that manga when Whis explained RoF events to Shin so it happened.

Base Goku fighting Final Form Freeza is DBS canon.

Hmm I don't remember that but how does RoF play out the same way in the manga if he didn't absorb SSJG in the manga's version of BoG? In the film RoF, he went from Saiyan Beyond God to Blue but in the Champa arc he went regular SSJ, God, and Blue instead so it seems Saiyan Beyond God was retconned.

That middle panel is lifted straight from the RoF manga.

[Hugo Boss]

It isn’t to say that RoF manga adaptation doesn’t link to Dragon Ball Super manga, but rather that small tidbit that doesn’t jive well with fights written in the tournament of power arc. In RoF we have Freeza’s final form at SSG’s level, while in ToP he is SS level. A SSG’s level Freeza wouldn’t need to transform against SS Caulifla and so on.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It isn’t to say that RoF manga adaptation doesn’t link to Dragon Ball Super manga, but rather that small tidbit that doesn’t jive well with fights written in the tournament of power arc. In RoF we have Freeza’s final form at SSG’s level, while in ToP he is SS level. A SSG’s level Freeza wouldn’t need to transform against SS Caulifla and so on.

This is why I think Freeza himself has also been adjusted to not be fully god-level in his base form in both mediums, just like Goku and Vegeta in the manga and eventually in the anime.

I also think these current Super Saiyans (disregarding Present Trunks and Gotenks) are quite a bit stronger than when we last saw them in the Buu story arc. I still standby my belief that Freeza is meant to be depicted nowadays as comparable to Majin Buu, with the base/Super Saiyan forms of the Saiyans competitive with him being similarly at that level.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Ultra Ego still doesn't make a whole lot of sense as a Haikashin ability though. Yes Vegeta had GoD chi and gets stronger as he takes damage, but that's never been something the GoD's have displayed any interest whatsoever in doing.

In the battle royale, Beerus was dodging everyone. The other GoD's were dodging each other. In every fight Beerus has ever had, he's taken every measure to avoid even a fraction of damage. There's literally no precedent for GoD's to intentionally take damage or to get stronger from taking damage. Hell, in UE Vegeta's fight with Granolah, Granolah was the only one to use destruction! So just what the hell exactly is UE?? Just a powerup thats only narratively related to the GoD's?

I believe Beerus' line about his power being unlimited due to always thinking about destruction, because that's simply the meta of the manga according to the writers.

Damage was just Vegeta's way of getting stronger because it served to stir up his battle spirit (which is what really increases his power while he's in this state, it's an instinct driven power as he says). But that's not necessarily the primary way the GoDs make use of this technique, as Beerus mentions that his "unlimited power" was due to his mind being always focused on destruction. So they probably have other ways to stir up their instincts. Obviously UE wasn't a thing in the GoD battle royal so we are just trying to fit explanations in this regard, but we can actually see the battle quickly escalating to the point where Goku couldn't even follow any of them, so you can kind of make a point about them getting progressively stronger during the fight.

Vegeta did use Hakai against Granolah but it was implied that his ability with the technique was lacking (since it was said he was trying to make up for the lack of destructive power with quantity). But he ended up using a massive destruction sphere at the end once he attains UE

[Skar]

That middle panel is lifted straight from the RoF manga.

Oh ok I thought you meant it reused a panel showing Saiyan Beyond God. I wasn't expecting the entire premise of the film to change and only that form retconned since it didn't appear in the manga at all.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

If movement is the litmus test, Turtle Hermit is as strong as Jiren.

(You do not need to be so close in strength to provide effective coordinated support, would I think be Super’s premise. Piccolo is stronger, but not “quietly nearly equal to Gohan” stronger. Their practiced coordination making them stronger together than they would be simply as two fighters attacking the same opponent normally is also part of the whole premise.)

I mean, they literally gave Roshi a pseudo-UI technique that Piccolo clearly doesn't have. I don't think he's right behind Gohan, but he's certainly closer to Gohan than he is to 17.

Toyotaro used that manga when Whis explained RoF events to Shin so it happened.

Base Goku fighting Final Form Freeza is DBS canon.

Hmm I don't remember that but how does RoF play out the same way in the manga if he didn't absorb SSJG in the manga's version of BoG? In the film RoF, he went from Saiyan Beyond God to Blue but in the Champa arc he went regular SSJ, God, and Blue instead so it seems Saiyan Beyond God was retconned.

That middle panel is lifted straight from the RoF manga.

To be fair, Toyotaro recycles panels and artwork a lot, and that's not even a panel showing Goku and Freeza fighting. I think SSJ Caulifla overwhelming Freeza gives some credibility to Freeza being SSJ level, though it's just as likely that Base Goku and Vegeta have progressed enough to be on the same level as U6 SSJs.

[Koitsukai]

There's also the fact that if indeed Goku would've absorbed SSG in his base form and that was a thing for the rest of the manga, then all this talk about Piccolo reaching SSB level actually means he has reached that level twice.
He reached BoG SSG (that is DBS base Goku), and then reached that power again by surpassing DBS SSG Goku. The same for Trunks, he is not just SSB level, he is SSB on top of BoG SSG level that now would be the base form level. The same for 17 and 18, and Gohan and everybody.
Gohan in two days went from Buu arc to above BoG God, which would be base level now, and then again surpassed SSG and closed in on ToP SSB. If it sounded like a stretch before when he was just going from 100 to over 5,000, now he is going from 100 to over 25,000,000.

Meaning every U6 member happens to be above SSG level yet they couldn't even be a decent contender at the ToP. Cabba would be RoF SSB level actually, if he is 50x stronger than base Vegeta who already was as strong as SSG, but was still no match for Golden Freeza, not even aided by SS Caulifla. So Freeza also doubled on his boost like the rest, he is Golden on top of Golden, now... and got there by hanging from a tree in hell.

There would be SSB-1(RoF or DBS regular SS) and SSB-2 (DBS SSB). And literally everybody would be between SSG-1 and SSB-2.

I'm reminded of people thinking everybody had surpassed Namek Freeza in Z in their base form, only for Toriyama to drop in BoG that it wasn't likely.

[ZombieVito]

There's also the fact that if indeed Goku would've absorbed SSG in his base form and that was a thing for the rest of the manga, then all this talk about Piccolo reaching SSB level actually means he has reached that level twice.
He reached BoG SSG (that is DBS base Goku), and then reached that power again by surpassing DBS SSG Goku. The same for Trunks, he is not just SSB level, he is SSB on top of BoG SSG level that now would be the base form level. The same for 17 and 18, and Gohan and everybody.
Gohan in two days went from Buu arc to above BoG God, which would be base level now, and then again surpassed SSG and closed in on ToP SSB. If it sounded like a stretch before when he was just going from 100 to over 5,000, now he is going from 100 to over 25,000,000.

Meaning every U6 member happens to be above SSG level yet they couldn't even be a decent contender at the ToP. Cabba would be RoF SSB level actually, if he is 50x stronger than base Vegeta who already was as strong as SSG, but was still no match for Golden Freeza, not even aided by SS Caulifla. So Freeza also doubled on his boost like the rest, he is Golden on top of Golden, now... and got there by hanging from a tree in hell.

There would be SSB-1(RoF or DBS regular SS) and SSB-2 (DBS SSB). And literally everybody would be between SSG-1 and SSB-2.

I'm reminded of people thinking everybody had surpassed Namek Freeza in Z in their base form, only for Toriyama to drop in BoG that it wasn't likely.

While I do think their bases are very strong (Commeson Vegeta did beat SS3 Gotenks after all), I don't think they are equal to BoG SSG. Not even close at all.

Speaking of the Gotenks fight. While Commeson Vegeta was without a doubt superior than him, Gotenks lasted the full 5 minutes of his fusion fighting him. If Commeson Vegeta was dimensions apart in strength then this wouldn't had happen. Gotenks would have defused in one hit.

Buuhan level for Commeson Vegeta is enough for his performance in that fight.

[Skar]

Buuhan level for Commeson Vegeta is enough for his performance in that fight.

I think that might be an example of filler/padding implying characters are way stronger than intended (or in this case details not from Toriyama). This fight didn't happen in the manga so that would mean there's a huge difference between their base in both versions. It would also mean that characters like Piccolo went from weaker than SSJ Gohan to above Buu level in the few days/weeks between RoF and Champa with no one commenting about it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Buuhan level for Commeson Vegeta is enough for his performance in that fight.

I think that might be an example of filler/padding implying characters are way stronger than intended (or in this case details not from Toriyama). This fight didn't happen in the manga so that would mean there's a huge difference between their base in both versions. It would also mean that characters like Piccolo went from weaker than SSJ Gohan to above Buu level in the few days/weeks between RoF and Champa with no one commenting about it.

To be fair, that's not a stretch that needs to be made. Piccolo is very obviously below base Goku and Vegeta in the anime at that point and consistently pointed as such during the U6/7 Tournament and a bit afterwards when Goku gets his Ki Onset Syndrome and notes even Piccolo could beat him at that point, to the point that his performance in the anime against Frost reflects the large difference by way of him being on the defensive the entire time and never engaging in direct combat.

[ZombieVito]

Buuhan level for Commeson Vegeta is enough for his performance in that fight.

I think that might be an example of filler/padding implying characters are way stronger than intended (or in this case details not from Toriyama). This fight didn't happen in the manga so that would mean there's a huge difference between their base in both versions. It would also mean that characters like Piccolo went from weaker than SSJ Gohan to above Buu level in the few days/weeks between RoF and Champa with no one commenting about it.

Why would Piccolo be above Boo level in the U6 arc? He fought an exhausted Frost completely on the defensive. Piccolo's strength has actually been pretty consistent in the anime.