Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[dbzfan7]

Beers said that Goku doesn't look strong enough to beat Freeza, but he looks like he can power-up by becoming Super Saiyan. Goku didn't argue, and Kaio said that Beers was correct. Which means that base Goku really is weaker than Freeza.

The reason this is being argued is because people don't like this fact. So they'll do anything to argue against it. Apparently Captain Ginyu can judge strength better than the God of Destruction.

[Gogeta8001]

Listen guys, i'm not going to go over this over and over again. This is the last time i'll be talking about this here.

This post is going to lead me into hot water, I know but I need to get this off my chest. Expect a different, rash side of me for this post only.

@DBZGTKOSDH

Back in Cell arc, Piccolo is implied to have surpassed Suppressed Perfect Cell (the one Super Trunks fought), and maybe even 50% SS Goku, because after training inside RoSaT, since he asks Goku if he believes that Piccolo has any chance against Cell, to which Goku answers no.

What does that show? Piccolo wouldn't be asking Goku about Cell if he thought he surpassed 50% MSS Goku.

Piccolo is much weaker than SS Goku, but much stronger than base Goku.

And you know this because? I'm not saying it's entirely impossible that he was stronger than the Base Saiyans but you haven't even said anything that proved your point. I can say Hercule > Buuhan just because it suits me well.

Now, fast forward to Boo arc. Both Goku & Piccolo were training during those years, and since we know that Goku didn't grow many times stronger (since he is still not far from Gohan's level, who didn't train at all, but only stronger instead of weaker than him), so Piccolo should still be stronger than the base Saiyans.

That's were your wrong again. CG Gohan had a pretty big lead over CG Goku. Buu Saga Goku surpassing CG Gohan is quite a feat considering the gap between them in the Cell Games. And once again, how does Piccolo come to play here? Another statement thrown out of the blue.

As for Dabra calling him trash, while saying that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta hide valuable energy, everyone was suppressed to zero, so Dabra & Babidi could somehow tell that the Saiyans were hiding valuable energy (since they can transform up to Super Saiyan 2, and Goku up to Super Saiyan 3), but they obviously couldn't measure their power, since they believed that Pui Pui should be enough to beat all 3 of them. So, it doesn't support the base Saiyans > Piccolo.

I want to know what exactly people are trying to prove with this. Dabura spitting Krillin and Piccolo has nothing with to do with anyone's power.

We know she is weaker than the base Saiyans & Piccolo, but there is no evidence to support that she is anywhere close to the base Saiyans.

Despite Base Kids holding their own against her in the Tournament.

Even though Vegeta says that he is still the strongest in the tournament in base (which would mean that base Vegeta > Piccolo & #18), it's more than likely that it's Vegeta acting high & mighty like he does all the time, especially based on facts that make him weaker than Piccolo.

You have a point with Vegeta acting cocky and stuff but yet again, where does Piccolo come in to play here?

And as for her fight with base "Mighty Mask", she wasn't going all out, since she thought she was fighting a random weakling. The Super Saiyan kids though seem to be stronger than her, since a suppressed ki blast from SS Trunks was considered dangerous for her.

I suppose a random weaking can fly and fight on par with someone that makes Freeza's power look like nothing. Interesting.

Kaioshin is talking about Goku in general there. He knows that Goku can get stronger by turning Super Saiyan, so he could be talking about Super Saiyan Goku being above him.

Kaioshin's comment aabout being surpassed by the Saiyans comes after he sees Yakon die. Sure, he saw SSJ Goku kill Yakon but he's the same guy who thought he, Gohan, and Vegeta would have to help to beat Yakon when Base Goku was above Yakon.

Let's also not forget that Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans. So, Kaioshin is stronger than the base Saiyans.

If anything, all of this shows Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo

Kaioshin said that Pui Pui is strong not because he sensed his power, he concluded that he was strong because Babidi only collects strong warriors. He doesn't say that the Saiyans or him are weaker, just that they should all be careful because if they are not careful, they could get damage & if they get damage, Boo will get more energy. He is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. However, it turns out that Pui Pui is a weakling. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Pui Pui.

And yet he was still scared of Pui-Pui. He wouldn't be scared about them getting damaged if he knew that Base Vegeta could easily one-shot him.

Again, Kaioshin says again that the Saiyans should be careful against Yakon, and suggests to team up against him. It turns out that Yakon is dangerous mostly because he sucks light energy, making everything dark, and giving advantage to Yakon, which increases the possibilities for Goku to get damage, and give Boo energy. Like before, he is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. It turns out that SS Goku is much stronger than Yakon, and 2 base Saiyans would be enough to beat him. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Yakon.

Kaioshin's statement comes before Yakon uses any of these abillities. He's s*itting his pants because he thinks that theres no one that can beat Yakon. Here's what the situations would be granted either Kaioshin > Yakon or vice versa.

Yakon > Kaioshin: We have to gang up on him if were going to win! We can't win on our own!

If Kaioshin > Yakon: If you don't want to help then screw you all! If your not going to help me, i'm going to one shot this monster my self! I'm already well capable of doing so you know!

We know that Super Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo >>> Freeza in Boo arc. However, there is no solid evidence that the base Saiyans are stronger than Full Power Freeza in the manga. And the BoG comes and states that the base Saiyans are weaker than Full Power Freeza. Beers says that base Goku doesn't look like he is strong enough to have beaten Freeza, and that he seems like he can power-up by turning Super Saiyan. Goku doesn't argue, and Kaio agrees with Beers. So, Freeza is stronger than the base Saiyans.

And I have been proving you otherwise with all my other points throughout this entire debate. Once again, you haevn't proven anything.

Any credibility that guy had went out the window when he claimed [whatever]

I just noticed this comment now, too. We really don't need to be saying stuff like this.

How many times do I have to explain that this isn't supposed to be about arguing to prove things as "right" or "wrong?" It's supposed to be about making power level lists as a quasi-art form, and giving friendly critique on the consistency and formation of the lists themselves. It's NOT the place to have debates over the same tired old in-universe crap.

Sure I could have phrased that statement better, but it doesn't change the fact that he's wrong. Kaioshin stated himself that he is only surpassed by the Super Saiyans. I'm all for constructive and creative critiquing, but there are things that are just flat out wrong.

And yet you haven't proved jacks*it. All you've been doing is going about the same BoG excuse and how i'm supposively in "denial" for believing the Freeza > Base Saiyans horse crap.

If you can't prove your point, then just don't bother at all.

And that class, is how you trump a power level thread.

Seriously? Your even worse than the guy above me. Your nothing more than a cheerleader for the Freeza > Base Saiyans club. Do me a favour and GTFO.

Beers said that Goku doesn't look strong enough to beat Freeza, but he looks like he can power-up by becoming Super Saiyan. Goku didn't argue, and Kaio said that Beers was correct. Which means that base Goku really is weaker than Freeza.

The reason this is being argued is because people don't like this fact. So they'll do anything to argue against it. Apparently Captain Ginyu can judge strength better than the God of Destruction.

Once again, the same BoG excuse despite it contrdicitng the manga. I'm not even going to bother.

Just so you know, i'm not going to reply after this post. If you want to believe your little Freeza > Base Saiyans horse s*it after this, that's fine with me. I don't want to be bothered with this debate seeing how the majority of the evidence points to Base Saiyans > Freeza.

/rant

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Back in Cell arc, Piccolo is implied to have surpassed Suppressed Perfect Cell (the one Super Trunks fought), and maybe even 50% SS Goku, because after training inside RoSaT, since he asks Goku if he believes that Piccolo has any chance against Cell, to which Goku answers no.

What does that show? Piccolo wouldn't be asking Goku about Cell if he thought he surpassed 50% MSS Goku.

It shows that Piccolo has powered-up significantly (according to Goku), so he is not below the base Saiyans.

Piccolo is much weaker than SS Goku, but much stronger than base Goku.

And you know this because? I'm not saying it's entirely impossible that he was stronger than the Base Saiyans but you haven't even said anything that proved your point. I can say (the H-word) > Buuhan just because it suits me well.

I know that because of this:

Spoiler:

Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5
Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?”
Piccolo: “Indeed.”
Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.”
Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…”
Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.”

And this:

Spoiler:

Piccolo can stand up against Cell Jr., while tired Goku cannot. Which shows that Piccolo > Tired SS Goku > base Goku, and that Cell Jr. is not too far stronger than Piccolo.

Now, fast forward to Boo arc. Both Goku & Piccolo were training during those years, and since we know that Goku didn't grow many times stronger (since he is still not far from Gohan's level, who didn't train at all, but only stronger instead of weaker than him), so Piccolo should still be stronger than the base Saiyans.

That's were your wrong again. CG Gohan had a pretty big lead over CG Goku. Buu Saga Goku surpassing CG Gohan is quite a feat considering the gap between them in the Cell Games. And once again, how does Piccolo come to play here? Another statement thrown out of the blue.

Goku's plan was to have Gohan to get angry to defeat Cell, implying that non-enraged SS Gohan < Cell. And since Goku wasn't far weaker than Cell, Gohan isn't far stronger than Goku. Boo arc Goku is stated to be stronger than Enraged Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by much.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 458 (DBZ 264), P8.1-4
Context: as Goku and Vegeta are about to fight
Goku: “I don’t wanna take any damage from you and have it become Majin Boo’s energy…So I’m gonna end this quickly, at maximum power.”
Vegeta: “I’m looking forward to this…Show me the fruits of your training in the afterlife. *Goku transforms into Super Saiyan 2* Just as I’d expect. Your power is greater than Gohan’s was back then!”

Chapter: 465 (DBZ 271), P2.3
Context: as Vegeta fights Boo
Piccolo: “He’s already surpassed Super Saiyan as well…This is tremendous power…Perhaps even greater than Gohan’s when he fought Cell…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.3-4
Goku: “…I’ll be frank. It’s no use. I can’t defeat [Majin Boo]. [ ] …There was practically no gap between Vegeta’s true strength and mine…And Majin Boo is still fine despite Vegeta sacrificing himself, right? Sorry, but I couldn’t win, no matter what.”

Piccolo says that SS2 Vegeta (who is equal with SS2 Goku) is perhaps stronger than Enraged SS2 Gohan, and since Vegeta confirms that Goku is stronger than Gohan, it means that Goku isn't much stronger than Enraged Gohan. And since Goku's power was similar enough with non-enraged Gohan for them to be able to use Fusion, who is as strong as CG non-enraged Gohan (according to the Daizenshuu, so IMO, he got "weaker" because of his rusty skills & because he couldn't get a rage boost easily. Vegeta implied that Gohan was strong enough to beat Dabra, but with his shitty skills, it was taking too long. In the same chapter, Goku calls Dabra as stronger that they thought because of his magical abilities, so it's not illogical to assume that Vegeta calls Gohan weaker because of his rusty skills.), it means that the rage-boost Gohan got in the Cell Games wasn't enormous, and that Goku didn't get strong enough to surpass Piccolo in base.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P5.2
Goku: “That’s it…That’s fine, Cell! Get Gohan angry…! If you do, you’ll experience true fear for the first time…

”Chapter: 405 (DBZ 211), P10.4, P10.6
Goku: “…Wait for Gohan to get angry…! He’ll…probably…unleash his true power through anger, and suddenly display ferocious strength [ ] …To defeat Cell…The only thing we can do is place our hopes in this power of Gohan’s…”

As for Dabra calling him trash, while saying that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta hide valuable energy, everyone was suppressed to zero, so Dabra & Babidi could somehow tell that the Saiyans were hiding valuable energy (since they can transform up to Super Saiyan 2, and Goku up to Super Saiyan 3), but they obviously couldn't measure their power, since they believed that Pui Pui should be enough to beat all 3 of them. So, it doesn't support the base Saiyans > Piccolo.

I want to know what exactly people are trying to prove with this. Dabura spitting Krillin and Piccolo has nothing with to do with anyone's power.

It does.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

We know she is weaker than the base Saiyans & Piccolo, but there is no evidence to support that she is anywhere close to the base Saiyans.

Despite Base Kids holding their own against her in the Tournament.

And as for her fight with base "Mighty Mask", she wasn't going all out, since she thought she was fighting a random weakling. The Super Saiyan kids though seem to be stronger than her, since a suppressed ki blast from SS Trunks was considered dangerous for her.

I suppose a random weaking can fly and fight on par with someone that makes Freeza's power look like nothing. Interesting.

Because #18 wasn't fighting seriously, and she can't sense ki from what we know. She was careful not to go all out against Mighty Mask, because she didn't know if he was weak or strong compared to her.

Even though Vegeta says that he is still the strongest in the tournament in base (which would mean that base Vegeta > Piccolo & #18), it's more than likely that it's Vegeta acting high & mighty like he does all the time, especially based on facts that make him weaker than Piccolo.

You have a point with Vegeta acting cocky and stuff but yet again, where does Piccolo come in to play here?

Because Piccolo is in the tournament, and Vegeta says that he is the strongest in base, which is wrong IMO.

Kaioshin is talking about Goku in general there. He knows that Goku can get stronger by turning Super Saiyan, so he could be talking about Super Saiyan Goku being above him.

Kaioshin's comment aabout being surpassed by the Saiyans comes after he sees Yakon die. Sure, he saw SSJ Goku kill Yakon but he's the same guy who thought he, Gohan, and Vegeta would have to help to beat Yakon when Base Goku was above Yakon.

We know that base Goku & Gohan would be enough to beat Yakon, but we don't know if base Goku is above Yakon. And again, Kaioshin wasn't afraid that Goku would lose, he was afraid that he would get damaged. If everyone had teamed up against Yakon, no one would get any damage. It turned out that Goku was more than enough. Kaioshin was wrong.

Let's also not forget that Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans. So, Kaioshin is stronger than the base Saiyans.

If anything, all of this shows Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo

But we've seen that Piccolo > base Saiyans.

Kaioshin said that Pui Pui is strong not because he sensed his power, he concluded that he was strong because Babidi only collects strong warriors. He doesn't say that the Saiyans or him are weaker, just that they should all be careful because if they are not careful, they could get damage & if they get damage, Boo will get more energy. He is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. However, it turns out that Pui Pui is a weakling. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Pui Pui.

And yet he was still scared of Pui-Pui. He wouldn't be scared about them getting damaged if he knew that Base Vegeta could easily one-shot him.

He was paranoid. He overestimated Pui Pui, and he was warning the Saiyans all the time not to underestimate him because if Babidi took him under him, he must be strong. Turns out he was wrong. Pui Pui was weak.

Again, Kaioshin says again that the Saiyans should be careful against Yakon, and suggests to team up against him. It turns out that Yakon is dangerous mostly because he sucks light energy, making everything dark, and giving advantage to Yakon, which increases the possibilities for Goku to get damage, and give Boo energy. Like before, he is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. It turns out that SS Goku is much stronger than Yakon, and 2 base Saiyans would be enough to beat him. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Yakon.

Kaioshin's statement comes before Yakon uses any of these abillities. He's s*itting his pants because he thinks that theres no one that can beat Yakon. Here's what the situations would be granted either Kaioshin > Yakon or vice versa.

Because Kaioshin had already heard about Yakon (check chapter 450 or episode 223), and most likely also heard about his abilities.

Yakon > Kaioshin: We have to gang up on him if were going to win! We can't win on our own!

If Kaioshin > Yakon: If you don't want to help then screw you all! If your not going to help me, i'm going to one shot this monster my self! I'm already well capable of doing so you know!

Again, was afraid that Goku would get damage. He only said to team up against Yakon when Yakon almost sliced Goku, not because he didn't believe that Goku couldn't win, but because if everyone had teamed-up Yakon, they would definitely overpower him & none of them would get any damage. Kaioshin wanted to eliminate any risk of getting damage, and he couldn't judge everyone's strength properly because he was too scared. He was like "Ah! Pui Pui & Yakon are Babidi's minions! Meaning that they are strong! Be careful, if you get damage, Majin Boo will be revived and it will be the end of the world! If we team up against Babidi's minions, then definitely none of us will get any damage!", but it turned out that base Vegeta was stronger than Pui Pui, and base Goku & Gohan together would be enough to beat Yakon.

Just so you know, i'm not going to reply after this post. If you want to believe your little Freeza > Base Saiyans horse s*it after this, that's fine with me. I don't want to be bothered with this debate seeing how the majority of the evidence points to Base Saiyans > Freeza.

And I have yet to see your evidence...

[TheMightyOzaru]

You can call the Freeza > base Saiyans thing horse shit all you want, but no evidence provided by the manga proves the base Saiyans being stronger. We even have direct confirmation from Beers, whom was created and written by Toriyama.

[Gogeta8001]

Okay, I will admit I lost my temper yeterday. I wasn't having the best day ever and so that was reflected in my post. I'm sorry for using profanity and other unecessary stuff that shouldn't have been said.

But make no mistake about it, I stand by what I said yesterday. I have yet to see any convincing Freeza > Base Saiyans material other than BoG in this particular disscussion. I have already went through the reasons that supports the former and i'm not going to go through another 5 million pages about this.

If you want to believe what you believe, that's fine. Were not going to agree on everything here.

[khalildh]

I am using Goku during the Buu saga as my focal point and all levels will be relative to him. I will be using the 50x SSJ boost, but because there is no definite way to know for certain what the other boosts are I will use a somewhat arbitrary boost for SSJ 2 and 3. Because this is relative I will set Goku's base at 10.

1 = 1 million in scouter power level.

The Boo's power levels are just the required power level needed to beat them since (Majin Boo's power level is a lie)

Also same goes for the androids, I think their actual battling potential is close to base androids and humans, but there machine durability and endurance means that you either outlast them or have a supreme amount of Ki used against them. Perfect Cell is basically is a Saiyan with android batteries, that make it so his minimum output is greater than it would be otherwise.

[CENTER]

Buu Saga

Goku: 10
SSJ: 500
SSJ2: 1000 (100x base or 2x increase)
SSJ3: 4000 (400x base or 4x increase), (Against Majin Buu 2000)

Using these numbers I will fill in the rest of the casts power levels.
If you think something is off with the list I would ask you make an argument as to why someone should be elsewhere.

Vegeta: 8
SSJ: 400
SSJ2: 800
Majin Vegeta: 10 (1.25x base increase)
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta: 1000 (125x base or 1.25 increase of SSJ2)

Gohan: 5
SSJ: 250
SSJ2: 500
Ultimate Gohan: 3000 (600x base increase)

Goten: 2.85
SSJ:142.5

Trunks: 3
SSJ: 150

Piccolo: 300

Gotenks: 20
SSJ: 1000
SSJ3: 2000 (unperfected SSJ3 only 25% effective)

Vegito: 200
Super Vegito: 10,000

Dabura: 300

Majin Buu: 1000

Super Buu: 2000
Buutenks with Piccolo absorbed: 4300
Buucollo with Goten and Trunks: 2306
Buuhan: 5306


Kid Buu: 3500

Cell Saga

These are my multipliers for the inbetween Super Saiyan forms

PSSJ x60 base
USSJ x55 base
USSJ2 x80 base

[CENTER]Cell games[/CENTER]

Goku: 5
PSSJ: 300

Vegeta: 5
SSJ: 250
USSJ: 275

Gohan:4
Angered: 6
PSSJ: 240
Angered PSSJ: 300
SSJ2: 600

Piccolo: 240 (after fusing with kami)

Trunks: 4
SSJ: 200
USSJ: 220
USSJ2: 320

Perfect Cell: 360 (Unsupressed)
Super Perfect Cell: 600


[CENTER]Android Saga[/CENTER]


Trunks: 3.8
SSJ: 190

Goku: 4
SSJ: 200
Virus: .5 (Constant Decrease)
Virus SSJ: 25

Vegeta: 4
SSJ: 200

Gohan: 3
SSJ: 150

Piccolo: 150

Krillin: 3.5

Yamcha: 3

Tien: 3.5

Chaotzu: 1

Android 18: 200

Android 17: 210

Android 16: 230

Imperfect Cell: 200

Semi-perfect Cell: 230

Cell: 300 (suppressed)

End of Frieza Saga (used to remain relative)

Frieza 100% Final Form: 150

Goku: 3
SSJ: 150[/CENTER]

[TheMightyOzaru]

Super Buu >>> Kid Buu. Gohan >>>>> Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

What is "PSSJ?"

[khalildh]

Super Buu >>> Kid Buu. Gohan >>>>> Goku.

Plot disagrees with you.

[khalildh]

What is "PSSJ?"

Perfected Super Saiyan, sometimes referred to as Mastered Super Saiyan. It is used by Goku when he fights Cell(or can be thought of as an upgrade to base SSJ).

[dbzfan7]

Oh shit we got a CODE ORANGE and a CODE PINK guys. Every person for themselves.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Super Buu >>> Kid Buu. Gohan >>>>> Goku.

Plot disagrees with you.

Both logic and the plot disagrees with you. There's no plausible way that Goku can be stronger than Gohan in the Buu saga.

Oh shit we got a CODE ORANGE and a CODE PINK guys. Every person for themselves.

What are code pink and code orange ?
EDIT: Wait NVM, I think I know what they mean .

[khalildh]

Super Buu >>> Kid Buu. Gohan >>>>> Goku.

Plot disagrees with you.

Both logic and the plot disagrees with you. There's no plausible way that Goku can be stronger than Gohan in the Buu saga.

Oh shit we got a CODE ORANGE and a CODE PINK guys. Every person for themselves.

What are code pink and code orange ?

I would explain to you why it is not only plausible, but probable, however I doubt you are willing to concede that Chou Gohan may be weaker than Kid Boo. So it is really pointless. Anyway other than you disagreeing with the Kid Boo requires a stronger power level than Super Boo to defeat is the rest of the list good.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You can try to explain all you want. Your efforts will turn up fruitless because what you believe simply isn't so. SSJ3 Gotenks HAS to be at least more than twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku, that's a fact. SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. That is truth whether you like it or not. the SSJ3 multiplier is 8 times SSJ while it's 4 times SSJ2. Lets use basic math to prove a point
SSJ2 Goku 1 x 4 = 4
SSJ Gotenks 1.1 x 8 = 8.8
The results speak for themselves.

[khalildh]

You can try to explain all you want. Your efforts will turn up fruitless because what you believe simply isn't so. SSJ3 Gotenks HAS to be at least more than twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku, that's a fact. SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. That is truth whether you like it or not. the SSJ3 multiplier is 8 times SSJ while it's 4 times SSJ2. Lets use basic math to prove a point
SSJ2 Goku 1 x 4 = 4
SSJ Gotenks 1.1 x 8 = 8.8
The results speak for themselves.

There is nothing in the manga that is conclusive that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta. Also having single a multiplier for SSJ3 is odd considering how the story suggests, there is a difference between dead SSJ3 Goku, dead SSJ3 Goku FP, living SSJ3 Goku, living Goku FP. It is arbitrary to suggest that Goku SSJ3 and Gotenks SSJ3's multipliers are the same when there is nothing that directly relates Goku and Gotenks other than.

Base Gotenks < Majin Boo
SSJ Gotenks < Super Boo
SSJ3 Gotenks ~ Super Boo
MSSJ2 Vegeta ~ Majin Boo
SSJ3 Goku > Majin Boo
Chou Gohan less than 2x > Super Boo
Burly Boo > Super Boo
Kid Boo ? Burly Boo ---> 2 likely options Kid Boo > Burly Boo he kept the Kaioshin powers that is why he is able to spit out fat Boo or Kid Boo (likely not less than 1/2) >Burly Boo
The next question would be is 1/2 Burly Boo > Super Boo. There is no way to know for certain.

Goku SSJ3> Kid Boo

Goku does say he will die against Super Boo, but he also goes to SSJ3 to almost fight Bootenks. The anime is rather speculative on the matter, but I will discount it altogether because Goku is known to lie during the Boo saga to let the children fight, and we don't know if he is referring to if he remains small on the outside or not.


The ending narration does seemingly contradict itself with it saying that Goku is stronger than he was previously. I mean I could honestly make a decent argument that Majin Boo, Super Boo, and Kid Boo have similar levels of Ki, and while Super Boo may have more strength Kid Boo has more destructive potential.

It seems like you are obstinate in your views though.

[TheMightyOzaru]

You can try to explain all you want. Your efforts will turn up fruitless because what you believe simply isn't so. SSJ3 Gotenks HAS to be at least more than twice as strong as SSJ3 Goku, that's a fact. SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta. That is truth whether you like it or not. the SSJ3 multiplier is 8 times SSJ while it's 4 times SSJ2. Lets use basic math to prove a point
SSJ2 Goku 1 x 4 = 4
SSJ Gotenks 1.1 x 8 = 8.8
The results speak for themselves.

There is nothing in the manga that is conclusive that SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Majin Vegeta.

What? There's plenty of evidence. 1. when Super Gotenks is born, Piccolo doesn't seem concerned by a lack of power at all. In fact he was quite impressed. 2. Gotenks has a speed feat that Goku and Vegeta never displayed. 3. Gotenks unlocks SSJ3 in less than 10 days when it took Goku several years. That's plenty of evidence for SSJ Gotenks being stronger than SSJ2 Vegeta. There's also Goku claiming he stood no chance against Super Buu, yet was gung-ho to fight Pure Buu. That's pretty conclusive. Honestly there's a lot more proof for Gotenks being stronger than Goku, but I think you get the picture. I would also like to point out that nothing suggests the SSJ3 multiplier ever varied. I'm also not obstinate. Super > Pure Buu is a fact.

[Kamiccolo9]

For the love of.... please tell me this isn't happening, AGAIN. Hasn't there been enough of this in the last few months?

[TheMightyOzaru]

For the love of.... please tell me this isn't happening, AGAIN. Hasn't there been enough of this in the last few months?

I honestly don't understand why there are still people who believe Pure Buu is stronger than Super Buu. All the support in regards to Pure Buu being the strongest was debunked long ago.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks were stronger than Evil Boo, while SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined were stated to be no match for Evil Boo, except if they use Fusion/Potara. Then, SS3 Goku can definitely manage something against Pure Boo.

Yeeeeaaaaahhhhh... Pure Boo just can't be stronger than Evil Boo.

[khalildh]

U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks were stronger than Evil Boo, while SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined were stated to be no match for Evil Boo, except if they use Fusion/Potara. Then, SS3 Goku can definitely manage something against Pure Boo.

Yeeeeaaaaahhhhh... Pure Boo just can't be stronger than Evil Boo.

Unless of course Goku was lying.