How strong was Dabura?

[TheMightyOzaru]

He's in a suppressed/rested state while fighting Goten. He has one bang when he is a FPSSJ.

Actually he has like, three bangs as a FPSSJ. His whole hair-style was different then.

No, no he doesn't...

[Fionordequester]

Looks like he does to me. Or was there another spot you were thinking of where he was going FPSSJ?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Really? I really don't have to explain Kid Gohan and Adult Gohan have different hair styles do I ?

[Fionordequester]

Really? I really don't have to explain Kid Gohan and Adult Gohan have different hair styles do I ?

If you're talking about when Gohan got angry at Spopovitch, or transformed against Kibito, that was around the time that people say that Mr. Toriyama changed his Super Saiyan designs because of Movie 10 being underway, so that doesn't count.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That wasn't a design change though. Gohan has that hair style because He's battered and beaten.

[Fionordequester]

That wasn't a design change though. Gohan has that hair style because He's battered and beaten.

And how do you know that? Majin Vegeta was battered and beaten by Fat Buu, and I don't see the lightning going out of his aura. In fact, I can't think of any time that that affected the look of a Super Saiyan transformation.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's not a very good example. We're talking about hair changes not aura changes. Vegeta's hair never changes. I suppose I don't know if that's the case, but then, how do you know it IS the case. That aside though, SSJ2 has had a constant design throughout the series. Why would Gohan be the exception? Gohan doesn't share any traits of a SSJ2.

[Fionordequester]

That's not a very good example. We're talking about hair changes not aura changes. Vegeta's hair never changes. I suppose I don't know if that's the case, but then, how do you know it IS the case.

That what is the case? That Mr. Toriyama was tweaking his design of SSJ2 Gohan? I don't know. But the point is, you don't know that WASN'T the case either. And so, because of the fact that SSJ2 makes more sense in terms of plot (and ignoring artwork), I choose to believe that Gohan was SSJ2.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Why does it make more sense? That's forgoing what's right in front of you to satisfy your own selfish wants. Gohan is drawn as a SSJ and Dabura is his relative equal. Gohan doesn't need SSJ2 to fight him.

[Fionordequester]

Why does it make more sense? That's forgoing what's right in front of you to satisfy your own selfish wants. Gohan is drawn as a SSJ and Dabura is his relative equal. Gohan doesn't need SSJ2 to fight him.

You still haven't answered my question of "how do we know Mr. Toriyama wasn't going back and forth on the design?". And...selfish? I'm not just debating because I don't want to admit that I'm wrong you know. I'm saying SSJ2 makes more sense because SSJ1 assumes that...

Goku's line about Dabura's strength should either not be taken literally, or that Goku was referring to the weakest possible Perfect Cell he could have thought of despite never once thinking of him in those terms during the Cell Games arc, that Gohan was somehow angrier at the tournament than he was in facing the likes of Dabura and Majin Buu, that Akira Toriyama would actually be that subtle in his story telling when he's NEVER been that way before, that the Daizenshuu 7 guide about Gohan being SSJ2 was simply a typo, that Vegeta and Goku apparently didn't make anything of Gohan not using SSJ2.

And then there's the fact that Vegeta not thinking that Dabura was anything less than "tough but not unbeatable" apparently doesn't put Dabura above SSJ1 Gohan tier, that Gohan could somehow survive a blast from Fat Buu at only SSJ1. And then there's Gohan being surprised about Fat Buu being able to own Dabura despite Dabura apparently being only SSJ1 tier. This by the way, is after Gohan already stated that he would need SSJ2 at full power just to do a darn thing to Fat Buu.

If I were to just say that I agreed with Gohan being SSJ1, I woudn't be any better than the dozens and dozens of people who would've went up to the maximum voltage in the Milgram experiments. I would only be saying that to conform to the popular viewpoint! I wouldn't be saying it because I actually agreed, and that's a horrible thing to do.

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's a completely baseless assumption. It's not a popular viewpoint. It's a fact. Gohan was drawn as a SSJ therefore he is.

[Fionordequester]

That's a completely baseless assumption. It's not a popular viewpoint. It's a fact. Gohan was drawn as a SSJ therefore he is.

Then why can't you answer my question? How do you know that FPSSJ Gohan is drawn with one bang if we can't prove that we ever actually SEE FPSSJ Gohan?

[TheMightyOzaru]

That's a completely baseless assumption. It's not a popular viewpoint. It's a fact. Gohan was drawn as a SSJ therefore he is.

Then why can't you answer my question?

What question? All your saying is how do you know Toriyama didn't contemplate a design change? I answered your question by saying it's a baseless assumption that argues in favor of your viewpoint. If you can't prove that this is the case, it's a pointless argument. We HAVE proof that Gohan's a FPSSJ in his fight with Dabura. There is a lack of sparks, a sharper face, and a wilder aura. Do I have to bring a picture of SSJ2 Gohan in here to prove a point?

[Fionordequester]

What question? All your saying is how do you know Toriyama didn't contemplate a design change? I answered your question by saying it's a baseless assumption that argues in favor of your viewpoint. If you can't prove that this is the case, it's a pointless argument.

That's not an answer. Or at least, it's not an adequate answer.

We HAVE proof that Gohan's a FPSSJ in his fight with Dabura.

It's not proof if you can't disprove my theory. Besides, the only thing I see is the lack of sparks. The aura and face look about the same to me.

[TheMightyOzaru]

It's a baseless theory. There is no point in arguing a theory if there is 0 proof for it. I could go around saying Krillin can fart mustard out his nipples, yet you can't disprove that now can you? No, the aura and face don't match what was shown at the Budokai .

[Fionordequester]

It's a baseless theory. There is no point in arguing a theory if there is 0 proof for it.

There is proof of it though. First of all, there's the Daizenshuu 7. Now you can argue typoes, but again, that's theorycrafting. Secondly, we do theorize that Mr. Toriyama was changing his artstyle around that time, right? First of all, I think that's already a big assumption considering that Mr. Toriyama didn't have any qualms about giving Super Saiyan a white aura in "History of Trunks" despite it contradicting the Anime.

But if we go by that logic, it's only logical to think that perhaps him drawing Gohan differently in his fight with Dabura was simply a result of him going back and forth on what he wanted.

[Saiga]

That's a completely baseless assumption. It's not a popular viewpoint. It's a fact. Gohan was drawn as a SSJ therefore he is.

Methinks you don't know what a fact is. Only the GT Perfect Files or Budokai Tenkaichi 3 say it is a fact, and those are both rather dubious sources.

[TheMightyOzaru]

YOU can THINK all you want. You have 0 proof backing up your claims.

That's a completely baseless assumption. It's not a popular viewpoint. It's a fact. Gohan was drawn as a SSJ therefore he is.

Methinks you don't know what a fact is. Only the GT Perfect Files or Budokai Tenkaichi 3 say it is a fact, and those are both rather dubious sources.

I have the manga backing me up . Gohan has no qualities of a SSJ2 in his fight with Dabura.

[Fionordequester]

YOU can THINK all you want. You have 0 proof backing up your claims.

The same goes for you though.

[Saiga]

The qualities of a Super Saiyan 2 are themselves only what YOU think they are.

No matter what you say, it's not going to change that "Super Saiyan 2 is like this only, FACT!" is nothing more than how you interpret it, and given that it is never made clear in the story there is no problem with others taking a different stance.