SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku By How Much?

[Draken]

Too bad they already stated that Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku + Vegeta working together.

Dude, he literally JUST explained it to you, Super Buu had sensed SSJ3 Goku before. I don't understand how you know Fat Buu is stronger than the SSJ2's but still think SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Super Buu when the multipliers make that nearly impossible.

[dbzfan7]

Too bad they already stated that Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku + Vegeta working together.

Dude, he literally JUST explained it to you, Super Buu had sensed SSJ3 Goku before. I don't understand how you know Fat Buu is stronger than the SSJ2's but still think SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Super Buu when the multipliers make that nearly impossible.

In the manga Bootenks clearly states he remembers Goku as the transformation guy. So chances are he should remember his power as well and dismissed it. They also did state that even if the SSJ2's teamed up they would still be crushed by Fat Boo.

[Draken]

Too bad they already stated that Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku + Vegeta working together.

Dude, he literally JUST explained it to you, Super Buu had sensed SSJ3 Goku before. I don't understand how you know Fat Buu is stronger than the SSJ2's but still think SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Super Buu when the multipliers make that nearly impossible.

In the manga Bootenks clearly states he remembers Goku as the transformation guy. So chances are he should remember his power as well and dismissed it. They also id state that Even if the SSJ2's teamed up they would still be crushed by Fat Boo.

Yea I'm not sure if Axiom here read the manga or is basing everything he has off the English Dub.

In that case Pure Buu > Buuhan.

[RandomGuy96]

Super-Buu only had sensed Gotenks and Gohan, and once he absorbed Gotenks he was clearly more powerful than everyone (including Goku - the Grand Kai points this out)
Inside of Super-Buu, Goku is a SSJ2 level with Vegeta, obviously he's not serious about beating/fighting Buu at this stage - Buu is stronger than 2 SSJ2s and like Goku explained to Vegeta earlier, SSJ3 is a time limited emergency use only state. Goku's fear comes from the fact they are inside of BUU, a world controlled by him and that the are small, nothing more. From the mere fact that Goku even considers Vegeta's help when he plans to save the boys and revert Buu, means he was planning to attack the Fat-Buu with Vegeta's help and not use his transformation.

It's really quite simple.

He sensed Goku when he got there. Goku powered up into SS3 to fight him and Buutenks remained completely unimpressed. I just said this.

...are you being serious with this explanation? I genuinely don't know by this point.

Goku is not scared because they are inside Buu; he outright says that if they go OUTSIDE, then Super Buu will still kill them easily. He also outright says earlier that he can't beat any Buu but Fat Buu without fusion. That's the whole plan here.

If Goku wants to attack Fat Buu with Vegeta's help, then he's the dumbest fucking person in the world, because it was already established that Fat Buu was waaaaaay too strong for teamwork to be a viable option, even if you threw all the Super Saiyans and Super Saiyan 2s at him:

Chapter: 467 (DBZ 273), P1.2-3
Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…”

Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P5.6-7
Goku: “Damn it! If either Vegeta or Gohan were alive, maybe we could have managed something…”
Piccolo: “…No, it probably wouldn’t matter how many people went at him…He wasn’t at that level…”

Oh, and on top of all of that, once Super reverts to Pure, Goku suddenly says that he can handle him (well, actually, he says 'we', so I guess he wanted to fight Pure Buu as a SS2 as well), and then goes SS3 to fight him later. Like, instantly, it's the first thing he does when the fight starts, after he established that Buu was at a level he could now handle. Obviously he wasn't relying on his transformation. Obviously.

Yea I'm not sure if Axiom here read the manga or is basing everything he has off the English Dub.

In that case Pure Buu > Buuhan.

That's the case in the Japanese anime too.

[Axiom]

Too bad they already stated that Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku + Vegeta working together.

Dude, he literally JUST explained it to you, Super Buu had sensed SSJ3 Goku before. I don't understand how you know Fat Buu is stronger than the SSJ2's but still think SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Super Buu when the multipliers make that nearly impossible.

In the manga Bootenks clearly states he remembers Goku as the transformation guy. So chances are he should remember his power as well and dismissed it. They also did state that even if the SSJ2's teamed up they would still be crushed by Fat Boo.

Buu didn't learn how to sense Ki until AFTER he became Super Buu. This is how he found Piccolo and the boys.

[Draken]

Too bad they already stated that Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku + Vegeta working together.

Dude, he literally JUST explained it to you, Super Buu had sensed SSJ3 Goku before. I don't understand how you know Fat Buu is stronger than the SSJ2's but still think SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Super Buu when the multipliers make that nearly impossible.

In the manga Bootenks clearly states he remembers Goku as the transformation guy. So chances are he should remember his power as well and dismissed it. They also did state that even if the SSJ2's teamed up they would still be crushed by Fat Boo.

Buu didn't learn how to sense Ki until AFTER he became Super Buu. This is how he found Piccolo and the boys.

RG just explained everything to you in nice simple words, I suggest you read that and then try to form a rebuttal instead of nit-picking responses.

[dbzfan7]

Too bad they already stated that Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku + Vegeta working together.

Dude, he literally JUST explained it to you, Super Buu had sensed SSJ3 Goku before. I don't understand how you know Fat Buu is stronger than the SSJ2's but still think SSJ3 Goku > Pure Buu > Super Buu when the multipliers make that nearly impossible.

In the manga Bootenks clearly states he remembers Goku as the transformation guy. So chances are he should remember his power as well and dismissed it. They also did state that even if the SSJ2's teamed up they would still be crushed by Fat Boo.

Buu didn't learn how to sense Ki until AFTER he became Super Buu. This is how he found Piccolo and the boys.

The point is he remembers how the fight went. It doesn't matter if he couldn't sense ki. From the fight alone he could already tell how Goku fought and at what level he would be at. Just like How Captain Ginyu was roughly correct on Goku power level (excluding Kaio-ken). Ginyu said he should peak around 85,000 while the Daiz gave Goku a 90,000 score. If Ginyu could be that close without sensing ki then I would say Boo who has Piccolo's intellect could do the same.

[Axiom]

The point is he remembers how the fight went. It doesn't matter if he couldn't sense ki. From the fight alone he could already tell how Goku fought and at what level he would be at. Just like How Captain Ginyu was roughly correct on Goku power level (excluding Kaio-ken). Ginyu said he should peak around 85,000 while the Daiz gave Goku a 90,000 score. If Ginyu could be that close without sensing ki then I would say Boo who has Piccolo's intellect could do the same.

Uh huh, just like Napa could tell how much stronger Goku was without sensing him. Buu didn't know how strong Goku was - there is nothing else to it.

http://www.manga2u.me/Dragon_Ball/487/12/

Guess we only listen to the manga when it serves the points we want to make.

[dbzfan7]

The point is he remembers how the fight went. It doesn't matter if he couldn't sense ki. From the fight alone he could already tell how Goku fought and at what level he would be at. Just like How Captain Ginyu was roughly correct on Goku power level (excluding Kaio-ken). Ginyu said he should peak around 85,000 while the Daiz gave Goku a 90,000 score. If Ginyu could be that close without sensing ki then I would say Boo who has Piccolo's intellect could do the same.

Uh huh, just like Napa could tell how much stronger Goku was without sensing him. Buu didn't know how strong Goku was - there is nothing else to it.

Nappa is an idiot. Captain Ginyu is not. Notice how Captain Ginyu was the only one to catch onto Goku while the other Ginyu Force members couldn't understand Goku's power. Boo has Piccolo's intellect which should be greater than Ginyu's. Boo could obviously tell how strong Goku is. Especially now that he has Piccolo in him who also has an idea.

[Draken]

The point is he remembers how the fight went. It doesn't matter if he couldn't sense ki. From the fight alone he could already tell how Goku fought and at what level he would be at. Just like How Captain Ginyu was roughly correct on Goku power level (excluding Kaio-ken). Ginyu said he should peak around 85,000 while the Daiz gave Goku a 90,000 score. If Ginyu could be that close without sensing ki then I would say Boo who has Piccolo's intellect could do the same.

Uh huh, just like Napa could tell how much stronger Goku was without sensing him. Buu didn't know how strong Goku was - there is nothing else to it.

Wow I guess Ginyu > Fat Buu in terms of combat experience then? This multi-million year old god eating monster loses to a freak mutant. Yup. Nappa is very relevant.

[Axiom]

The point is he remembers how the fight went. It doesn't matter if he couldn't sense ki. From the fight alone he could already tell how Goku fought and at what level he would be at. Just like How Captain Ginyu was roughly correct on Goku power level (excluding Kaio-ken). Ginyu said he should peak around 85,000 while the Daiz gave Goku a 90,000 score. If Ginyu could be that close without sensing ki then I would say Boo who has Piccolo's intellect could do the same.

Uh huh, just like Napa could tell how much stronger Goku was without sensing him. Buu didn't know how strong Goku was - there is nothing else to it.

Nappa is an idiot. Captain Ginyu is not. Notice how Captain Ginyu was the only one to catch onto Goku while the other Ginyu Force members couldn't understand Goku's power. Boo has Piccolo's intellect which should be greater than Ginyu's. Boo could obviously tell how strong Goku is.

HOW?! This is probably some of the most twisted logic I have ever heard, and you want to talk about my Goku wanking?

[Draken]

Buu absorbed Piccolo? How the fuck else do you think Buu has Piccolo's knowledge, mind reading?

Have you been fucking reading anything or are you still nit-picking?

[TheMightyOzaru]

yeah... Buu absorbed Piccolo. He even displayed some of Piccolo's knowledge .

[dbzfan7]

HOW?! This is probably some of the most twisted logic I have ever heard, and you want to talk about my Goku wanking?

How is it wrong. Your the only one who doesn't get it. How is it twisted logic when everyone but you gets it.

You call my logic twisted when nobody here understands your logic. I think u got it backwards. When people understand my logic and no one understands yours. I don't think i'm in the wrong.

[Axiom]

yeah... Buu absorbed Piccolo. He even displayed some of Piccolo's knowledge .

And what does that have to do with knowing how powerful Goku is, when Piccolo himself doesn't know for sure?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Piccolo and Buu both sensed him. Piccolo is likely smarter than Ginyu so he should be able to guesstimate even if that wasn't his full power.

[RandomGuy96]

I don't know how many times I have to say this: Goku showed up to fuse with Gohan. Gohan dropped the earring and panicked for a second. Goku powered up into SS3. Buutenks is standing right there and has no reason not to be sensing him right now- in fact he should be sensing him against his will own will judging by an earlier scene. He runs to one-shot Goku, who does nothing but sit there like a scared child, until the fusion time runs out and he reverts. Even while he's Buuccolo, he still has plenty of time to sense Goku. He doesn't retract his earlier prediction of Goku's power that he thought up while he was still Fat Buu and never comments on the ki being impressive, or even being close to his. He still says Goku is trash right up to the point where they rip out Mr.Buu, whereas he panicked and put a whole big plan into motion because he sensed that Gohan's ki MIGHT be greater than his.

Super Buu > Goku is stated at least four times; thrice by Goku, once by Super Buu.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

(he can't beat Super Buu without fusion)

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength!"

(he is absolutely no match for Buu; he can't even stall him long enough to wake Gohan up)

Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

(both of them are small, and Buu still maintains, after sensing SS3 Goku, that he can't win)

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

(he only says that they can manage something after Buu reverts- obviously meaning he couldn't manage ANYTHING before)

SS Gotenks > Fat Buu is stated twice by Goku and supported by three of Piccolo's statement later, after he senses SS Gotenks.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

(he was just told by Goku that Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Buu, after sensing Vegeta and seeing him get thrashed by Fat Buu. He calls Gotenks' ki incredible here and doesn't contradict the earlier statement)

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

(after seeing this demonstration, he is ONLY worried about the time limit. He has no doubts that the power he sensed can beat Fat Buu)

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

(he only says this AFTER Super Buu forms, resulting in a way stronger Buu- before this he was just fine with having Gotenks fight Fat Buu without the ROSAT)

Goku also outright says that SS Gotenks will be stronger than him:

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…

I don't know how much clearer it could've been. Goku is an ant to the three giants of the Fusion Saga.

[dbzfan7]

I don't know how many times I have to say this: Goku showed up to fuse with Gohan. Gohan dropped the earring and panicked for a second. Goku powered up into SS3. Buutenks is standing right there and has no reason not to be sensing him right now- in fact he should be sensing him against his will own will judging by an earlier scene. He runs to one-shot Goku, who does nothing but sit there like a scared child, until the fusion time runs out and he reverts. Even while he's Buuccolo, he still has plenty of time to sense Goku. He doesn't retract his earlier prediction of Goku's power that he thought up while he was still Fat Buu and never comments on the ki being impressive, or even being close to his. He still says Goku is trash right up to the point where they rip out Mr.Buu, whereas he panicked and put a whole big plan into motion because he sensed that Gohan's ki MIGHT be greater than his.

Super Buu > Goku is stated at least four times; thrice by Goku, once by Super Buu.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

(he can't beat Super Buu without fusion)

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength!"

(he is absolutely no match for Buu; he can't even stall him long enough to wake Gohan up)

Goku: “…So we’ve got no choice but to defeat you and then search for an exit somewhere.”
Boo: “No, you can’t defeat me. Not the way you guys are now…You’re gonna die, not me…”

(both of them are small, and Buu still maintains, after sensing SS3 Goku, that he can't win)

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

(he only says that they can manage something after Buu reverts- obviously meaning he couldn't manage ANYTHING before)

SS Gotenks > Fat Buu is stated twice by Goku and supported by three of Piccolo's statement later, after he senses SS Gotenks.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

(he was just told by Goku that Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Buu, after sensing Vegeta and seeing him get thrashed by Fat Buu. He calls Gotenks' ki incredible here and doesn't contradict the earlier statement)

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P9.3-8
Context: Piccolo finally catches up to Gotenks
Gotenks: “You’re slow. So you finally got here? Besides circling around the Earth several times, I even took a little afternoon nap. [ ] Fuffuffuh…So you can’t tell just from my speed just now? My super-duper incredible power…! …Which is to say that the test is over, and I’m going to go take care of that annoying Majin Boo right away…”
*Gotenks takes off*
Piccolo: “H-hey, you idiot! Kuh…! Wh-what a shithead…H-he already has only 1 minute left that he can stay merged. That dimwhit…!”

(after seeing this demonstration, he is ONLY worried about the time limit. He has no doubts that the power he sensed can beat Fat Buu)

Chapter: 487 (DBZ 293), P13.5
Context: as Piccolo plans on having Goten and Trunks train in the Room of Spirit and Time
Piccolo: “Can’t you tell…?! As they are now, even if they perform Fusion they can’t win, no doubt about it…! Tell them that if they don’t want to die while they’re still just little brats, then they should train as much as they can…!”

(he only says this AFTER Super Buu forms, resulting in a way stronger Buu- before this he was just fine with having Gotenks fight Fat Buu without the ROSAT)

Goku also outright says that SS Gotenks will be stronger than him:

Chapter: 476 (DBZ 282), P9.3
Piccolo: “If that bastard felt like it, he could wipe out the entire Earth, up here included, in the blink of an eye…!”
Goku: “It’s alright, I don’t think he’ll take out the Earth. After all, I told him that in 2 days, someone stronger than me would fight him, and he seemed happy…

I don't know how much clearer it could've been. Goku is an ant to the three giants of the Fusion Saga.

Now if only I could have that as a signature.

[Axiom]

Obviously not very clear - Have you read the panels of what you're quoting?
I don't even know why I have to shift through all this bullshit just point out how you're rehashing the same shit I just responded to originally.

Buu knew how strong Goku was

False - Buu didn't gain the power to sense Ki until he became Super-Buu, this is mentioned twice: Once by Piccolo, and again by Krillin

The Boys are said to be stronger than Goku!

I could use a lot terms to describe this argument, and none of them are nice.
SS Gotenks > Fat Buu is stated twice by Goku and supported by three of Piccolo's statement later, after he senses SS Gotenks.

Chapter: 472 (DBZ 278), P9.4
Context: after explaining that Fusion lasts 30 minutes
Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat [Boo] within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”

Chapter: 477 (DBZ 283), P11.8
Context: Chi-Chi thinks Goten will get killed by Boo
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Context: after Super Saiyan Gotenks forms for the first time
Piccolo: “…Yeah…Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little.”
Gotenks: “Is that alright? If I show you here, the house might break. I’ll do it on the ground.”

(he was just told by Goku that Gotenks would be stronger than Fat Buu, after sensing Vegeta and seeing him get thrashed by Fat Buu. He calls Gotenks' ki incredible here and doesn't contradict the earlier statement)

Goku predicts (though, we see no conformation of such) that the Boy's fusion will allow them to power-up and overpower Buu. But I want to focus on the last panel where Piccolo makes that comment, he's hardly impressed or stunned at their power. People are more shocked at the sucessful fusion than their power. In fact beyond Piccolo's words, no one really make a comment on their strength, which is weird considering he's supposed to be stronger than Goku, right?

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c483/7 (I'm sure it will be removed later)

And then, look at this panel

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dbz/c483/9 (I'm sure it will be removed later)

Again, Piccolo isn't impressed, and the boys KNOW he is testing them. I've asked before, why test them if they are near Goku's power? Well, we find out later he's not - as Piccolo tells Kuririn that the boys aren't up to par. The Guide Book confirms the boys aren't near even Vegeta's strength until the obtain SSJ3.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku transforms into a Ssj3 right in front of Buutenks. Evil Buu knows how strong Ssj3 Goku is.