Why do people hold Ultimate Gohan or Gotenks so highly?

[Captain Space]

Anyway, yeah, the Super version of the fights will undoubtedly help clear some of this up--especially in Gohan's case where (presumably) this time around he won't have his form changed at the last minute, which is what lead to one of the main quagmires of this debate.

Would be funny, if the previews(the opening with Ultimate Gohan) are wrong yet again and Gohan end up with only Super Saiyan in a complete reversal from BoG

I admit, as annoying as that would be for this debate and such, I would find it hilarious.

[dbgtFO]

Anyway, yeah, the Super version of the fights will undoubtedly help clear some of this up--especially in Gohan's case where (presumably) this time around he won't have his form changed at the last minute, which is what lead to one of the main quagmires of this debate.

Would be funny, if the previews(the opening with Ultimate Gohan) are wrong yet again and Gohan end up with only Super Saiyan in a complete reversal from BoG

I admit, as annoying as that would be for this debate and such, I would find it hilarious.

Really the fact, that there is any doubt stems from the fact, that we don't have Toriyama's equivalent to the manga available for BoG. Unlike RoF we weren't blessed with a complete Toriyama script to compare and contrast the animated adaptation with.
This means that Watanabe can claim that they always intended for Gohan to be ultimate in the movie proper, without us being able to prove him otherwise, unlike the Trunks special, where we can see, that the manga and anime are clearly different in regards to Trunks obtaining Super Saiyan.
Ah, if only Toriyama made a novelization of BoG.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So assuming universe wasn't apart of the statement, Goku undoubtedly became #1 after defeating Majin Boo. The main point is that he's still #1.

And then Vegeta says that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, and implies that Goku isn't the strongest in the universe, meaning that Goku is #1 Saiyan. To Vegeta's knowledge, Gohan, a Saiyan/Earthling Halfling, should be the #1 in the universe, which means that since he calls Goku #1, Gohan & Gotenks are excluded by Vegeta here, since even though they are Saiyans, they are not normal Saiyans.

He surpassed both based on what's shown. What reason is there to keep Gohan and Gotenks above Vegeta in BoG? He does something neither them or Goku could hope to do. The movie quite clearly establishes that Vegeta was the most powerful guy up to that point. The only one that surpassed that was Super Saiyan God Goku.

No, it's not clear, because Beerus if far, far, far stronger than everyone, and he was playing around with them.

Vegeta took his punch to the face and landed a bunch of attacks of his own. He wasn't off-guard--he just wasn't expecting that level of power from Vegeta.

That's what I mean by saying that he was off-guard, he didn't expect Vegeta to be on the level he was. The reason Vegeta tanked Beerus' punch was because Beerus' punch was about 4 times weaker than Enraged SS2 Vegeta, Gohan, Gotenks, and Goku would have tanked that punch as well. The reason Vegeta landed hits on Beerus was because Beerus allowed him to do it, since he was hoping that Vegeta would get another big boost in power, and become a Super Saiyan God.

Everyone became all happy when Goku returned to earth...thinking he's actually going to make a difference. Why? Because he's the strongest on the planet. I don't believe anyone outside of Vegeta knew Goku got washed by Beers on Kaio's world at that point. To everyone else, Goku was their last chance at stopping Beers.

Everyone gets happy all the time when Goku arrives in a crisis, because they believe that whatever problem they have, Goku will find a way. Bulma created the time-machine for that reason alone, even though the Artificial Humans were stronger than SS Goku.

I've always assumed Gohan>Goku, but the newer stuff is going along with the idea that Goku is the best.

No, the new stuff just dodge the question "How does Goku & Vegeta compare to Gohan & Gotenks", until they made Goku & Vegeta gods in order to place them far above everyone.

[h0kuten]

Whiss made no distinction between how many normal Saiyans and half breeds were on Earth, he spoke of them as a whole. So quite clearly Vegeta's reference towards Goku being the strongest Saiyan is a reference to all the Saiyans on Earth, not just himself & Goku. . To assume it excludes Gohan and the boy's fused counter-part is... well... stretching.

~Vegeta shows a strong reaction when Goku is beaten. A reaction far stronger than ANY other in Battle of Gods.
~Gotenks challenged Majin Buu in base, despite seeing Majin Vegeta get slammed.

[Truhan]

Also, they made no distinction between half-saiyans and saiyans when the SSJG ritual took place, and the legend said that 5 pure hearted saiyans had to join around Goku.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Whiss made no distinction between how many normal Saiyans were on Earth. So quite clearly Vegeta's reference is a reference to all pure blooded and Saiyan half breeds on Earth. To assume it excludes Gohan and the boys and references their fused counter-part... well... that's stretching.

I'm not saying that Gohan & Gotenks don't count as Saiyans, Vegeta has counted Gohan as a Saiyan before. The thing is, they can be excluded as Saiyans as well, which seems to be the case in Super. Vegeta says that Goku is #1, the strongest Saiyan, and that he is #2, and that he will surpass not only Goku, but everyone in the universe, and he will become the supreme #1. If Goku is the strongest in the universe, what are the other beings that Vegeta wants to surpass?

~Vegeta shows a strong reaction when Goku is beaten. A reaction far stronger than ANY other in Battle of Gods.

That's because it's the first thing to hear about Beerus. He was also told by Kaio that no one should ever touch Beerus at any case, so Beerus being stronger than everyone shouldn't surprise Vegeta that much. After Vegeta saw Beerus defeating Gohan & Gotenks like he did, he says that he didn't expect Beerus to be that strong, and that's when Vegeta can't sense Beerus' ki. If Goku was the strongest and was defeated with just 2 hits, why would Vegeta be surprised with Beerus' power?

~Gotenks challenged Majin Buu in base, despite seeing Majin Vegeta get slammed.

And Gotenks challenged Beerus as a Super Saiyan despite seeing Ultimate Gohan get slammed. Gotenks is an idiot.

[h0kuten]

No they cannot be excluded, when every implication in the new series and preceding movies specifically speaks of Saiyans as a whole with no distinction made between Pure Saiyans & half breeds.

The entire premise of Dragonball Super is that there are more powerful beings that Goku or Vegeta or even Gohan for that matter. Vegeta has seen Majin Buu's power first hand and cannot be 100% certain that there isn't someone stronger than Goku in the UNIVERSE. Not Earth, the UNIVERSE. Goku's home is on Earth and Vegeta says he will surpass the #1 fighter there and makes a clear distinction between the Universe and Earth.

~Someone tried to say Gotenks saw Ultimate Gohan loose but still felt he could win. I countered with Gotenks being an idiot and always over estimating himself. Vegeta specifically tells Gotenks not to fight Beerus becuase Vegeta knows he will loose, having lost himself. This also serves as a counter for anybody making a mundane argument that Vegeta was shocked that Gotenks lost.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No they cannot be excluded, when every implication in the new series and preceding movies specifically speaks of Saiyans as a whole with no distinction made between Pure Saiyans & half breeds.

Just because we didn't have a distinction before doesn't mean that we can't have a distinction again.

The entire premise of Dragonball Super is that there are more powerful beings that Goku or Vegeta or even Gohan for that matter. Vegeta has seen Majin Buu's power first hand and cannot be 100% certain that there isn't someone stronger than Goku in the UNIVERSE. Not Earth, the UNIVERSE. Goku's home is on Earth and Vegeta says he will surpass the #1 fighter there and makes a clear distinction between the Universe and Earth.

Vegeta doesn't know yet about Beerus, or anyone else stronger than the Saiyans.

Vegeta specifically tells Gotenks not to fight Beerus becuase Vegeta knows he will loose, having lost himself.

Vegeta already knew that because Kaio told him the same thing.

[h0kuten]

Dragonball Super references all Saiyans as a whole, not as full blooded Saiyans or half Saiyans. The half bloods and even a quarter blood are capable of performing the SSJG ritual. To intrepetate it as anything else is stretching.

He doesn't have too. Something else existed that was stronger than the Saiyans. So he cannot be certain there still is, which there is.

Yet he told Gotenks not to fight Beerus, having lost himself.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And then Vegeta says that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, and implies that Goku isn't the strongest in the universe, meaning that Goku is #1 Saiyan. To Vegeta's knowledge, Gohan, a Saiyan/Earthling Halfling, should be the #1 in the universe, which means that since he calls Goku #1, Gohan & Gotenks are excluded by Vegeta here, since even though they are Saiyans, they are not normal Saiyans.

Why does it have to be one or the other? It covers all bases. You can't say the #1 was about how he compared to Goku, then go on to say Goku being the strongest Saiyan (a meaningless title that would be wrong) excludes Gohan just because he's a hybrid. That would make both of the statements no different from the other. Goku would be #1 to Vegeta in terms of...whatever, and Goku would be the strongest full-blooded Saiyan in comparison to Vegeta. You're just going out of your way to ignore the implications of those statements because you don't agree with it.

According to Vegeta's knowledge, Goku is #1 and the strongest Saiyan. Goku being the strongest Saiyan means nothing if it's just about him and Vegeta. The title loses all of its meaning.

No, it's not clear, because Beerus if far, far, far stronger than everyone, and he was playing around with them.

It is clear. The potential of Goku and Vegeta was what Beers acknowledged in the end. Gohan and Gotenks? Ignored. He played with everyone and Vegeta did the best.

That's what I mean by saying that he was off-guard, he didn't expect Vegeta to be on the level he was.

A level that was beyond everyone else's up to that point. He was the only one left that Beers thought might be a Super Saiyan God. Gohan and Gotenks were already finished.

The reason Vegeta tanked Beerus' punch was because Beerus' punch was about 4 times weaker than Enraged SS2 Vegeta, Gohan, Gotenks, and Goku would have tanked that punch as well.

There's no way you can prove that at all. Gotenks wasn't even relevant enough to be punched. Gohan got knocked out with one kick. Vegeta took a longer beating than both and still went on to draw blood and knock Beers around when he powered-up. Quit making excuses for Gohan and Gotenks. Vegeta was obviously stronger than all of them considering he outperformed all of them, was the last Saiyan Beers thought might be a Super Saiyan God, and was acknowledged in the end by Beers along with Goku.

The reason Vegeta landed hits on Beerus was because Beerus allowed him to do it, since he was hoping that Vegeta would get another big boost in power, and become a Super Saiyan God.

Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks all failed at landing hits until Rageta goes on to land hits on the same Beers that effortlessly put all of them down before. That means he was able to do something both Gohan and Gotenks couldn't. Meaning he's stronger than Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks. None of them got a second wind like Vegeta, nor could they do anything besides get knocked out.

Everyone gets happy all the time when Goku arrives in a crisis, because they believe that whatever problem they have, Goku will find a way. Bulma created the time-machine for that reason alone, even though the Artificial Humans were stronger than SS Goku.

Most of the time when they get excited about Goku's return, he's often the strongest one there. None of them outside of Vegeta knew what Beers did to him. For all they knew, he was capable of fighting Beers.

No, the new stuff just dodge the question "How does Goku & Vegeta compare to Gohan & Gotenks", until they made Goku & Vegeta gods in order to place them far above everyone.

If Gohan and Gotenks are being treated as irrelevant NPC's, then it certainly isn't saying much about their power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why does it have to be one or the other? It covers all bases. You can't say the #1 was about how he compared to Goku, then go on to say Goku being the strongest Saiyan (a meaningless title that would be wrong) excludes Gohan just because he's a hybrid. That would make both of the statements no different from the other. Goku would be #1 to Vegeta in terms of...whatever, and Goku would be the strongest full-blooded Saiyan in comparison to Vegeta. You're just going out of your way to ignore the implications of those statements because you don't agree with it.

According to Vegeta's knowledge, Goku is #1 and the strongest Saiyan. Goku being the strongest Saiyan means nothing if it's just about him and Vegeta. The title loses all of its meaning.

I'm not saying that he definitely excludes Gohan, but it is very possible that Vegeta means that Goku is the strongest (full-blooded) Saiyan, and given to what Vegeta says, it makes much more sense like that. Vegeta says that he is #2, and that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but he doesn't just want to become the strongest Saiyan, he wants to become the strongest in the universe. He doesn't want to be just #1, he wants to be the supreme #1. Vegeta makes it sound like Goku isn't the strongest in the universe. But if Goku has surpassed Gohan, he should have become the strongest in the universe, to Vegeta's knowledge.

It is clear. The potential of Goku and Vegeta was what Beers acknowledged in the end. Gohan and Gotenks? Ignored. He played with everyone and Vegeta did the best.

He acknowledged Goku & Vegeta because he fought them, and he knows that they can both become Gods. He didn't fight Gohan & Gotenks, he just KOed them, he didn't see any skills from them, like he acknowledged Vegeta's fighting sense.

There's no way you can prove that at all. Gotenks wasn't even relevant enough to be punched. Gohan got knocked out with one kick.

Then SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, without a rage boost.

Quit making excuses for Gohan and Gotenks.

Quit forcing your interpretations as a fact. We have no direct statements or feats that make Goku & Vegeta stronger than Gohan & Gotenks, the information we have are vague.

Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks all failed at landing hits until Rageta goes on to land hits on the same Beers that effortlessly put all of them down before. That means he was able to do something both Gohan and Gotenks couldn't. Meaning he's stronger than Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks. None of them got a second wind like Vegeta, nor could they do anything besides get knocked out.

Vegeta did that because Beerus allowed him to do that. Unless you believe that Vegeta reached Beerus' level... which he didn't, since he didn't do any damage to him.

Most of the time when they get excited about Goku's return, he's often the strongest one there. None of them outside of Vegeta knew what Beers did to him. For all they knew, he was capable of fighting Beers.

But he wasn't the strongest, Vegeta had surpassed him, and he failed to do anything to Beerus.

If Gohan and Gotenks are being treated as irrelevant NPC's, then it certainly isn't saying much about their power.

Since when did anyone who wasn't relevant become magically weaker?

[h0kuten]

Why does it have to be one or the other? It covers all bases. You can't say the #1 was about how he compared to Goku, then go on to say Goku being the strongest Saiyan (a meaningless title that would be wrong) excludes Gohan just because he's a hybrid. That would make both of the statements no different from the other. Goku would be #1 to Vegeta in terms of...whatever, and Goku would be the strongest full-blooded Saiyan in comparison to Vegeta. You're just going out of your way to ignore the implications of those statements because you don't agree with it.

According to Vegeta's knowledge, Goku is #1 and the strongest Saiyan. Goku being the strongest Saiyan means nothing if it's just about him and Vegeta. The title loses all of its meaning.

I'm not saying that he definitely excludes Gohan, but it is very possible that Vegeta means that Goku is the strongest (full-blooded) Saiyan, and given to what Vegeta says, it makes much more sense like that. Vegeta says that he is #2, and that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but he doesn't just want to become the strongest Saiyan, he wants to become the strongest in the universe. He doesn't want to be just #1, he wants to be the supreme #1. Vegeta makes it sound like Goku isn't the strongest in the universe. But if Goku has surpassed Gohan, he should have become the strongest in the universe, to Vegeta's knowledge.

I don't think it makes more sense that way. I already pointed out why it makes even less sense. Vegeta makes a distinction between Goku (being the #1 fighter he knows about) and the UNIVERSE.

It is clear. The potential of Goku and Vegeta was what Beers acknowledged in the end. Gohan and Gotenks? Ignored. He played with everyone and Vegeta did the best.

He acknowledged Goku & Vegeta because he fought them, and he knows that they can both become Gods. He didn't fight Gohan & Gotenks, he just KOed them, he didn't see any skills from them, like he acknowledged Vegeta's fighting sense.

Beerus fought Ultimate Gohan & Gotenks as well, they can also become gods because they performed the SSJG ritual. Yet he comments about Vegeta's latent potential which is surpassing Ultimate Gohan.

There's no way you can prove that at all. Gotenks wasn't even relevant enough to be punched. Gohan got knocked out with one kick.

Then SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, without a rage boost.

Incorrect. Statements.

Quit making excuses for Gohan and Gotenks.

Quit forcing your interpretations as a fact. We have no direct statements or feats that make Goku & Vegeta stronger than Gohan & Gotenks, the information we have are vague.

He is not forcing his opinion, he's stating what makes sense without twisting the feats for what they were.

Vegeta, Gohan and Gotenks all failed at landing hits until Rageta goes on to land hits on the same Beers that effortlessly put all of them down before. That means he was able to do something both Gohan and Gotenks couldn't. Meaning he's stronger than Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks. None of them got a second wind like Vegeta, nor could they do anything besides get knocked out.

Vegeta did that because Beerus allowed him to do that. Unless you believe that Vegeta reached Beerus' level... which he didn't, since he didn't do any damage to him.

Beerus tried to punch Vegeta, yet he was getting bloodied. Beerus didn't allow Vegeta to do anything. Instead he got manhandled.

Most of the time when they get excited about Goku's return, he's often the strongest one there. None of them outside of Vegeta knew what Beers did to him. For all they knew, he was capable of fighting Beers.

But he wasn't the strongest, Vegeta had surpassed him, and he failed to do anything to Beerus.

If Gohan and Gotenks are being treated as irrelevant NPC's, then it certainly isn't saying much about their power.

Since when did anyone who wasn't relevant become magically weaker?

[Hitiro]

There's no way you can prove that at all. Gotenks wasn't even relevant enough to be punched. Gohan got knocked out with one kick.

Then SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, without a rage boost.

Incorrect. Statements.

He doesn't believe this. He is pointing out the flaw in Turlast's logic. If punching a character deemed their relevance then SSJ2 Vegeta without rage boost is more relevant than SSJ3 Goku because SSJ3 Goku received no such treatment from Beerus. So the fact that Gotenks wasn't punched means nothing.

[h0kuten]

There's no way you can prove that at all. Gotenks wasn't even relevant enough to be punched. Gohan got knocked out with one kick.

Then SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, without a rage boost.

Incorrect. Statements.

He doesn't believe this. He is pointing out the flaw in Turlast's logic. If punching a character deemed their relevance then SSJ2 Vegeta without rage boost is more relevant than SSJ3 Goku because SSJ3 Goku received no such treatment from Beerus. So the fact that Gotenks wasn't punched means nothing.

There is also a problem with his counter-argument. The problem is that Beerus used a-lot more powerful against Goku Ssj3 than he did against ANY of the Z-Fighters. Evidence:



People don't realize this small details regarding Battle of Gods so I thought I'd make a gif to prove my point. Beerus is moving so quickly that Goku is looking in the other direction and still reacting to when he heard Beerus teleport. This NEVER happens when Beerus fights the Z-Fighters. All the Z-Fighters are able to at least track the movements of Beerus, meaning Beerus used far far more power against Goku than he did against the Z-Fighters.

To prove my argument I'll use two two finger flick scenes. One finger flick is the power Beerus used against Goku in comparison to the Z-Fighters:



vs



Clearly Beerus used a-lot more power against Goku.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I'm not saying that he definitely excludes Gohan, but it is very possible that Vegeta means that Goku is the strongest (full-blooded) Saiyan, and given to what Vegeta says, it makes much more sense like that. Vegeta says that he is #2, and that Goku is the strongest Saiyan, but he doesn't just want to become the strongest Saiyan, he wants to become the strongest in the universe. He doesn't want to be just #1, he wants to be the supreme #1.

If that makes more sense to you, then that's cool.

Basically, "Kakarot is #1 after defeating Majin Boo, even though he's far weaker than the only other Saiyan on the planet." Defeating Majin Boo didn't actually make him #1 after all.

Basically, "I've accepted that you're the strongest Saiyan, even though you're far weaker than the other most powerful Saiyan on the world." It's a meaningless statement if other Saiyans aren't being considered. There are no other pure blooded Saiyans out there. Well, except Tarble, but he's a weakling.

Vegeta makes it sound like Goku isn't the strongest in the universe. But if Goku has surpassed Gohan, he should have become the strongest in the universe, to Vegeta's knowledge.

So if Gohan's the actual strongest in the universe, why wouldn't Vegeta acknowledge him as such? What's so special about Gohan that Vegeta can't even mention him by name? He's had no issues acknowledging Gohan before, but now he can't because?

He acknowledged Goku & Vegeta because he fought them, and he knows that they can both become Gods. He didn't fight Gohan & Gotenks, he just KOed them, he didn't see any skills from them, like he acknowledged Vegeta's fighting sense.

He damaged Vegeta a lot during his initial assault as well. The only difference was he caught a second wind and knocked him around when he powered-up. That's outperforming Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks.

Then SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, without a rage boost.

The difference is we have dialogue that shows when he actually surpassed Goku. Vegeta could very well be stronger than Gotenks before he powered-up. Wouldn't be a shock.

Quit forcing your interpretations as a fact.

I'm not. I'm just showing that this stuff isn't clear by any means. Simply going with "Gohan's still the strongest" just misses the point of everything. Hopefully Super will shed better light on it.

We have no direct statements or feats that ma[quke Goku & Vegeta stronger than Gohan & Gotenks, the information we have are vague.

Nor do we have anything showing them stronger than Goku or Vegeta in BoG. Vegeta's feats shown (when he surpassed Goku) exceed anything Gohan or Gotenks ever did. How or why doesn't matter. The point is that he did something they weren't shown to be capable of, so there's no reason to assume that they could.

Vegeta did that because Beerus allowed him to do that. Unless you believe that Vegeta reached Beerus' level... which he didn't, since he didn't do any damage to him.

He drew blood and knocked him around. Gohan only managed to stop Beers from beating on Mr. Boo for a second before he's quickly incapacitated. Vegeta doesn't need to be on Beers level, but being beyond Goku, Gohan, and Gotenks makes the most sense. If Gohan and Gotenks were already capable of doing what Vegeta did, it makes the scene totally inconsequential. And for what? To maintain Gohan and Gotenks's superiority?

But he wasn't the strongest, Vegeta had surpassed him, and he failed to do anything to Beerus.

Goku returned to earth after training on Kaio's world. They might've thought he could make a difference based on that alone.

Since when did anyone who wasn't relevant become magically weaker?

Why does it have to be "magically weaker" when it could simply mean they were surpassed?! Because it doesn't make sense that they can be surpassed or something?

[Darkprince410]

Clearly Beerus used a-lot more power against Goku.

All you're showing is one scene of Beerus using one flick to take out someone that we know already is weaker than Ssj3 Goku. That's hardly anything special at all. There's arguably more force in the blows he used to take out Gohan and Gotenks than there were for the ones that took out Goku, so I don't see where you're coming from with this.

Besides, Buu's actually irritated him a fair bit with not giving him a pudding, so if anything, he's going to hold back less against Buu than he would Goku, not more.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

Why don't we just come to the conclusion that both sides are cornered logic. The Boo saga wasn't as consistently written as the previous saga's thanks to Toriyama's editor Fuyuto Takeda being a softy on his progression. Toriyama probably wanted to make Goku the strongest further in the saga, but drew himself into a corner with Gohan/Gotenks. The Evil Boo portions conclusively do not make sense with the Pure Boo portions. Yeah, Goku suggested bringing them both to fight. But he never actually said that they could get the job done. Vegeta's initial statements regarding Goku being #1/the strongest ever next to himself, should end this argument. Then there's Goku's thoughts about Boo returning and training to be ready has no mention whatsoever regarding Gohan/Gotenks. For a tier of power that is supposed to be so far beyond Goku, you would think that they would just acknowledge them at least once, like they did with Gohan in the Cell saga.
This is the same guy who said SSJ Gotenks would surpass him. Now a jump from that to Ultimate Gohan....yeah, kind of a big deal to ignore that.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's basically the way I see it at this point.

I can see why Gohan>Goku is still the majority, but now it's much easier for me to see the other side of that now. No matter how you look at it, there's going to be issues. I had a similar thought after participating in so many "was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2" debates. I could see why both sides could make a case for Gohan being in either form, so I didn't need to choose one option. I'm just more open-minded about things in general.

[OWmyDragonBallz]

That's basically the way I see it at this point.

I can see why Gohan>Goku is still the majority, but now it's much easier for me to see the other side of that now. No matter how you look at it, there's going to be issues. I had a similar thought after participating in so many "was Gohan a Super Saiyan 2" debates. I could see why both sides could make a case for Gohan being in either form, so I didn't need to choose one option. I'm just more open-minded about things in general.

I think that "Goku and Vegeta having the highest potential" line from Beerus is Toriyama's way of saying how they both got so strong. Perhaps they just learned how to tap into more of that further in the boo saga during the fight with Pure Boo.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's certainly possible.

I'll admit, I always assumed Gohan and Gotenks were at a level that was unreachable through normal means...until I realized that it wasn't necessary.