People are getting tired of Goku and here is why

[ABED]

Thank you. I appreciate the clarification.

Agreed about Z. It also felt very repetitive to take Goku out early in the battle. Hell, Goku is sidelined TWICE in the Freeza arc.

I also agree about GT. I'm not as irritated by it as some, but it would've been nice to see the others get something to do. Like you said, they could defeat lackies. The other fighters taking on the Evil Dragons would've been a perfect way to put focus on them. It makes them look pathetic by not even attempting to help.

[TekTheNinja]

Edward was out of focus every now and then because the group would split up and the story would follow the various characters until everyone met up again. But FMA tells a very different type of story. There are mysteries and conspiracies and political intrigue from multiple factions. It's a very different type of story from Dragon Ball.

Past arcs had multiple different things going on. It's only Super that has overly simplistic, short, and boring arcs with only one goal given immediately to Goku.

You could tell Toriyama was just putting him on the bench to draw out the arc. It happened in Battle of Gods and Resurrection F too.

And Z and those two movies are more universally liked among the fanbase. Most of us like seeing other characters ACTUALLY DO THINGS.

I've said this before (in another thread, I think), but Goku getting focus wasn't the problem with GT, it was that he (and the writers) would actually prevent the other characters from participating in fights at all. It had to be Goku getting the win whether it was the boss or a mook. Pan defeated one of the Sigma Force robots on her own, onw of the few victories Goku wasn't involved in, and it got revived stronger than before just an episode or two later to be instantly fodderized by base Goku. It couldn't even give Pan that. Likewise Pan appeared to be perfectly capable of beating Haze Shenron but Goku had to butt in for a team kill. It got really obnoxious. Thankfully Super Goku doesn't do that.

Super DOES do that though. Did you miss the entire first part of this tournament? Goku is just being shoved in against fairly weak fighters that the others could be fighting, and in some cases actually just butting in on other people's fights, like with Hit. (Then gets pissy if people but into his fights like a damn hypocrite)

Can I also mention that despite his entire universe being at stake, Goku still is treating this like some kind of game? Unrelated to the topic at hand, but it's pissing me off. He even has the nerve to tell 17 not to interrupt a transformation. Like, I understand he likes fair fights, but this is life and death here.

[TekTheNinja]

The other fighters taking on the Evil Dragons would've been a perfect way to put focus on them. It makes them look pathetic by not even attempting to help.

The Tournament of Power's standing around doing nothing group is better how?

[ABED]

Ad hoc ergo propter hoc. People don't like DBZ and Super more BECAUSE Goku is constantly sidelined. Very often characters didn't do things beyond wait for Goku to arrive. ANd Goku being on the battlefield doesn't mean the other guys don't have anything to do. The Vegeta fight proves that.

It's only Super that has overly simplistic, short, and boring arcs

I'm not defending Super, but DB always had simple arcs and some of us prefer the shorter arcs to long overly drawn out ones. I don't like it when a 300 page novel is shoved into a 500 page novel.

Goku still is treating this like some kind of game? Unrelated to the topic at hand, but it's pissing me off.

Something he did in Z, which as you said is more universally liked.

I understand he likes fair fights, but this is life and death here.

It's not a superhero show. The primary concern of all of the characters isn't to save the world.

[BlueBasilisk]

Super DOES do that though. Did you miss the entire first part of this tournament? Goku is just being shoved in against fairly weak fighters that the others could be fighting, and in some cases actually just butting in on other people's fights, like with Hit. (Then gets pissy if people but into his fights like a damn hypocrite).

And the weaker fighters are defeating those other weaker fighters. Who has Goku beaten since he and Vegeta eliminated Universe 9 in the second episode of the tournament? Nobody. He didn't interfere in Krillin or Roshi's fights. Kale and Caulifla attacked him, and then they plus 18 defeated the 5 Pride Troopers. 17 beat Kakunsa and Vikal. Goku lent Hit his support but Hit is the one who defeated Kunshi and nearly defeated Dyspo. That is a far cry from GT where other people wanted to fight and Goku told them to fuck off because they were too weak.

And Z and those two movies are more universally liked among the fanbase. Most of us like seeing other characters ACTUALLY DO THINGS.

You mean get their asses kicked by any of the worthwhile villains and stand around lamenting how useless they are until Goku saves the day? Because that's exactly what they did in both of those movies.

[namekiansaiyan]

It looks like Goku will only have 2 more fights against Ribrianne and Jiren so we shouldn't have to worry about him getting involved in any other fights.

[Jigurashi]

It looks like Goku will only have 2 more fights against Ribrianne and Jiren so we shouldn't have to worry about him getting involved in any other fights.

Nothing suggests he's only getting two fights left.

[Noah]

Nothing suggests he's only getting two fights left.

Also nothing suggests his fight against Jiren will be the final of the Tournament of Power

[Jigurashi]

Nothing suggests he's only getting two fights left.

Also nothing suggests his fight against Jiren will be the final of the Tournament of Power

Exactly. We don't know a lot of things going forward.

[TekTheNinja]

Super DOES do that though. Did you miss the entire first part of this tournament? Goku is just being shoved in against fairly weak fighters that the others could be fighting, and in some cases actually just butting in on other people's fights, like with Hit. (Then gets pissy if people but into his fights like a damn hypocrite).

Who has Goku beaten since he and Vegeta eliminated Universe 9 in the second episode of the tournament? Nobody.

And yet he's been in every episode since then, fighting fucking everyone. Funny you bring that moment too, since that was some of the biggest wasted potential in the arc so far. They wiped out one of the more interesting universes in ONE EPISODE using ONLY Goku and Vegeta.

And Z and those two movies are more universally liked among the fanbase. Most of us like seeing other characters ACTUALLY DO THINGS.

You mean get their asses kicked by any of the worthwhile villains and stand around lamenting how useless they are until Goku saves the day? Because that's exactly what they did in both of those movies.

No, most of Battle of Gods was fun slice-of-life and comedy stuff utilizing the cast, with one badass fight at the very end which actually had Goku act in character, and the first half of Resurrection F was badass fight scenes with the side-cast (sans Yamcha irritatingly), which is fun enough despite the opponents other than Shisami being total unnamed fodder, leaving the last half for Goku and Vegeta to fight Frieza and annoyingly ending with Vegeta not getting to kill Frieza, which was altogether a stupid decision. Yes Resurrection F was not ideal, but it's way better than the shit we're getting right now with characters getting one highlight episode at most where they beat no more than three (fairly weak and not very relevant) opponents, only to get eliminated in a humiliating way. Their episodes feel almost like filler so far. (Yes even the surprisingly amazing Roshi episode)

[namekiansaiyan]

Nothing suggests he's only getting two fights left.

Also nothing suggests his fight against Jiren will be the final of the Tournament of Power

Exactly. We don't know a lot of things going forward.

I don't think it is the last fight at all but I doubt Goku will be fighting anymore since this is his big fight.

[SsjCookie]

Yes Resurrection F was not ideal, but it's way better than the shit we're getting right now with characters getting one highlight episode at most where they beat no more than three (fairly weak and not very relevant) opponents, only to get eliminated in a humiliating way. Their episodes feel almost like filler so far. (Yes even the surprisingly amazing Roshi episode)

Granted, Roshi doing so well was a pleasant surprise, but like you said the rest of the characters feel like they are nothing more than fodder.
I did expect Krillin and Tien to be one of the first to drop out of the tournament, but the way they did it was very bad writing indeed.
These two were once hard-core warriors, they deserved more.

Besides, I don't really have the feeling people are fighting for their lives here, there's no chemistry at all in this saga.
maybe that is also the core of the problem I have with this tournament so far.

[ABED]

No, most of Battle of Gods was fun slice-of-life and comedy stuff utilizing the cast, with one badass fight at the very end which actually had Goku act in character,

What do you consider "in character" for Goku? And do you think BoG is a prime example of how to best use the cast?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

No, most of Battle of Gods was fun slice-of-life and comedy stuff utilizing the cast, with one badass fight at the very end which actually had Goku act in character,

What do you consider "in character" for Goku? And do you think BoG is a prime example of how to best use the cast?

Cast relegated to being completely useless and then humiliated and relying on Goku to save the day as usual? How anyone can consider that a good use of the cast is beyond me.

[ABED]

The early part of the Freeza arc is a great example of how to use a cast. Goku is heading towards Namek and training, Vegeta is gathering the DB's, and Gohan and Kuririn are simultaneously also trying to gather the DB's and dodge bad guys that are vastly stronger than they are. That allows weaker characters to do something vital to the story without having to come up with yet another crazy power up.

[Kanassa]

The early part of the Freeza arc is a great example of how to use a cast. Goku is heading towards Namek and training, Vegeta is gathering the DB's, and Gohan and Kuririn are simultaneously also trying to gather the DB's and dodge bad guys that are vastly stronger than they are. That allows weaker characters to do something vital to the story without having to come up with yet another crazy power up.

I;d say the closest to that so far in Super would be the Zamasu arc. Focusing it's uses firmly on the main three, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks who would handle the fihgting, but other characters did help. Yajarobi, Mai and the Future Civilians used tricks, last minute grabbing and distractions to get hte heroes out of danger and hide from the villains, BUlma (And to a lesser extent, the Pilaf Gang) use connections and their technical know how to help about once or twice (Mostly just with the Time Machine), Whis and Beerus dealt with present Zamasu and saved Gowasu, as well as Gohan and Persent Trunks contributing to Future Trunks's drive when he gets close to giving up. And Piccolo and Roshi teaching Trunks and Goku the Mafuuba, no matter how bullshit Piccolo teaching Trunks (Via a five minute video) can be considered.

Really, it depends on if you view other characters contributing to outside battle stuff to be good enough. Like, in the Frieza arc, Bulma did jack shit in fighting, but without her the Heroes would have never gotten to and off Namek alive.

[SsjCookie]

The early part of the Freeza arc is a great example of how to use a cast. Goku is heading towards Namek and training, Vegeta is gathering the DB's, and Gohan and Kuririn are simultaneously also trying to gather the DB's and dodge bad guys that are vastly stronger than they are. That allows weaker characters to do something vital to the story without having to come up with yet another crazy power up.

There's no storytelling involved in the tournament arc, just dumb fighting.
And even "that" is not done very well.

[Lord Beerus]

The early part of the Freeza arc is a great example of how to use a cast. Goku is heading towards Namek and training, Vegeta is gathering the DB's, and Gohan and Kuririn are simultaneously also trying to gather the DB's and dodge bad guys that are vastly stronger than they are. That allows weaker characters to do something vital to the story without having to come up with yet another crazy power up.

I;d say the closest to that so far in Super would be the Zamasu arc. Focusing it's uses firmly on the main three, Goku, Vegeta and Trunks who would handle the fihgting, but other characters did help. Yajarobi, Mai and the Future Civilians used tricks, last minute grabbing and distractions to get hte heroes out of danger and hide from the villains, BUlma (And to a lesser extent, the Pilaf Gang) use connections and their technical know how to help about once or twice (Mostly just with the Time Machine), Whis and Beerus dealt with present Zamasu and saved Gowasu, as well as Gohan and Persent Trunks contributing to Future Trunks's drive when he gets close to giving up. And Piccolo and Roshi teaching Trunks and Goku the Mafuuba, no matter how bullshit Piccolo teaching Trunks (Via a five minute video) can be considered.

Really, it depends on if you view other characters contributing to outside battle stuff to be good enough. Like, in the Frieza arc, Bulma did jack shit in fighting, but without her the Heroes would have never gotten to and off Namek alive.

I certainly think there was an ensemble cast feeling in the Future Trunks arc, too. As you mentioned, Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks handled the major threats of Goku Black and Zamasu, while the supporting cast Future Mai, Future Yajirobe and Future Trunks' Earth's resistance played a crucial role is bailing out the central cast (Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks) and (unwittingly) contributing the pseudo Genki Dama which allowed Future Trunks to defeat Merged Zamasu, Beerus, Whis and Kaioshin investigating who Goku Black is and finding out the true identity of Goku Black, Beerus killing Zamasu (which ironically kick-started the entire plot.)

[TekTheNinja]

It's only Super that has overly simplistic, short, and boring arcs

I'm not defending Super, but DB always had simple arcs and some of us prefer the shorter arcs to long overly drawn out ones. I don't like it when a 300 page novel is shoved into a 500 page novel.

They weren't so simple that there was literally no need for anyone besides the strongest fighters to be there.

Goku still is treating this like some kind of game? Unrelated to the topic at hand, but it's pissing me off.

Something he did in Z, which as you said is more universally liked.[/quote] Not to this extent. When things got more serious, Goku got more serious. This was handled well with Zamasu, where Goku knew when to start taking things seriously, but not here.

I understand he likes fair fights, but this is life and death here.

It's not a superhero show. The primary concern of all of the characters isn't to save the world.[/quote] Don't go there. This isn't about "saving the world". It's about fighting seriously so yourself and your loved ones can survive. That's something Goku ALWAYS fought for.

No, most of Battle of Gods was fun slice-of-life and comedy stuff utilizing the cast, with one badass fight at the very end which actually had Goku act in character,

What do you consider "in character" for Goku? And do you think BoG is a prime example of how to best use the cast?[/quote]
When Goku actually gives at least half a shit and has at least half a brain cell. That's Goku acting in character. And prime example? Hell no, but again, It's better than what most of Super has done. We get to see the gang back together and showcasing all their fun personalities and quirks. In terms of fighting they do very little, but Battle of Gods as a movie was hardly about fighting. It was more of a Dragon Ball reunion party. The best examples would be most of DB, early parts of DBZ, and as you said yourself:

The early part of the Freeza arc is a great example of how to use a cast. Goku is heading towards Namek and training, Vegeta is gathering the DB's, and Gohan and Kuririn are simultaneously also trying to gather the DB's and dodge bad guys that are vastly stronger than they are. That allows weaker characters to do something vital to the story without having to come up with yet another crazy power up.

A good example of the cast simply being there to help Goku, yet still being badass in their own right is in the Piccolo Daimao arc, when Tenshinhan saves Goku from a powerful blast that Piccolo was firing by flying Goku above it. An interesting thing about this is that Tenshinan was the only one who could actually fly at the time, so he was using his own unique ability to help support Goku, which is neat.

Imagine a properly used shin-kikoho is the tournament of power. It could have been an interesting combo move, but he just spams it like any old ki blast nowadays. Remember the interesting Botamo and Magetta team-up which was totally wasted and forgotten about? What if Tenshinhan blasted them with a kikoho to topple them, so Vegeta could take them out? Sure it wouldn't be nearly as satisfying as Ten eliminating them on his own, but using his own unique move to help a teammate would be a fantastic showing of teamwork and would still make Ten pretty useful seeing as Vegeta wouldn't have been able to beat them without his help. It would be another great example of supporting a more prominent character while still looking cool. Instead, despite the concept of teamwork being hyped and foreshadowed beyond belief, there's actually less teamwork than there's ever been!

[ABED]

It's about fighting seriously so yourself and your loved ones can survive. That's something Goku ALWAYS fought for.

He also would draw things out to get a better fight regardless. Hell, he wouldn't accept help in the fight against Piccolo Jr. because the title was more important to him.

When Goku actually gives at least half a shit

He does care, but more about the fight than the world. That's who he is.

They weren't so simple that there was literally no need for anyone besides the strongest fighters to be there.

That's basically the case in the Buu and Cell arc.