Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 18 - Official Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Lastly, and most importantly, the power scaling is absurd. Like... really, really absurd, even in comparison to his previous rage boosts, which were only temporary anyways. Ultimate Gohan alone shouldn't be close to SSJB level, considering he never received any special God training from Whis, but this form put him on par with an experienced Ultra Instinct Goku. Again, this is an extremely lazy way to have him catch up, UNLESS more details were given as to why he's capable of overpowering everyone. Maybe he's like a human spirit bomb, unconsciously absorbing life energy of those around him when he's angry, which is why he's always able to surpass people. Give me something.

Instead, they just made him go angry because that is something DBZ fans remember, but, but... nobody actually died prior to this because that would be too dark for modern DB. And the reason the form looks like SSJ2 Gohan is because, well--there's no reason he looks like this. Nope. It just looks cool like SSJ2 Gohan. . And they made him capable of tapping into the form at will and catch up to Goku because now they can milk his uber coolness.

Gohan trained for less than 40 hrs in preparation for the ToP and went from base tier to SSB tier. It's even more extreme in the manga since he makes that jump in less than 40 minutes. Why wouldn't a new form make him surpass UI Goku?

It's just how he is.

[fadeddreams5]

Lastly, and most importantly, the power scaling is absurd. Like... really, really absurd, even in comparison to his previous rage boosts, which were only temporary anyways. Ultimate Gohan alone shouldn't be close to SSJB level, considering he never received any special God training from Whis, but this form put him on par with an experienced Ultra Instinct Goku. Again, this is an extremely lazy way to have him catch up, UNLESS more details were given as to why he's capable of overpowering everyone. Maybe he's like a human spirit bomb, unconsciously absorbing life energy of those around him when he's angry, which is why he's always able to surpass people. Give me something.

Instead, they just made him go angry because that is something DBZ fans remember, but, but... nobody actually died prior to this because that would be too dark for modern DB. And the reason the form looks like SSJ2 Gohan is because, well--there's no reason he looks like this. Nope. It just looks cool like SSJ2 Gohan. . And they made him capable of tapping into the form at will and catch up to Goku because now they can milk his uber coolness.

Gohan trained for less than 40 hrs in preparation for the ToP and went from base tier to SSB tier. It's even more extreme in the manga since he makes that jump in less than 40 minutes. Why wouldn't a new form make him surpass UI Goku?

It's just how he is.

The power scaling in Super and execution of these new powers is the main issue, not so much Gohan himself. Roshi beating Tien, 17 being close to Ultimate Gohan himself by training in an effing park, Krillin sparring SSJB Goku, the question of whether Goku's base is still SSJG level, and so on. It's so incredibly bad. What I wrote before is what's wrong with that Gohan Beast form, in particular, but obviously the root of the problem came way before that movie with Super.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You do realize that Vegeta getting SSJ4 in GT was actually unearned, right? Bro literally went through 0 training/hardship and just asked Bulma to make him the bullshit machine that hands out SSJ4 for free.

There was never a machine that handed out Ssj4 for free; that never happened. All the machine did was turn him into a REGULAR great ape, something he was more than capable of doing had he took the time to get his tail pulled out and wait for the full moon. Transforming into a golden ape, remembering who he was, then finally transforming into Ssj4 was all his doing. This belief that the machine is what turned him into Ssj4 has zero basis in reality, yet for some reason it's what most people believe. As for training, we saw him training in episode 55, remembering everything that led to where he was at the current moment, then finally discussing the idea with Bulma. It may not have been perfect, but it was set up far better than Blue Evolution, I can tell you that much.

SSJ3 and Gohan's mystic powerup were, in fact, bad storytelling.

Goku was training for 7 years with the Kais, so if anything, him not getting such a form would've been bad storytelling. There was also the fact that Goten and especially Trunks kept questioning his greatness, so that was basically a set up for him to blow them and everyone else away with what he'd learned. I'm not against the idea that more could've been done to set it up, but it by no means came out of nowhere. As for Gohan, we were promised he'd get a major power boost as a result of training with the sword (which he did, just not how we thought he would), so between that and being forced to sit still for 24 hours (anyone who's been on an international flight knows how hard this is to do), I'd say he earned the power up. Again, like with Ssj3, I think more could've been done to set it up, but I'm not going to pretend that the piece weren't there, I just wish there were more of them.

The lack of a strong editor is very apparent in these past modern productions.

Back in the day Toriyama, his editors, and the anime's producer pretty much pushed each other to get the best out of everyone. Ideas were rejected by the producers, others were insisted on by Toriyama, some were changed by the producers, etc... Everyone contributed in making DB the best product it could be back then. Modern DB doesn't have that anymore. Throughout the past decade, Toriyama was surrounded by yes men who wouldn't dare question a single thing he did. His old editor Torishima, who played a major role in shaping the Cell arc, said that Resurrection F was "good". How the hell can you read that bare bones "script" and say it was good ?

It never ceases to amaze me how this franchise, whose main message is "You should always strive to be better!" Can have a fanbase where fans tell other fans they should just shut up and settle for stale mediocrity when it has already proven it can absolutely be better than this.

These are the exact same people Toriyama was surrounded by, unfortunately. People who very likely knew better, but chose to worship at the altar of Toriyama instead.

[QuakingStar]

Lastly, and most importantly, the power scaling is absurd. Like... really, really absurd, even in comparison to his previous rage boosts, which were only temporary anyways. Ultimate Gohan alone shouldn't be close to SSJB level, considering he never received any special God training from Whis, but this form put him on par with an experienced Ultra Instinct Goku. Again, this is an extremely lazy way to have him catch up, UNLESS more details were given as to why he's capable of overpowering everyone. Maybe he's like a human spirit bomb, unconsciously absorbing life energy of those around him when he's angry, which is why he's always able to surpass people. Give me something.

Instead, they just made him go angry because that is something DBZ fans remember, but, but... nobody actually died prior to this because that would be too dark for modern DB. And the reason the form looks like SSJ2 Gohan is because, well--there's no reason he looks like this. Nope. It just looks cool like SSJ2 Gohan. . And they made him capable of tapping into the form at will and catch up to Goku because now they can milk his uber coolness.

Gohan trained for less than 40 hrs in preparation for the ToP and went from base tier to SSB tier. It's even more extreme in the manga since he makes that jump in less than 40 minutes. Why wouldn't a new form make him surpass UI Goku?

It's just how he is.

Gohan actually went from Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level, to ToP SSB general level in under either 9 hours or 5 hours, he took time training with Piccolo before he was able to re-awaken Ultimate and then they trained for 5 or 9 hours after that which Skyrocketed Gohans power to that insane degree. In the Manga he goes from Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level, to SS Kefla level in less than 40 mins like you pointed out. They always bitch and moan whenever Gohan is involved though so what's new.

[ZombieVito]

Gohan actually went from Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level, to ToP SSB general level in under either 9 hours or 5 hours, he took time training with Piccolo before he was able to re-awaken Ultimate and then they trained for 5 or 9 hours after that which Skyrocketed Gohans power to that insane degree. In the Manga he goes from Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level, to SS Kefla level in less than 40 mins like you pointed out. They always bitch and moan whenever Gohan is involved though so what's new.

He went from Ultimate Boo arc tier to current SS2 tier training with Piccolo. Once he fights with Goku, he adapts and reaches SSB tier. A motivated Gohan is no joke lol.

People also like to say that Gohan slacked off again by Super Hero but he did learn the Makankosappo so he must have done some training.

[QuakingStar]

Gohan actually went from Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level, to ToP SSB general level in under either 9 hours or 5 hours, he took time training with Piccolo before he was able to re-awaken Ultimate and then they trained for 5 or 9 hours after that which Skyrocketed Gohans power to that insane degree. In the Manga he goes from Buu Saga Ultimate Gohan level, to SS Kefla level in less than 40 mins like you pointed out. They always bitch and moan whenever Gohan is involved though so what's new.

He went from Ultimate Boo arc tier to current SS2 tier training with Piccolo. Once he fights with Goku, he adapts and reaches SSB tier. A motivated Gohan is no joke lol.

People also like to say that Gohan slacked off again by Super Hero but he did learn the Makankosappo so he must have done some training.

I think in SH terms of power, he didn't shrink from beforehand he must have only upkept his power through some occasional training and while he did so he learned how to use Special Beam Canon. He just didn't get any stronger from the Moro Arc with his base state and SS forms, but with Ultimate it clearly got much stronger again, reaching the currents Arcs SSB tier.

[SupremeKai25]

You do realize that Vegeta getting SSJ4 in GT was actually unearned, right? Bro literally went through 0 training/hardship and just asked Bulma to make him the bullshit machine that hands out SSJ4 for free.

There was never a machine that handed out Ssj4 for free; that never happened. All the machine did was turn him into a REGULAR great ape, something he was more than capable of doing had he took the time to get his tail pulled out and wait for the full moon. Transforming into a golden ape, remembering who he was, then finally transforming into Ssj4 was all his doing. This belief that the machine is what turned him into Ssj4 has zero basis in reality, yet for some reason it's what most people believe. As for training, we saw him training in episode 55, remembering everything that led to where he was at the current moment, then finally discussing the idea with Bulma. It may not have been perfect, but it was set up far better than Blue Evolution, I can tell you that much.

The machine turned him into an oozaru, and so without it he would never have been able to achieve SSJ4. Yet you will call Rosé an asspull, just because Black stole Goku's body to get the physical conditions for that form, forgetting that Black had to fight, train, and be beaten up for an entire year before he could finally reach the conditions to trigger the transformation.

"Oh but Vegeta had to control the oozaru form and keep his sanity and" Cool, you can make the exact same argument for Black. He had to get used to a body that was alien to him.

Then you say that it's justified because he trained in ONE EPISODE, ONE, forgetting that, following your very own logic, SSB is justified because Goku and Vegeta were training for a much longer time at Beerus' planet. You said it would be bad writing if Goku didn't get a new form after training for 7 years with the Kais, but you can't apply the same logic to SSB: it would also be bad writing if Goku trained for months with Whis himself and never got a new Super Saiyan form.

If you can't see the obvious double-standards compared to modern DB, that's the nostalgia talking.

You are quite literally holding Modern DB to a much higher standard than you held the old DBZ and GT.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

You will call Rosé an asspull...

Actually, I don't. I'm not fan of how Blue itself was introduced, but I have no issue with Black having access to a form his host body can already use. I had no issue when Baby was able to use Vegeta's powers, so naturally I don't with Black.

You are quite literally holding Modern DB to a much higher standard than you held the old DBZ and GT.

Not at all. There are issues in modern DB that were also present in classic DB that I called out, such as Ssj being handed out like candy to Goten, Trunks, and the U6 Saiyans. What annoys me about modern DB the most is that it has shown that it's capable of putting out high quality content that rivals the original, such as the Battle of Gods movie, Zamasu/Black, and UI in the Tournament of Power. The issue I have is that for every great concept it introduces, it's followed by the likes of Resurrection F, Jiren, and Beast/Orange.

[SupremeKai25]

Whatever. So can people go back to talking about Daima? I'll never understand why the fandom is obsessed with an old series that ended 30 years ago and holds it on some golden pedestal. As if people back in 2004/2005/2006 weren't relentlessly criticizing the Cell and Buu sagas for things that Modern DB is now doing. (yet I'm supposed to believe that these issues all started in 2015)

One of the leading theories elsewhere is that the new form is the one that Lord Beerus saw in his dream, the true Super Saiyan God, as Toriyama decided to use a magenta colour similar to SSG instead of the black from the GT form (and I'm glad he did so since it's a much more beautiful colour)



Modern Dragon Ball has far more complexity than nostalgic people will give it credit for; Ultra Instinct was first foreshadowed around the return of Freeza, 4 arcs before it actually made its debut.

Daima already revealed the origins of the Kaioshin of all twelve universes, including Gowasu. It has also revealed the existence of this mysterious creator god called Rymus who may or may not be related to Grand Zeno. If Daima also drops a lore bomb involving Beerus' mysterious dream, this series will have been a masterful display of world-building and lore done right, and the continuum of Daima and Super will be one of the most well-planned and cohesive stories in the franchise.

[Cursed Lemon]

Goku was training for 7 years with the Kais, so if anything, him not getting such a form would've been bad storytelling. There was also the fact that Goten and especially Trunks kept questioning his greatness, so that was basically a set up for him to blow them and everyone else away with what he'd learned. I'm not against the idea that more could've been done to set it up, but it by no means came out of nowhere.

"It's okay, it happened off screen!"

Absolutely not lmao

As for Gohan, we were promised he'd get a major power boost as a result of training with the sword (which he did, just not how we thought he would), so between that and being forced to sit still for 24 hours (anyone who's been on an international flight knows how hard this is to do), I'd say he earned the power up. Again, like with Ssj3, I think more could've been done to set it up, but I'm not going to pretend that the piece weren't there, I just wish there were more of them.

[nato25]

Whatever. So can people go back to talking about Daima? I'll never understand why the fandom is obsessed with an old series that ended 30 years ago and holds it on some golden pedestal. As if people back in 2004/2005/2006 weren't relentlessly criticizing the Cell and Buu sagas for things that Modern DB is now doing. (yet I'm supposed to believe that these issues all started in 2015)

One of the leading theories elsewhere is that the new form is the one that Lord Beerus saw in his dream, the true Super Saiyan God, as Toriyama decided to use a magenta colour similar to SSG instead of the black from the GT form (and I'm glad he did so since it's a much more beautiful colour)



Modern Dragon Ball has far more complexity than nostalgic people will give it credit for; Ultra Instinct was first foreshadowed around the return of Freeza, 4 arcs before it actually made its debut.

Daima already revealed the origins of the Kaioshin of all twelve universes, including Gowasu. It has also revealed the existence of this mysterious creator god called Rymus who may or may not be related to Grand Zeno. If Daima also drops a lore bomb involving Beerus' mysterious dream, this series will have been a masterful display of world-building and lore done right, and the continuum of Daima and Super will be one of the most well-planned and cohesive stories in the franchise.

I don't think there's going to be any connection at all between SSG and SSJ4 but not long for us to find out.

[SupremeKai25]

I don't think there's going to be any connection at all between SSG and SSJ4 but not long for us to find out.

There is already an implicit connection between SSJ4 and SSG because they have similarly-coloured eye and hair.



It could be that Toriyama simply wanted to change the colour of that ugly GT form. Hmm, I suppose that's possible. Although I don't really believe in coincidences.

I'm crossing my fingers that Lord Beerus will have a cameo in episode 20. If the Super Saiyan God Beerus dreamed of was SSJ4, this will have been one of the most masterful plot twists in the entire franchise. An actually insane lore drop to a 10 years old mystery. And right now, this is a leading theory.

[Yuji]

Piccolo sensed Goku's Ki this episode. It has no connection to the divine forms.

[SupremeKai25]

Piccolo sensed Goku's Ki this episode. It has no connection to the divine forms.

Uhm, Toriyama literally forgot an entire character once. I don't think this is a valid argument to dismiss this theory.

And saying that it has no connection to the divine forms is wrong since it has magenta hair and eyes like SSG.

[Cursed Lemon]

How would undercutting the entire existence of Super Saiyan God be some kind of storytelling master stroke

That's literally just retconning

[SupremeKai25]

How would undercutting the entire existence of Super Saiyan God be some kind of storytelling master stroke

That's literally just retconning

No? The Super Saiyan God Beerus dreamed of had a Saiyan tail, which the SSG that appears in Super does not have. It's been a long-running mystery for 10 years, and while I still believe that god was Yamoshi (who people thought would return in 2018 instead of Broly), now I am open to the possibility that it was SSJ4 and this will tie Daima to Super.

I also expect Goku and Vegeta to become adults again in the next episode thanks to Glorio's wish, which is why Beerus dreamed of an adult Saiyan.

Either way, I'm all for the lore drops. Modern Dragon Ball has introduced the most intriguing and fascinating lore in the entire franchise. We're going back to the history of millions of years ago with Daima. We even discovered the origins of the Kaisohin.

Either way I'm also open to the coincidence that Toriyama simply wanted to change the original colours of ugly SSJ4. And I'm happy that he did, because the original SSJ4 was so ugly! I mean, black hair totally doesn't fit that form at all.

[Yuji]

Piccolo sensed Goku's Ki this episode. It has no connection to the divine forms.

Uhm, Toriyama literally forgot an entire character once. I don't think this is a valid argument to dismiss this theory.

And saying that it has no connection to the divine forms is wrong since it has magenta hair and eyes like SSG.

It shares the same colour as another form, much like UI Sign shares a colour with base form, or MUI with Beast. That's all. Different circumstances, different design, different lore that we know of. It's wishful thinking to believe it's connected to God, plus I agree that making SS4 the real God form all along undercuts all of Goku's journey in Super. If he tapped into his strongest form literally 10 arcs ago and it was never brought up since.

[Luso Saiyan]

Uhm, Toriyama literally forgot an entire character once.

You were just arguing for the existing complexity yet you're quick to dismiss established details that contribute to that very complexity just because Toriyama happened to forget a minor and arguably irrelevant character past a certain point in the story.

[The Monkey King]

There is already an implicit connection between SSJ4 and SSG because they have similarly-coloured eye and hair.

I bet you're one of those people who think Gomah is related to the demon that killed Jiren's parents because they wear similar outfits

Stop talking like you know anything. You're just setting yourself up for embarrassment and disappointment

[Cursed Lemon]

No? The Super Saiyan God Beerus dreamed of had a Saiyan tail, which the SSG that appears in Super does not have. It's been a long-running mystery for 10 years, and while I still believe that god was Yamoshi (who people thought would return in 2018 instead of Broly), now I am open to the possibility that it was SSJ4 and this will tie Daima to Super.

You argue that the vision of SSG Beerus saw had a tail and that counts as a clear and masterful Chekov's gun, but SSJ4 ki being godly AND perceivable at the same time is obviously an error that can be shrugged off? Is the story supposed to make sense or not?

Irrespective of that, if Beerus had said something like "this form is incomplete", you might have a point. The quality of storytelling is how the narrative carries emotional weight and expectations. Connecting the dots after the fact is an exercise in nerdery, not storytelling. There has been absolutely zero in-show speculation about the super saiyan god form, it has no relevance and no stake in the story.

If SSJ4 turns out to be the real super saiyan "god", what happens? How does that actually affect the story? What is the payoff? What is the theme that's been served, what is the overarching plot line that's been fulfilled?