Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[kinisking]

I like the idea that Freeza planned on getting stronger than Boo in his final form, but once he got his golden form, which was far more powerful than he calculated, he stopped midway. Then, when Goku used Super Saiyan, Freeza wouldn't mind to be weaker than Boo, because he would still have that trump card. If Freeza did right, he would probably end up as strong as Frost in the same forms and eliminate the issue with stamina. Frost being an active fighter sort of explains why he is ahead of Freeza, but at the same time explains why he didn't undergo the same kind of training, which Goku pointed in the manga.

No way Freeza is less powerful than boo in final form. Gohans at least ss2 level and was destroyed in first form. Isn't first form like 1% of final form's power?

As far as I remember Gohan was a rusty Super Saiyan, he could be at any level you want, as long as it is above Tagoma's. Freeza's first form had less than 0,5% of Freeza's full power on Namek, but we don't know if the same boost is applied after the training. But he becomes X00 times more powerful when he turns golden, so that might help to reconcile things. After all, when Frost changes from his third form to his final form he should become over 50 times more powerful, but that would more or less clash with Super Saiyan Goku's power boost, since 3rd form Frost is stronger than Base Goku. So, I wouldn't think the gap between Freeza's and Frost's forms should work the same everytime.

Gohan is more powerful than Tagoma which is more powerful than Piccolo. I think that should put Gohan at a much higher level than a regular super saiyan. And you make some good points but still, they'res no way that final form is less than a 25X boost from first form. And since first form trashes gohan it's at least 2x stronger. So final form freeza is about 50x more powerful than a ss2. Buu simply isn't that strong.

[Chiki]

So since Goku and Vegeta in their base forms don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God or retain any kind of Godly ki, this drastically changes changes how I originally viewed Freeza, Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Any thoughts?

If you're assuming that the Base with and without god ki separation hypothesis is false, then this wouldn't explain how Base Goku/Vegeta can keep up with Final Form Frieza. How come Base Goku and Base Vegeta became so powerful that they were able to keep up with Final Form Frieza? Think about it. Beerus in BoG said Base Goku was way below Namek Frieza. Frieza trained a lot since then and so did Goku. The gap in power between Base Goku and Final Form Frieza shouldn't have changed much since both trained. But Base Goku is actually a bit stronger than Final Form Frieza. How is this possible without god ki? I don't think it is.

There's also the chance that there is no real answer and Toriyama hasn't thought this out at all....

[Khin]

So since Goku and Vegeta in their base forms don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God or retain any kind of Godly ki, this drastically changes changes how I originally viewed Freeza, Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Any thoughts?

The kids didn't even think of fusing again when Gohan got his ass kicked by 1st Form Freeza.So i have 1st Form Freeza stronger than SSj3 Gotenks and around Buutenks - Buuhan tier.Base Goku and Final Form Freeza are way above that.

[miguelnuva1]

Ssj Gohan in RF was ssj3 tire and Goku is much stronger than him.

What evidence is there to suggest that ROF SSJ Gohan was SSJ3 tier?

Gohan powers up on Earthand Goku can sense hus power from Beerus's planet. Beforehe couldn't sense Vegeta.

[supercat]

So since Goku and Vegeta in their base forms don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God or retain any kind of Godly ki, this drastically changes changes how I originally viewed Freeza, Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Any thoughts?

The kids didn't even think of fusing again when Gohan got his ass kicked by 1st Form Freeza.So i have 1st Form Freeza stronger than SSj3 Gotenks and around Buutenks - Buuhan tier.Base Goku and Final Form Freeza are way above that.

This basically sums it up quite nicely.

That whole remark about Gohan "thinking" he could go SSJ is not a good indicator of strength in my opinion. I honestly can't envision him being much weaker than his Ultimate incarnation; as an SSJ, he should still be able to muster up enough strength to obliterate Kid Buu.

Worst case scenario, he probably went down a few tiers and lost the ability to leverage all of his latent strength without turning SSJ.

It's funny how people are having a difficult time accepting the fact that a mysterious alien of unknown origin now towers over some magical being in a show where mechanical enhancements could enable two teenagers to trash legendary warriors who have the power to make quick work of a planet-busting galactic tyrant. Not to mention, this is a series known for its track record of sporadic power increases.

What's wrong with First Form Frieza lounging around in some Buuhan-busting-tier, when the weakest form of Buu was leagues above Cell and the weakest form of Cell was worlds above the original Frieza? I've been a fan for well over a decade, and I can't recall anyone trying to cram Buu or Cell into some low-balled tier.

[namekiansaiyan]

In episode 37 there was no evidence saying about base Goku and Vegeta not having the power of a God or God Ki, Once again many people on here are making things up.

You have:
Base
Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one)
Super Saiyan Blue( the new Super Saiyan 2) as Vegeta said it is the latest one.

[dbgtFO]

In episode 37 there was no evidence saying about base Goku and Vegeta not having the power of a God or God Ki, Once again many people on here are making things up.

You have:
Base
Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one)
Super Saiyan Blue( the new Super Saiyan 2) as Vegeta said it is the latest one.

There's still next episode, as Vegeta might just start out in base, but we'll see how it goes. I certainly won't get my hopes up.

[namekiansaiyan]

In episode 37 there was no evidence saying about base Goku and Vegeta not having the power of a God or God Ki, Once again many people on here are making things up.

You have:
Base
Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one)
Super Saiyan Blue( the new Super Saiyan 2) as Vegeta said it is the latest one.

There's still next episode, as Vegeta might just start out in base, but we'll see how it goes. I certainly won't get my hopes up.

I would guess he is in Super Saiyan Blue all the time as in the preview.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In episode 37 there was no evidence saying about base Goku and Vegeta not having the power of a God or God Ki, Once again many people on here are making things up.

You have:
Base
Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one)
Super Saiyan Blue( the new Super Saiyan 2) as Vegeta said it is the latest one.

What?

[namekiansaiyan]

In episode 37 there was no evidence saying about base Goku and Vegeta not having the power of a God or God Ki, Once again many people on here are making things up.

You have:
Base
Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one)
Super Saiyan Blue( the new Super Saiyan 2) as Vegeta said it is the latest one.

What?

Goku and Vegeta being able to turn God Ki on or off has not be proven and they now only have 3 forms which I listed.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In episode 37 there was no evidence saying about base Goku and Vegeta not having the power of a God or God Ki, Once again many people on here are making things up.

You have:
Base
Super Saiyan (Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one)
Super Saiyan Blue( the new Super Saiyan 2) as Vegeta said it is the latest one.

What?

Goku and Vegeta being able to turn God Ki on or off has not be proven and they now only have 3 forms which I listed.

Why are you saying that Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one?

[namekiansaiyan]

Why are you saying that Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one?

Toriyama said we will not see Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again so the Super Saiyan we see now is basically the perfected Super Saiyan and the next level is Super Saiyan Blue just as Vegeta said and is the latest one. So we can now see Super Saiyan Blue as Super Saiyan 2 in theory.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Why are you saying that Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one?

Toriyama said we will not see Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again so the Super Saiyan we see now is basically the perfected Super Saiyan and the next level is Super Saiyan Blue just as Vegeta said and is the latest one. So we can now see Super Saiyan Blue as Super Saiyan 2 in theory.

So, you are saying that regular Super Saiyan gives a x400 boost?

[Overlord78]

So since Goku and Vegeta in their base forms don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God or retain any kind of Godly ki, this drastically changes changes how I originally viewed Freeza, Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Any thoughts?

Well I think they're above the likes of SSJ3 Goku and Kid Buu for reasons I've already explained. How much higher I couldn't say.

It seems kinda odd to think that the Goku who was fighting Frieza in the movie could possibly be weaker than the Gohan who beat Super Buu to me though. I'd probably go with Super Buu level perhaps.

Super Saiyan makes him 50x stronger. SSJB makes him over 10x stronger than that.

It'd make the Golden Form multiplier into the hundreds which seems farfetched but I dunno.

I doubt SSJB is just a 10x boost. It seems to be leaps and bounds beyond the previous SSJ transformations.

[namekiansaiyan]

Why are you saying that Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 into one?

Toriyama said we will not see Super Saiyan 2 and 3 again so the Super Saiyan we see now is basically the perfected Super Saiyan and the next level is Super Saiyan Blue just as Vegeta said and is the latest one. So we can now see Super Saiyan Blue as Super Saiyan 2 in theory.

So, you are saying that regular Super Saiyan gives a x400 boost?

I don't use multipliers as they make no sense anymore really. I just see it as a restructure by Toriyama to make things simpler.

[Lord Beerus]

So since Goku and Vegeta in their base forms don't have the power of a Super Saiyan God or retain any kind of Godly ki, this drastically changes changes how I originally viewed Freeza, Base Goku and Base Vegeta in the ROF arc. Final Form Freeza is certainly not Super Saiyan God tier and but now the speculation is going to begin on how strong Final Form Freeza and Base Goku/Vegeta truly are.

Any thoughts?

The kids didn't even think of fusing again when Gohan got his ass kicked by 1st Form Freeza.So i have 1st Form Freeza stronger than SSj3 Gotenks and around Buutenks - Buuhan tier.Base Goku and Final Form Freeza are way above that.

But wasn't the reason for Goten and Trunks not fusing again was because they couldn't? Considering they defused after right attacking Tagoma and had to wait one hour to fuse again, as per the conditions of the fusion technique. Hell, Gotenks was actually confident about taking on Freeza, and then when he was about to, he defused.

[Hugo Boss]

If you're assuming that the Base with and without god ki separation hypothesis is false, then this wouldn't explain how Base Goku/Vegeta can keep up with Final Form Frieza. How come Base Goku and Base Vegeta became so powerful that they were able to keep up with Final Form Frieza? Think about it. Beerus in BoG said Base Goku was way below Namek Frieza. Frieza trained a lot since then and so did Goku. The gap in power between Base Goku and Final Form Frieza shouldn't have changed much since both trained. But Base Goku is actually a bit stronger than Final Form Frieza. How is this possible without god ki? I don't think it is.

There's also the chance that there is no real answer and Toriyama hasn't thought this out at all....

Being possible or not it's how it is, they only use godly ki in SSB. The series doesn't explain why but I guess we can infer from the context. Whis said that in order to become more powerful they should not use Super Saiyan while training. They even had the opportunity to spar with Whis himself and to train in a place only gods could freely move. Those things combined can probably explain why Goku and Vegeta became so strong. Not to mention Vegeta started much earlier and had time to catch up with Goku's level after he fought Beerus, which was already enough to allow him to feel the ki of gods, something he couldn't do previously because he wasn't powerful enough. Freeza surely trained and became a lot stronger but he relied too much on his ace.

Gohan powers up on Earth and Goku can sense his power from Beerus' planet. Before he couldn't sense Vegeta.

SS3 Goku's power was felt when none was looking for him, he caught everyone by surprise, including the ones in Kaioshin's realm. Beerus' planet is within the universe and Goku had to look for the people he wanted to locate.

[apex_pretador]

Sorry for sounding like a scratched record, but do you guys seem how contrived it is to try to follow these multiplier rules? Wouldn't it be much better to follow the plot and power-scaling.

I mean Cabba base is equal to Vegeta's, yet there's a significant gap between their SSJ forms. At least that's how I see it, Vegeta tanked a full powered punch and didn't receive any damage from Cabba onslaught. Plus he smiled right before waving away his ki blast, who were supposed to be forcing him to defend.

Well wouldn't Vegeta be a MSSJ? Shouldn't that give him a greater boost power over the regular SSJ which was why Vegeta seemed stronger?

That said it is possible in real life for one person to punch someone of equal strenght and that person could tank the punch.

Yeah, mastering super saiyan must acocunt for something. Vegeta's Super Saiyan is superior to Cabba.

Also, it isn't possible IRL to tank a punch straight ti face, even by a weaker opponent.

Also, nothing to put SS gohan above piccolo in buu arc. We know that piccolo was "excited" to fight in budokai where super saiyans including goku, gohan, vegeta were going to fight. He can't sense god ki (Kaioshin matter) either.

Actually, we have Piccolo saying Kaioshin was stronger than him, but you could still argue he was mistaken or lying. Babidi put Kibito, Kuririn and Piccolo in the same ballpark and Dabra defeated them very quickly, while he had some trouble damaging Super Saiyan Gohan.

Dabra didn't "defeat" piccolo. He got him with his spit unknowingly.
Also, see the highlighted text. I'm not saying that kaioshin is weaker than piccolo, but that he "doesn't have to be" stronger than him. Kaioshin also fought buu better than SS gohan ever did, and dabura is heavily implied to not fight seriously against gohan.

So it looks like Piccolo isn't God tier after all and the U6 fighters, excluding Hit, are practically weaklings. In hindsight, losing Majin Boo really was a huge blow because he would have stomped all of U6 fighters in his path, excluding Hit. I mean, none of the U6 apart from Hit seem to be not even close to Majin Boo arc SSJ tier strength, while Majin Boo himself is on the low end of SSJ3 tier strength and at the very minimum on the high end of SSJ2 tier strength. No wonder Vegeta was so upset about losing Majin Boo early on, he really would have turned the tide for them in the tournament.

not being god tier doesn't mean they would get stomped by buu. Super Vegetto isn't god tier either.

[Bullza]

But didn't Freeza himself say that he had an immense amount of latent potential that he never bothered to tap into because he didn't need to and if he trained to achieve that unlock the latent potential he had he could defeat Goku?

He said something about how it would take him 4 months to unlock his latent potential. Then later in the movie we're told that the second he reached his Golden Form he rushed to Earth which perhaps makes it sound like it was something he wasn't expecting.

If he'd never trained before and no other being in his race had ever reached a Golden Form then it doesn't make much sense for him to know about it.

That's like Goku knowing that with training he could become a Super Saiyan in the original Dragon Ball.

As I pointed out before as well, Frieza was told Goku defeated Buu but when he fought him he initially fought him in his Final Form. If his Final Form was weaker than Buu then why would he fight someone who beat someone stronger than himself?

Also, it isn't possible IRL to tank a punch straight ti face, even by a weaker opponent.

There are videos on YouTube of regular guys punching other regular guys in the face hard and them barely budging at all.

Not to the extent that they wouldn't move at all but yeah I've seen people take a punch and show no effect at all from it. Like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soJBI2jtc90

[apex_pretador]

Also, it isn't possible IRL to tank a punch straight ti face, even by a weaker opponent.

There are videos on YouTube of regular guys punching other regular guys in the face hard and them barely budging at all.

Not to the extent that they wouldn't move at all but yeah I've seen people take a punch and show no effect at all from it. Like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soJBI2jtc90

I was talking about DBZ style tank - like #16 vs semi cell or vegeta vs cabba.
Also, in the video you posted, it is clear that the "steel chin kid" budged a lot. It is also said that that guy is very tough.