Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

After all, anything Goku can do, Black can also potentially do it and better.

I don’t understand how you made this assumption.

It's not an assumption, it's a fact.

Goku and Black have the exact same body and cells. The only difference is that Black quite clearly has far more potential than Goku.

In the anime, Black was literally so strong that Goku had to team up with Vegeta just to survive against his clones. So the fact that Black is better than Goku at everything he does is obvious in the anime, admittedly in the manga Black is less impressive. But then again, so is every other character in the manga.

Black didn’t accomplish anything remotely close to what Goku did

Because he died? Of course in the end Goku ended up stronger than Black. Goku survived while Black didn't, so he had more years to grow stronger, this is irrelevant to my point.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Does Gohan not being able to make it through and being harmed when Seven Three uses Moro's powers to create the flame shield whereas Buu simply flew through it no bother indicate that Buu is above Gohan?

[ZombieVito]

So why are people ignoring that neither Goku Black nor Fused Zamasu ever mastered/perfected Super Saiyan Rosé (in the manga at least, since this form only exists in the manga)?

Not only it can be argued that current Goku Black is stronger than Kefla (since he was strong enough to force SSB Vegeta to come up with alternative, quirky ways to beat him, in a straight up brawl he was superior to Vegeta), but then during the fight the writers would just have Black figure out how to perfect Rosé. Literally the exact same way Goku did against Fused Zamasu. Then Black would get the upper-hand against Kefla.

After all, anything Goku can do, Black can also potentially do it and better.

And for the record, I am willing to make the same argument for the anime. Goku survived that long against Kefla, no reason Black can't, especially with his clones hax. Goku tapped into UI while fighting Kefla, no reason why Black can't.

Goku Black is not stronger than Kefla in either continuity.

[SupremeKai25]

So why are people ignoring that neither Goku Black nor Fused Zamasu ever mastered/perfected Super Saiyan Rosé (in the manga at least, since this form only exists in the manga)?

Not only it can be argued that current Goku Black is stronger than Kefla (since he was strong enough to force SSB Vegeta to come up with alternative, quirky ways to beat him, in a straight up brawl he was superior to Vegeta), but then during the fight the writers would just have Black figure out how to perfect Rosé. Literally the exact same way Goku did against Fused Zamasu. Then Black would get the upper-hand against Kefla.

After all, anything Goku can do, Black can also potentially do it and better.

And for the record, I am willing to make the same argument for the anime. Goku survived that long against Kefla, no reason Black can't, especially with his clones hax. Goku tapped into UI while fighting Kefla, no reason why Black can't.

Goku Black is not stronger than Kefla in either continuity.

Yeah I agree. I can't argue with that evidence.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah I agree. I can't argue with that evidence.

The evidence is actually watching/reading Super.

[Koitsukai]

Black doesn't even start to comprehend what's needed to achieve UI, it's Goku's mind what got him there, not his body. How is he going to do that on the spot when, in both continuities, he got cornered and went the other route?

Zamasu is never shown with an aura until he loses his composure vs Goku. His immortality refills his energy bar, too, and seems to act like MSSB for Goku, keeping his power always at its highest.

--

Following the discussion about that arc, were Gohan and Kefla as strong as MSSB Goku from the FT arc? stronger? weaker?

How strong were Freeza, Goku and Jiren on their last bout?
What about the manga, how strong was Jiren when he withstood the beam attack from Goku and Vegeta?

[SupremeKai25]

Yeah I agree. I can't argue with that evidence.

The evidence is actually watching/reading Super.

"Just watch/read Super" thanks for the input.

[Hugo Boss]

After all, anything Goku can do, Black can also potentially do it and better.

I don’t understand how you made this assumption.

It's not an assumption, it's a fact.

Goku and Black have the exact same body and cells. The only difference is that Black quite clearly has far more potential than Goku.

In the anime, Black was literally so strong that Goku had to team up with Vegeta just to survive against his clones. So the fact that Black is better than Goku at everything he does is obvious in the anime, admittedly in the manga Black is less impressive. But then again, so is every other character in the manga.

Black didn’t accomplish anything remotely close to what Goku did

Because he died? Of course in the end Goku ended up stronger than Black. Goku survived while Black didn't, so he had more years to grow stronger, this is irrelevant to my point.

The fact is that Black wasn’t able to muster everything Goku could do beyond Super Saiyan Blue even when Goku was from an age before the one Black took the body from, I’m not even talking about things that Goku accomplished later.

Since you are focusing on “anime” Black, he couldn’t replicate Blue Kaioken, which was a technique he saw through the footage on god tube. So, it doesn’t matter if his Super Saiyan Rosé could beat Goku’s Super Saiyan Blue on paper, if he couldn’t even use Goku’s strongest move he had knowledge of.

Besides, Black would probably have died from Goku’s full powered kamehameha with Super Saiyan Blue if the other Zamasu’s immortality didn’t save him, as half of his body was decaying. So, even Goku’s Super Saiyan Blue is capable of managing Black’s Rosé.

Potential is useless if Black doesn’t have what takes to reach it. Let’s try to not project things that never happened.

[SupremeKai25]

I don’t understand how you made this assumption.

It's not an assumption, it's a fact.

Goku and Black have the exact same body and cells. The only difference is that Black quite clearly has far more potential than Goku.

In the anime, Black was literally so strong that Goku had to team up with Vegeta just to survive against his clones. So the fact that Black is better than Goku at everything he does is obvious in the anime, admittedly in the manga Black is less impressive. But then again, so is every other character in the manga.

Black didn’t accomplish anything remotely close to what Goku did

Because he died? Of course in the end Goku ended up stronger than Black. Goku survived while Black didn't, so he had more years to grow stronger, this is irrelevant to my point.

The fact is that Black wasn’t able to muster everything Goku could do beyond Super Saiyan Blue even when Goku was from an age before the one Black took the body from, I’m not even talking about things that Goku accomplished later.

What Goku accomplished later is going to a level "beyond SSB"... of course Black couldn't accomplish anything beyond SSB, the writing started introducing forms beyond SSB only in the following arc, when Black was already dead.

e couldn’t replicate Blue Kaioken

There's no evidence he couldn't. And given how the technique was invented by a North Kai, which is the position Zamasu had, there's no scientific reason why he couldn't go Kaioken.

it doesn’t matter if his Super Saiyan Rosé could beat Goku’s Super Saiyan Blue on paper,

Not on paper though? We literally saw Black 1v2 the SSB Saiyans just with his clones.

Black would probably have died from Goku’s full powered kamehameha

When Zamasu had his face scarred, he was hit by Kamehameha and also by his own attack exploding on his face.

I have no problem believing that Black would be destroyed if he was hit simultaneously by a full power Kamehameha and by Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath. If he was only hit by full power Kamehameha though? I'd need more evidence to conclude he'd die from it.

Potential is useless if Black doesn’t have what takes to reach it.

Why does he not have what it takes to reach his full potential (if it even exists a "full potential" for Black/Zamasu, given how he has a literal Infinite form)? Does he not have Goku's biological body? Why can Goku reach that potential but not Black?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’ll have to agree with SupremeKai25 for once (except the laughable Black > Kefla bit). Goku spent the whole saga lagging behind and ultimately it was Vegeta who had to take the lead. In the anime it’s even more obvious since Black had them under his thumb before he left off to merge with Zamasu. I don’t think he could’ve pulled off UI because of his spirit/mind not being as sharp as Goku’s, but he could easily reach the same heights SSJB Goku has reached.

I’m not sure if Black could’ve used Kaio-Ken though, since we have no idea how learning Kaio-Ken even works. The writers totally forget about it until Goku fought MZ though, so I don’t blame Black for not using it. He was fine without it, after all.

Black doesn't even start to comprehend what's needed to achieve UI, it's Goku's mind what got him there, not his body. How is he going to do that on the spot when, in both continuities, he got cornered and went the other route?

Zamasu is never shown with an aura until he loses his composure vs Goku. His immortality refills his energy bar, too, and seems to act like MSSB for Goku, keeping his power always at its highest.

--

Following the discussion about that arc, were Gohan and Kefla as strong as MSSB Goku from the FT arc? stronger? weaker?

How strong were Freeza, Goku and Jiren on their last bout?
What about the manga, how strong was Jiren when he withstood the beam attack from Goku and Vegeta?

Goku is busy farming between the FT Saga and the ToP, so I think he should be pretty much the same. I’m leaning towards Vados’ prediction of Kefla as “unmatched in this battlefied” turning out to be too early and inaccurate, so I don’t think Gohan and Kefla are stronger than Gohan.

So going by Kuririn’s statement Gohan isn’t stronger than Goku, but that doesn’t mean they can’t be equals. Keep in mind 17 is nearly as strong as Goku, yet Piccolo said Gohan is Earth’s strongest warrior when Goku and Vegeta were on Namek. The SSJBs, Gohan, Golden Freeza and 17 are all about as strong as each other like in the anime.

Some people think Goku and Freeza were stronger than 17 in the end of the tournament since androids have infinite stamina, but I call bs on that. 17 is on his knees asking Freeza to finish Jiren, he can’t tire but he can definitely be damaged. When he revealed himself alive he was struggling to get up and said his fake self destruction could’ve killed him, so he was already fairly weakened before he and Jiren smacked each other.

In the end I think they can really be anywhere since they’re all ridiculously past their limits. I want to say Namek level given the SSJ Goku/Freeza shot, but that might be too low?

Jiren actually held Freeza’s Death Ball, so he’s still stronger than Base Freeza. Goku and Vegeta look pretty beaten up, but stamina aside their base powers were probably the same given their feats.

[SupremeKai25]

I’ll have to agree with SupremeKai25 for once (except the laughable Black > Kefla bit). Goku spent the whole saga lagging behind and

I find it funny how people in this thread act like it's so obvious that "Kefla is stronger than Black" then are completely and utterly dismissive towards me and don't even try to present evidence (like the guy earlier who literally just told me to "watch the show").

In what world does Black stand no chance against Kefla when Kefla was defeated individually by Goku and Gohan?

To begin with, Kefla has no answer whatsoever to the "Work of the Gods" technique. The technique cannot be countered by anything and anyone since it ceases to exist only when Black leaves the scene, and each of the endless clones created by the technique are all able to hurt a Super Saiyan Blue and constantly regenerate any damage taken.

[ZombieVito]

I find it funny how people in this thread act like it's so obvious that "Kefla is stronger than Black" then are completely and utterly dismissive towards me and don't even try to present evidence (like the guy earlier who literally just told me to "watch the show").

In what world does Black stand no chance against Kefla when Kefla was defeated individually by Goku and Gohan?

To begin with, Kefla has no answer whatsoever to the "Work of the Gods" technique. The technique cannot be countered by anything and anyone since it ceases to exist only when Black leaves the scene, and each of the endless clones created by the technique are all able to hurt a Super Saiyan Blue and constantly regenerate any damage taken.

If you had watch the show you will remember that Whis stated that Kefla rivaled the Genkidama that Goku did against Jiren. She is flat out 20 times stronger than Black with just Super Saiyan.

In the manga she also has a big advantage over him since she is PSSB level. Black is vastly inferior.

[SupremeKai25]

I find it funny how people in this thread act like it's so obvious that "Kefla is stronger than Black" then are completely and utterly dismissive towards me and don't even try to present evidence (like the guy earlier who literally just told me to "watch the show").

In what world does Black stand no chance against Kefla when Kefla was defeated individually by Goku and Gohan?

To begin with, Kefla has no answer whatsoever to the "Work of the Gods" technique. The technique cannot be countered by anything and anyone since it ceases to exist only when Black leaves the scene, and each of the endless clones created by the technique are all able to hurt a Super Saiyan Blue and constantly regenerate any damage taken.

If you had watch the show you will remember that Whis stated that Kefla rivaled the Genkidama that Goku did against Jiren. She is flat out 20 times stronger than Black with just Super Saiyan.

Imagine just telling me this right away, instead of being rude towards me and insinuating that I didn't watch the show just because I don't remember one line about power-scaling.

Still not conclusive evidence. Rivalling something =/= being equal to something. Kefla rivalling the Spirit Bomb isn't evidence that she's equal in power to that Spirit Bomb. Furthermore, Goku in SSB was still having a good match against her. Does that mean SSB is enough to match that Spirit Bomb?

I'm also interested to know the precise statement that is said. Did Whis compare Kefla to the Spirit Bomb in terms of power, or simply because they both made Goku tap into UI?

In the manga she also has a big advantage over him since she is PSSB level. Black is vastly inferior.

Goku perfected SSB while fighting a fused being, there's no reason why Black can't perfect SSR while doing the same.

[ZombieVito]

Imagine just telling me this right away, instead of being rude towards me and insinuating that I didn't watch the show just because I don't remember one line about power-scaling.

Still not conclusive evidence. Rivalling something =/= being equal to something. Kefla rivalling the Spirit Bomb isn't evidence that she's equal in power to that Spirit Bomb. Furthermore, Goku in SSB was still having a good match against her. Does that mean SSB is enough to match that Spirit Bomb?

I'm also interested to know the precise statement that is said. Did Whis compare Kefla to the Spirit Bomb in terms of power, or simply because they both made Goku tap into UI?

Goku perfected SSB while fighting a fused being, there's no reason why Black can't perfect SSR while doing the same.

We have known this about Kefla since 5 years ago. It's common knowledge when it comes to power scaling.

Rivaling is being close to something in power. The Genkidama should be stronger than SSB KKx20 Goku so rivaling that makes Kefla around the level of that Goku and yes, Whis says power.

The same fused being couldn't master SSR in the same battle. Manga Black/Zamasu are just that pathetic.

[SupremeKai25]

We have known this about Kefla since 5 years ago. It's common knowledge when it comes to power scaling.

Rivaling is being close to something in power. The Genkidama should be stronger than SSB KKx20 Goku so rivaling that makes Kefla around the level of that Goku and yes, Whis says power.

What we also know for years is that power isn't everything. Power isn't the only factor in battle, hax also matters. Just look at Roshi lasting for longer than 1 second against Jiren, or Moro in general as a character.

Kefla might have more raw brute strength than Black, but Black outclasses her in hax, by a lot (which isn't hard, Kefla has no hax whatsoever, all she has is brute physical strength). Black could literally create his own "pocket dimension" and summon an endless army of immortal clones who can evidently hurt two SSBs.

The idea that power alone is enough to conclude that Kefla beats Black would be to ignore all the lessons Super is trying to tell, primarily that hax and technique are just as important as power. So what is Kefla's answer to this technique exactly (sadly there is no manga counterpart, since, as you said, these characters are more pathetic in the manga):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuo5h4HKXY


You say Kefla is 20 times stronger than Black, I can just argue that Black makes up that gap with his endless army of clones, each clone possessing SSB-level AP.

[Thani]

Imagine just telling me this right away, instead of being rude towards me and insinuating that I didn't watch the show just because I don't remember one line about power-scaling.

Still not conclusive evidence. Rivalling something =/= being equal to something. Kefla rivalling the Spirit Bomb isn't evidence that she's equal in power to that Spirit Bomb. Furthermore, Goku in SSB was still having a good match against her. Does that mean SSB is enough to match that Spirit Bomb?

I'm also interested to know the precise statement that is said. Did Whis compare Kefla to the Spirit Bomb in terms of power, or simply because they both made Goku tap into UI?

Goku perfected SSB while fighting a fused being, there's no reason why Black can't perfect SSR while doing the same.

We have known this about Kefla since 5 years ago. It's common knowledge when it comes to power scaling.

Rivaling is being close to something in power. The Genkidama should be stronger than SSB KKx20 Goku so rivaling that makes Kefla around the level of that Goku and yes, Whis says power.

The same fused being couldn't master SSR in the same battle. Manga Black/Zamasu are just that pathetic.

TO BE FAIR, besides being pathetic, manga Black/Zamasu for some reason was completely dismissive of Super Saiyan Blue as a worthless transformation (despite the fact that he was using that very same form, only pink in colour). So it's very likely that he didn't even consider that he could "perfect" his own form, since he already believed himself to be perfect.

[Hugo Boss]

It's not an assumption, it's a fact.

Goku and Black have the exact same body and cells. The only difference is that Black quite clearly has far more potential than Goku.

In the anime, Black was literally so strong that Goku had to team up with Vegeta just to survive against his clones. So the fact that Black is better than Goku at everything he does is obvious in the anime, admittedly in the manga Black is less impressive. But then again, so is every other character in the manga.


Because he died? Of course in the end Goku ended up stronger than Black. Goku survived while Black didn't, so he had more years to grow stronger, this is irrelevant to my point.

The fact is that Black wasn’t able to muster everything Goku could do beyond Super Saiyan Blue even when Goku was from an age before the one Black took the body from, I’m not even talking about things that Goku accomplished later.

What Goku accomplished later is going to a level "beyond SSB"... of course Black couldn't accomplish anything beyond SSB, the writing started introducing forms beyond SSB only in the following arc, when Black was already dead.

e couldn’t replicate Blue Kaioken

There's no evidence he couldn't. And given how the technique was invented by a North Kai, which is the position Zamasu had, there's no scientific reason why he couldn't go Kaioken.

it doesn’t matter if his Super Saiyan Rosé could beat Goku’s Super Saiyan Blue on paper,

Not on paper though? We literally saw Black 1v2 the SSB Saiyans just with his clones.

Black would probably have died from Goku’s full powered kamehameha

When Zamasu had his face scarred, he was hit by Kamehameha and also by his own attack exploding on his face.

I have no problem believing that Black would be destroyed if he was hit simultaneously by a full power Kamehameha and by Fused Zamasu's Holy Wrath. If he was only hit by full power Kamehameha though? I'd need more evidence to conclude he'd die from it.

Potential is useless if Black doesn’t have what takes to reach it.

Why does he not have what it takes to reach his full potential (if it even exists a "full potential" for Black/Zamasu, given how he has a literal Infinite form)? Does he not have Goku's biological body? Why can Goku reach that potential but not Black?

I think you are forgetting to mention the three versions of Goku that are stronger than the regular use of Super Saiyan Blue that Black can beat.

1) Super Saiyan Blue with rage boost: the one that surpassed Black but got shafted after Black powered-up ala ultra ego.

2) Super Saiyan Blue with pride boost: this version is much stronger than the one above, surpassing Vegeta and Trunks, and was capable of winning against Merged Zamasu in a beam struggle. This version is arguably stronger than Black’s Super Saiyan Rosé that was using the smoke doppelgänger technique.

3) Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken: this version surpassed Merged Zamasu and forced him to transform. There is no doubt this version of Goku can beat Black.

Black can probably replicate the Super Saiyan Blue with rage boost version, which based on his discourse is what he used to surpass Vegeta. But he didn’t replicate the pride boost nor the Kaioken versions, I would say for obvious reasons.

You can excuse that he doesn’t understand emotional drive to make himself stronger but Kaioken is something he should be familiar with. You could say such high risk move doesn’t suit him, his style is abusing “ultra ego”.

So, your argument basically boils down to “there is no scientific evidence that Black couldn’t do this or that”, when in truth it’s expected you demonstrate what you are defending, instead of transferring the burden unilaterally.

Having Goku’s body doesn’t warrant that Black can do anything Goku can, particularly the boosts he showcased against Merged Zamasu in the Super Saiyan Blue form.

[ZombieVito]

What we also know for years is that power isn't everything. Power isn't the only factor in battle, hax also matters. Just look at Roshi lasting for longer than 1 second against Jiren, or Moro in general as a character.

Kefla might have more raw brute strength than Black, but Black outclasses her in hax, by a lot (which isn't hard, Kefla has no hax whatsoever, all she has is brute physical strength). Black could literally create his own "pocket dimension" and summon an endless army of immortal clones who can evidently hurt two SSBs.

The idea that power alone is enough to conclude that Kefla beats Black would be to ignore all the lessons Super is trying to tell, primarily that hax and technique are just as important as power. So what is Kefla's answer to this technique exactly (sadly there is no manga counterpart, since, as you said, these characters are more pathetic in the manga):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwuo5h4HKXY


You say Kefla is 20 times stronger than Black, I can just argue that Black makes up that gap with his endless army of clones, each clone possessing SSB-level AP.

Dude, it's a 20 times power gap. 40 with Super Saiyan 2. There's no scenario where Black beats her. She can speed blitz and kill him with one hit in less than a second.

TO BE FAIR, besides being pathetic, manga Black/Zamasu for some reason was completely dismissive of Super Saiyan Blue as a worthless transformation (despite the fact that he was using that very same form, only pink in colour). So it's very likely that he didn't even consider that he could "perfect" his own form, since he already believed himself to be perfect.

While Toei made Zamasu a cunning villain, Toyotaro made him a moron. This is one prime example of that.

[Goku9001]

I’ll have to agree with SupremeKai25 for once (except the laughable Black > Kefla bit). Goku spent the whole saga lagging behind and

I find it funny how people in this thread act like it's so obvious that "Kefla is stronger than Black" then are completely and utterly dismissive towards me and don't even try to present evidence (like the guy earlier who literally just told me to "watch the show").

In what world does Black stand no chance against Kefla when Kefla was defeated individually by Goku and Gohan?

To begin with, Kefla has no answer whatsoever to the "Work of the Gods" technique. The technique cannot be countered by anything and anyone since it ceases to exist only when Black leaves the scene, and each of the endless clones created by the technique are all able to hurt a Super Saiyan Blue and constantly regenerate any damage taken.

This is a disingenuous argument. We both know that Kefla in both continuities were pitted against stronger opponents. In the manga, Goku Black explicitly lost his battle against Blue Vegeta in the anime and his Blue power hadn't been perfected yet. In the case of the anime, the narrator of episode 66 states that Merged Zamasu displayed overwhelming power against the Saiyans. However, the narrator states verbatim that Vegeta and Trunks' combined attacks along with Goku's Kamehameha "began to bear down on Zamasu". The subtext is that Goku and Vegeta were significantly weaker than Merged Zamasu until the time where they launched their strongest attacks.

It should be clear that based on Kefla's ability to fight someone on par with Perfected Blue Goku, a fighter much stronger than the Blue Vegeta that overwhelmed Goku Black would place Kefla as his superior in the manga. Likewise, Kefla was capable of battling a stronger version of Blue Goku than the one Merged Zamasu did in addition to Goku increasing that power by 20-fold with the Kaioken. Kefla's power was stated to have risen to the power of the Genkidama combo that crashed onto Goku. That attack explicitly was similar to the one Trunks had used to kill Merged Zamasu, was commanded by a much stronger warrior than the one that killed Merged Zamasu, and contained both Jiren's and Goku's energies which caused the Genkidama to expand and then explode. That level of power is far beyond SSJR Goku Black's.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So the picture I'm getting from the manga's scaling is that Silver UI Goku drops in strength massively whenever his heart isn't calm which it wasn't at all vs Gas. He was also surprised vs Granolah. Granolah Arc UI Goku has a bunch of panels making expressions that he should not be making in order to maximize UI.

This can actually be a clue to squaring the circle as to how Jiren is stated to be >Gods in the manga, yet was only on par with UI from multiple arcs ago. TOP UI Goku was calmer than Granolah arc Goku and is second to Moro arc Goku in UI accuracy, with his only drawback being that he couldn't last long due to not being trained to use UI.

Silver is stated to be strongest form vs Gas, however he couldn't keep his heart calm consistently enough to get the full benefit of UI, so Omen was the best form to bring out his power. When Goku is calm though, UI surpasses the Omen form used vs Gas.

Moro Arc UI Goku>TOP UI Goku=Jiren>Gods>UI Omen Goku(Saiyan Instinct)>Ultra Ego Vegeta(Peaked battle spirit)>=Gas>Ultra Ego Vegeta(Initial)=Granolah Arc UI Goku(Uncalm) is a possible chain.

Goku only kept his heart calm for a short time vs Jiren and Moro(Before he became one with the Earth at least). He cannot do so in most situations thus Silver's efficiency drops below the God's strength. That is not Goku's normal state of mind.