RandomGuy96 wrote:Oh, the whole amplification issue again. People REALLY like to take that one Kamehameha and apply it to everything, ignoring stuff like...
-Piccolo's technique taking FIVE MINUTES to achieve supposedly x3.5 amplification, when Goku can apparently achieve x2.22 in a few seconds.
-Piccolo tanking Goku's Super Kamehameha.
-Recoome tanking Vegeta's proto-Final Flash
-Goku easily recovering from Freeza's Nova Strike, and attack similar in power to a Kamehameha judging by the beam struggle.
-Freeza easily swatting away Vegeta's mega Galick Gun, while still at a level of power not that far off from base Goku.
-SS3 Goku tanking Buu's Kamehameha.
And many other things. Not to mention that Weekly Jump has Goku being that strong normally, and the Kamehameha being his real power, not anything amplified. I go with that, it makes more sense with everything else considered.
Goku's full power was 416 hence avNanga fact
All the things you have mentioned are blasts which were barely charged and some of them weren't tanked. Regardless, Imperfect Cell has to be at least over 2x stronger than Kamiccolo
Kakashi wrote:Considering that Piccolo's Light Granade should be more than 2.22x amplified it makes no sense that Boo Arc Base Goku is just 30 times stronger than Base Goku vs Freeza
In the 23rd TB arc, Goku & Piccolo were equals, but Piccolo managed to survive Goku's Super Kamehameha, which is an over x2 multiplier, possibly over x3, with minor damage. By your logic, Piccolo is over x2 stronger than Goku.
At that time the amplification was lower than 2x and DB doesn't count as power levels were not made at that time. Piccolo also just survived it but not tanked it. The amp might be inconsistent but the gap between Cell to Kamiccolo must be huge, at least 2.5x gap
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
In the 23rd TB arc, Goku & Piccolo were equals, but Piccolo managed to survive Goku's Super Kamehameha, which is an over x2 multiplier, possibly over x3, with minor damage. By your logic, Piccolo is over x2 stronger than Goku.
Where they? I think Goku had an advantage. My Guess is:
RandomGuy96 wrote:Oh, the whole amplification issue again. People REALLY like to take that one Kamehameha and apply it to everything, ignoring stuff like...
-Piccolo's technique taking FIVE MINUTES to achieve supposedly x3.5 amplification, when Goku can apparently achieve x2.22 in a few seconds.
-Piccolo tanking Goku's Super Kamehameha.
-Recoome tanking Vegeta's proto-Final Flash
-Goku easily recovering from Freeza's Nova Strike, and attack similar in power to a Kamehameha judging by the beam struggle.
-Freeza easily swatting away Vegeta's mega Galick Gun, while still at a level of power not that far off from base Goku.
-SS3 Goku tanking Buu's Kamehameha.
And many other things. Not to mention that Weekly Jump has Goku being that strong normally, and the Kamehameha being his real power, not anything amplified. I go with that, it makes more sense with everything else considered.
Pretty much all this...I've been thinking to use the Weekly jump numbers for Goku during that time now.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Zombie wrote:Yeah, pretty much why I ignore all Ki Attacks now. Just too inconsistent for a PL list.
Just like science in Dragon Ball, I just say "Toriyama does not give a fuck about consistency in his battle powers/amplifiers, he just does what he feels like so there are no specific rules or guidelines."
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
In the 23rd TB arc, Goku & Piccolo were equals, but Piccolo managed to survive Goku's Super Kamehameha, which is an over x2 multiplier, possibly over x3, with minor damage. By your logic, Piccolo is over x2 stronger than Goku.
Where they? I think Goku had an advantage. My Guess is:
Goku: 395
Piccolo: 385
Equals, nearly equals, does it matter?
Kakashi wrote:At that time the amplification was lower than 2x
Says who? Not to mention that this was the Super Kamehameha, while against Raditz, it was the normal Kamehameha, which was a x~2,2 multiplier. So, the Super Kamehameha must have a greater multiplier than that.
Kakashi wrote:DB doesn't count as power levels were not made at that time.
By that logic, BP don't apply to Cell & Boo arcs because they weren't used.
Kakashi wrote:Piccolo also just survived it but not tanked it.
But by your logic, he should be dead or at least extremely injured.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Kakashi wrote:Regardless, tanking ki attacks like Cell did still requires a 2x gap at the very least
Says who?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Kakashi wrote:Regardless, tanking ki attacks like Cell did still requires a 2x gap at the very least
That makes Base Saiyans > Freeza
Neither of those is true. There aren't any clear or strict rules for what feats can be pulled off at what power gaps.
Yes there is. Vegeta can't tank Zarbon's blast because he is not that much ahead of him. If Cell is muchstroner than Piccolo's blast which was much stronger than Piccolo so Cell has to be 2x stronger than Piccolo at least. Piccolo said Cell's Kamehameha we weak because it had Goku's cells from the Saiyan Saga. That means the Light Grenade is beyond that
Kakashi wrote:Neither of those is true. There aren't any clear or strict rules for what feats can be pulled off at what power gaps.
Yes there is.
No... there really aren't. Fans who focus too much on numbers like to make up rules from their own preconceptions and badly-prioritized interpretations of the manga. Never did the manga itself, nor any guidebooks alongside it, ever establish down anything so strict.
If you want to use any such made-up guidelines for your own crafted list, then fine, but don't go around saying things that don't fit with those made-up rules are impossible or "make no sense."
Kaboom wrote:No... there really aren't. Fans who focus too much on numbers like to make up rules from their own preconceptions and badly-prioritized interpretations of the manga. Never did the manga itself, nor any guidebooks alongside it, ever establish down anything so strict.
If you want to use any such made-up guidelines for your own crafted list, then fine, but don't go around saying things that don't fit with those made-up rules are impossible or "make no sense."
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
