Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Koitsukai]

Geets trained to master the god-switch, his overall power probably increased a bit, but nothing to write home about. The purpose of his training was to 'master' both forms at the same time.

The stamina issue is odd, he has an aura, so he should have some drain. Perhaps, being a god and all that, prevented the drain to be a dealbreaker like it is for the saiyans, IDK. But there are definitely some differences between Black and Goku, one turns blue, the other one turns pink, so maybe whatever that causes that change is also causing the form to not be as problematic for Black.

Black Rose seems to be slower than SSG Vegeta but stronger, otherwise why would Vegeta be switching to SSB?

CSSB 10
Bursts of ISSB 5,5
Rose 4,8
Continuous Incomplete SSB 4,3
SSG 4

I tried to keep them close to each other because ISSB, SSR and SSG seem to be pretty damn close, SSG can outran SSR, the other forms can beat each other but they don't win the fight.

I do wonder how much stronger than SS, SS Rosé is. His multipliers don't seem to follow the usual pattern. His base is amazingly strong, but his SS doesn't make him that much stronger, and his final form isn't taking it to a whole new realm either.

[picc]

re: all the talk around blue tier and how Gohan/Piccolo relate to it and Vegeta/Goku

Are we accounting for the movie referencing ToP blue goku and vegeta, and both of their blue forms being much stronger than that at the present moment?

Considering this, Piccolo could easily be above ToP Blue Goku and still below current Goku and Vegeta's blue form, couldn't he?

[Koitsukai]

re: all the talk around blue tier and how Gohan/Piccolo relate to it and Vegeta/Goku

Are we accounting for the movie referencing ToP blue goku and vegeta, and both of their blue forms being much stronger than that at the present moment?

Considering this, Piccolo could easily be above ToP Blue Goku and still below current Goku and Vegeta's blue form, couldn't he?

Pretty much, yeah. The movie probably doesn't take into account the big gains from the Moro and Granny arc, at least not explicitly, but it's been a while since the ToP, and they've kept on training, so they should be stronger than before. I guess Piccolo's Ultimate form will be somewhat weaker than Goku's SSB in the next story, but above the last seen SSB from the anime.

[picc]

re: all the talk around blue tier and how Gohan/Piccolo relate to it and Vegeta/Goku

Are we accounting for the movie referencing ToP blue goku and vegeta, and both of their blue forms being much stronger than that at the present moment?

Considering this, Piccolo could easily be above ToP Blue Goku and still below current Goku and Vegeta's blue form, couldn't he?

Pretty much, yeah. The movie probably doesn't take into account the big gains from the Moro and Granny arc, at least not explicitly, but it's been a while since the ToP, and they've kept on training, so they should be stronger than before. I guess Piccolo's Ultimate form will be somewhat weaker than Goku's SSB in the next story, but above the last seen SSB from the anime.

Right.

So my question about the discussion the past few pages of how Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan relate to current Goku/Vegeta, is how much are we accounting for this vis a vis Goku and Vegeta's new forms? I'm seeing Gohan and Piccolo put on or above SSBE and Omen's power level, when presumably that would work only if they hadn't kept training after the ToP. Which they obviously did, and multiplied their power in almost all ways exponentially. Continued Whis training together, spirit training on yardrat, Merus training, etc.

Orange Piccolo still arguably being weaker than current SSB Goku (or more liberally, KKx20 Goku) and SSBE Vegeta, even if he's stronger than the ToP iterations, means Gohan's Beast power level would have be adjusted for accordingly as well.

I don't even think Beast Gohan is necessarily as strong as Goku's Omen form during the Moro saga. I'm not saying it definitely isn't, or couldn't be -- i'm saying that he could be weaker than Moro arc Omen and everything he did would still make complete sense. Considering how much stronger Goku has gotten since the ToP.

While acknowledging there's lots of room for interpretation and even the fact that AT may not care, I don't see Orange Piccolo as stronger than current Blue KKx20 would be, and I don't see any clear evidence that Gohan Beast is stronger than the recent iteration of Omen.

Let alone in the realm of Ultra Ego, Granolah, or MUI/TUI. And obviously Black Freeza.

Kind of like

Freeza
TUI Goku
UE Vegeta
Granolah
MUI Goku
SSJBE Vegeta
UI Omen Goku/SSJ Broly
Beast Gohan
SSJBKKx20 Goku
Orange Piccolo

Roughly, at least.

[Koitsukai]

re: all the talk around blue tier and how Gohan/Piccolo relate to it and Vegeta/Goku

Are we accounting for the movie referencing ToP blue goku and vegeta, and both of their blue forms being much stronger than that at the present moment?

Considering this, Piccolo could easily be above ToP Blue Goku and still below current Goku and Vegeta's blue form, couldn't he?

Pretty much, yeah. The movie probably doesn't take into account the big gains from the Moro and Granny arc, at least not explicitly, but it's been a while since the ToP, and they've kept on training, so they should be stronger than before. I guess Piccolo's Ultimate form will be somewhat weaker than Goku's SSB in the next story, but above the last seen SSB from the anime.

Right.

So my question about the discussion the past few pages of how Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan relate to current Goku/Vegeta, is how much are we accounting for this vis a vis Goku and Vegeta's new forms? I'm seeing Gohan and Piccolo put on or above SSBE and Omen's power level, when presumably that would work only if they hadn't kept training after the ToP. Which they obviously did, and multiplied their power in almost all ways exponentially. Continued Whis training together, spirit training on yardrat, Merus training, etc.

Orange Piccolo still arguably being weaker than current SSB Goku (or more liberally, KKx20 Goku) and SSBE Vegeta, even if he's stronger than the ToP iterations, means Gohan's Beast power level would have be adjusted for accordingly as well.

I don't even think Beast Gohan is necessarily as strong as Goku's Omen form during the Moro saga. I'm not saying it definitely isn't, or couldn't be -- i'm saying that he could be weaker than Moro arc Omen and everything he did would still make complete sense. Considering how much stronger Goku has gotten since the ToP.

While acknowledging there's lots of room for interpretation and even the fact that AT may not care, I don't see Orange Piccolo as stronger than current Blue KKx20 would be, and I don't see any clear evidence that Gohan Beast is stronger than the recent iteration of Omen.

Let alone in the realm of Ultra Ego, Granolah, or MUI/TUI. And obviously Black Freeza.

Kind of like

Freeza
TUI Goku
UE Vegeta
Granolah
MUI Goku
SSJBE Vegeta
UI Omen Goku/SSJ Broly
Beast Gohan
SSJBKKx20 Goku
Orange Piccolo

Roughly, at least.

I must've misunderstood your previous post, sorry. I meant Ultimate Piccolo will be placed below the current SSB Goku. But Orange Piccolo, hopefully -he might get nerfed, it happened before to other forms and characters- will be somewhere between current SSB and Sign. Tanking a SSB level character like if he was a thick wall, and then knocking them down as easily should at least put him beyond SSB tier.

The starting point is vague enough for the writers (Toei, Toyo, Toriyama...) to interpret it as they please. For instance, the Gammas being relative to SSB could mean their ToP iterations(or DBS BR, which is pretty much the same), so Orange Piccolo would be capping at ToP SSBE at best, and by now -in the manga- he'd be as useless as before. So they can work around it and still have Piccolo be a background character.
Or, it could be that Piccolo meant a post-Broly SSB when gauging the Gammas - where the big gains from the manga took place-, and that would make Orenji Picc quite the adversary, like beyond Saganbo.

Beast Gohan should be above Orange Piccolo, wherever he ends up. The ancillary material places him quite high, with the unseen completed Cell Max being above Broly and all.

Anyway, Orange Piccolo to me is above SS Broly but below those that surpass him (Jiren, FP Broly, Sign, Moro, etc), and Gohan is not clear. Toriyama believes he can be above Goku.

[picc]

I must've misunderstood your previous post, sorry. I meant Ultimate Piccolo will be placed below the current SSB Goku. But Orange Piccolo, hopefully -he might get nerfed, it happened before to other forms and characters- will be somewhere between current SSB and Sign. Tanking a SSB level character like if he was a thick wall, and then knocking them down as easily should at least put him beyond SSB tier.

The starting point is vague enough for the writers (Toei, Toyo, Toriyama...) to interpret it as they please. For instance, the Gammas being relative to SSB could mean their ToP iterations(or DBS BR, which is pretty much the same), so Orange Piccolo would be capping at ToP SSBE at best, and by now -in the manga- he'd be as useless as before. So they can work around it and still have Piccolo be a background character.
Or, it could be that Piccolo meant a post-Broly SSB when gauging the Gammas - where the big gains from the manga took place-, and that would make Orenji Picc quite the adversary, like beyond Saganbo.

Beast Gohan should be above Orange Piccolo, wherever he ends up. The ancillary material places him quite high, with the unseen completed Cell Max being above Broly and all.

Anyway, Orange Piccolo to me is above SS Broly but below those that surpass him (Jiren, FP Broly, Sign, Moro, etc), and Gohan is not clear. Toriyama believes he can be above Goku.

Yeah, I have no idea how the writers are going to implement it into the manga going forward. They could very well just jump Piccolo and especially Gohan to the top of the heap while not caring when the movie took place.

But my interpretation of the movie is that it takes place relatively close to the ToP, before Vegeta and Goku made improvements. So my estimations of Orange Piccolo and Gohan are ostensibly much more conservative, based on the Gammas being ToP blue level and all Super Hero scaling coming from that statement.

I don't have a strong handle on exactly how strong SSJ Broly is compared to everyone in the current manga, but I estimate Beast Gohan as on his approximate level and Orange Piccolo as comfortably below it. Gohan being SSJ Broly level would still easily allow him to destroy ToP Blue and Cell Max many times over. Orange Piccolo being, say 10x stronger than ToP Goku would also allow him to easily do any feat he did in the movie. Even 5x stronger. I think we forget that you don't need to be a million times more powerful than someone to make them look weak.

I'm waiting for an interview where AT confirms Gohan is second strongest to Freeza to prove this is all silly semantics, but until then I'm sticking with scaling Gohan and Piccolo to ToP level Goku and Vegeta.

[ZombieVito]

I must've misunderstood your previous post, sorry. I meant Ultimate Piccolo will be placed below the current SSB Goku. But Orange Piccolo, hopefully -he might get nerfed, it happened before to other forms and characters- will be somewhere between current SSB and Sign. Tanking a SSB level character like if he was a thick wall, and then knocking them down as easily should at least put him beyond SSB tier.

The starting point is vague enough for the writers (Toei, Toyo, Toriyama...) to interpret it as they please. For instance, the Gammas being relative to SSB could mean their ToP iterations(or DBS BR, which is pretty much the same), so Orange Piccolo would be capping at ToP SSBE at best, and by now -in the manga- he'd be as useless as before. So they can work around it and still have Piccolo be a background character.
Or, it could be that Piccolo meant a post-Broly SSB when gauging the Gammas - where the big gains from the manga took place-, and that would make Orenji Picc quite the adversary, like beyond Saganbo.

Beast Gohan should be above Orange Piccolo, wherever he ends up. The ancillary material places him quite high, with the unseen completed Cell Max being above Broly and all.

Anyway, Orange Piccolo to me is above SS Broly but below those that surpass him (Jiren, FP Broly, Sign, Moro, etc), and Gohan is not clear. Toriyama believes he can be above Goku.

Yeah, I have no idea how the writers are going to implement it into the manga going forward. They could very well just jump Piccolo and especially Gohan to the top of the heap while not caring when the movie took place.

But my interpretation of the movie is that it takes place relatively close to the ToP, before Vegeta and Goku made improvements. So my estimations of Orange Piccolo and Gohan are ostensibly much more conservative, based on the Gammas being ToP blue level and all Super Hero scaling coming from that statement.

I don't have a strong handle on exactly how strong SSJ Broly is compared to everyone in the current manga, but I estimate Beast Gohan as on his approximate level and Orange Piccolo as comfortably below it. Gohan being SSJ Broly level would still easily allow him to destroy ToP Blue and Cell Max many times over. Orange Piccolo being, say 10x stronger than ToP Goku would also allow him to easily do any feat he did in the movie. Even 5x stronger. I think we forget that you don't need to be a million times more powerful than someone to make them look weak.

I'm waiting for an interview where AT confirms Gohan is second strongest to Freeza to prove this is all silly semantics, but until then I'm sticking with scaling Gohan and Piccolo to ToP level Goku and Vegeta.

Pan is literally 3 years old in Super Hero.

[Hugo Boss]

the Gammas being ToP blue level and all Super Hero scaling coming from that statement.

While we are on that note, I don’t think we see often SSB tier characters in ToP being walled like when they fought Jiren, Kale and Toppo in the anime. So, Orange Piccolo being at least on par with SSBKaioken/SSBE already seems a very conservative approach for me.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Didn't Trunks gave Vegeta a senzu after Black turned Rose? Also Vegeta had to get stronger in the RoSaT since he never used CSSB in the arc.

As for your last question: That's Toyotaro for you.

Well as someone else said, that was against SSJ Back. But now that you say it, Vegeta should’ve asked for another senzu. If he lost 90% of his power just to one shot Cabba then getting beat up should cost way more power.

Geets trained to master the god-switch, his overall power probably increased a bit, but nothing to write home about. The purpose of his training was to 'master' both forms at the same time.

The stamina issue is odd, he has an aura, so he should have some drain. Perhaps, being a god and all that, prevented the drain to be a dealbreaker like it is for the saiyans, IDK. But there are definitely some differences between Black and Goku, one turns blue, the other one turns pink, so maybe whatever that causes that change is also causing the form to not be as problematic for Black.

Black Rose seems to be slower than SSG Vegeta but stronger, otherwise why would Vegeta be switching to SSB?

CSSB 10
Bursts of ISSB 5,5
Rose 4,8
Continuous Incomplete SSB 4,3
SSG 4

I tried to keep them close to each other because ISSB, SSR and SSG seem to be pretty damn close, SSG can outran SSR, the other forms can beat each other but they don't win the fight.

I do wonder how much stronger than SS, SS Rosé is. His multipliers don't seem to follow the usual pattern. His base is amazingly strong, but his SS doesn't make him that much stronger, and his final form isn't taking it to a whole new realm either.

Yeah Zamasu being a god is probably why he’s not struggling with SSJGSSJ. It comes naturally to him. I don’t think SSJG is suggested to be faster than SSJB, Vegeta was using the bait and switch the whole time. It doesn’t make sense for him to be capable of reacting when you think about it, but Goku was doing the same stuff when fighting the Ginyu Force so it’s fine by me.

It’s really hard to tell SSJR’s multiplier because SSJR and SSJ Black are both unknown. I mean Black could be thousands of times stronger than Blue, but the less the better since Trunks survived him. I like the idea he’s like RoF Goku with the Saiyan Beyond God power, except his base is SSJ3 level instead of God. So SSJ gives a small boost and SSJR is what SSJ is supposed to be now, except Rosé hardly looks stronger than SSJ. He was beating Vegeta either way.

re: all the talk around blue tier and how Gohan/Piccolo relate to it and Vegeta/Goku

Are we accounting for the movie referencing ToP blue goku and vegeta, and both of their blue forms being much stronger than that at the present moment?

Considering this, Piccolo could easily be above ToP Blue Goku and still below current Goku and Vegeta's blue form, couldn't he?

That’s one of the possibilities, and the most likely to be what Toriyama planned. But that depends on whether or not Piccolo has seen Goku after Broly, which could go either way. The anime has a lot more room, and even though a lot of things there could be considered filler, I doubt they’ll do away with KKx20 and SSJBE. Ergo, Orange Piccolo ~ KKx20 is what I’m expecting to see in the anime.

As far as the manga goes, I think sooner or later we’ll have to do the same we do with the other movies: Take away the contradictions and scale it accordingly. Last chapter’s ending seems to be a wink at the movie, and knowing Toyotaro he’ll expect past it, expecting us to either not care or to work it out ourselves. Being that the Granola Saga is still a bit before Super Hero, I can see Jiren and Broly somehow growing stronger. Or maybe that statement doesn’t exist at all in the manga.

[quote=picc post_id=<a href="tel:1751037">1751037</a> time=<a href="tel:1661987294">1661987294</a> user_id=122072]
the Gammas being ToP blue level and all Super Hero scaling coming from that statement.

While we are on that note, I don’t think we see often SSB tier characters in ToP being walled like when they fought Jiren, Kale and Toppo in the anime. So, Orange Piccolo being at least on par with SSBKaioken/SSBE already seems a very conservative approach for me.
[/quote]

You’re right. Toei really nerfed what a 20x gap means. 17, SSJB Goku and SSJBE Vegeta were all fighting Jiren, although Vegeta did seem superior.

[picc]

That’s one of the possibilities, and the most likely to be what Toriyama planned. But that depends on whether or not Piccolo has seen Goku after Broly, which could go either way. The anime has a lot more room, and even though a lot of things there could be considered filler, I doubt they’ll do away with KKx20 and SSJBE. Ergo, Orange Piccolo ~ KKx20 is what I’m expecting to see in the anime.

As far as the manga goes, I think sooner or later we’ll have to do the same we do with the other movies: Take away the contradictions and scale it accordingly. Last chapter’s ending seems to be a wink at the movie, and knowing Toyotaro he’ll expect past it, expecting us to either not care or to work it out ourselves. Being that the Granola Saga is still a bit before Super Hero, I can see Jiren and Broly somehow growing stronger. Or maybe that statement doesn’t exist at all in the manga.

Orange Piccolo being around Blue KKx20 I don't have an inherent problem with. I don't think he NEEDS to be 20x blue to accomplish any of his feats, he could easily do anything he did at 5x ToP blue. But its not a big deal.

But yes, again, all this hinges on what AT is thinking in regards to the current manga vs Super Hero. It seems like the movie takes place very soon after ToP, but I won't be surprised with literally anything we see in the manga going forward. If Gohan is Freeza level and Piccolo is MUI level, it won't shock me at all. But until then, I just don't see any clear evidence either of them are even Omen level.

[sigmasigma]

Bandai wafer stickers new series for Super Hero

Spoiler:

[QuakingStar]

This is 2 years after the ToP and Broly movie, so Broly, Goku and Vegeta are each much stronger than they were back then. In the movie it is revealed they only left Earth a couple weeks ago to go with Whis so Piccolo knows how stronger they are at current times.

The only thing that was incomplete on Cell Max was the mind control program, that's it. So Cell Max in the movie was definitely stronger than Broly. Even if we reach, and say Gamma Suicide attack left Cell Max at half power, Gohan still effortlessly tanked his full force Punch as if nothing happened at all. This means Gohan at bare minimum was twice as strong as Cell Max at that time. This means that Gohan Beast is at bare minimum = to Cell Max at full power which puts him above Broly too.

Now Blue Evolved was in the manga, it was also in the anime. SSBKKx20 was also in the anime, UI- Sign, and UI were in the anime and manga too so at bare minimum Orange Piccolo is SSB Evolved level in power.

The Gammas were compared to Goku and Vegeta, and were said to be the mightiest androids pre-Cell Max activation showing 17 no longer holds that title.

So Gohan >= Cell Max > Broly > Goku = Vegeta = Piccolo> Gammas > 17. This is the simplied order of it as of DBS SH in Age 782.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Even though the wafer stickers aren't really fully indicative, it does seem to align with what I saw, that being how Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo and Gamma 1/2 are generally fairly equivalent in terms of raw power to one another.

[BagetaSama]

Even though the wafer stickers aren't really fully indicative, it does seem to align with what I saw, that being how Ultimate Gohan/Piccolo and Gamma 1/2 are generally fairly equivalent in terms of raw power to one another.

I mean Piccolo prior to unlocking the Orange Piccolo form, was losing to his Gamma, he got thrown

It seems like it goes:
Beast Gohan>Orange Piccolo>Ultimate Gohan>Ultimate Piccolo>Base Piccolo>=<SSJ Gohan>Base Gohan

[BagetaSama]

My biggest concern with the movie power scaling is that it seems like the interview with Toriyama and the movie contradict each other. Piccolo loses to Gamma, and says that he's probably as strong as "those Saiyans" aka Goku and Vegeta, and yet in the interview with Toriyama, I've seen translations both that Orange Piccolo "rivals Goku and co" and that he's "on par with Goku and Vegeta" which basically have the same meaning. But Orange Piccolo cannot simultaneously be able to tank Gamma, and one shot him, and rival Goku and Vegeta, if the Gammas are as strong as Goku and Vegeta. So it seems that either Piccolo's line in the movie, or Toriyama's comment in the interview are correct?



Normally I would just attribute this to Toriyama forgetting or being careless about his work, the way that he seems to be with Lunch, SSJ2, the same of DBS, etc etc. But the issue is that Toriyama literally wrote this movie, I assume he wrote a storyboard similar to the DBS Broly movie, so he had to have literally written that line Piccolo had, or something similar. It makes me wonder if this is some kind of a production issue with Toei, adding in something that Toriyama didn't want or something. Because these two statements completely contradict each other, in close proximity, from the guy who wrote the movie.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I always took Ultimate Piccolo's losing performance against Gamma 2 as being more he got overwhelmed from repeated attacks being successfully landed, rather than his overall raw power being inferior, due to Gamma 2 lashing out in anger over his conflict of interest from Piccolo probing him about his allegiances and attacking with raw emotional fury beyond normal. Ultimate Piccolo was focused on probing Gamma 2 for info and trying to get him to see reason, which may have also contributed to his losing performance.

Similar to Piccolo's fight with 17, honestly. Relatively even in raw power, but the artificial human would've won out. In this film's case, instead of an endurance match, Gamma 2 was still able to outmatch Piccolo in combat ability and going much harder than normal thanks to the above emotional outburst, at least in the way I saw the fight.

In another example, once Gamma 1 adjusted to Ultimate Gohan's increased power, the 2 of them were still slugging it out pretty evenly by the time Cell Max arrived.

Also, all 4 of them being relative on-par with one another in raw power level fits the general theme of DBS's scaling lately of having characters roughly equal in power to one another in given forms. SSB/Golden Freeza/Toppo/Ikari Broly, Super Saiyan and base Broly after adjusting, etc., which is also just plain easier to manage than needing a bunch of subtle power differences.

[Mr Baggins]

My biggest concern with the movie power scaling is that it seems like the interview with Toriyama and the movie contradict each other. Piccolo loses to Gamma, and says that he's probably as strong as "those Saiyans" aka Goku and Vegeta, and yet in the interview with Toriyama, I've seen translations both that Orange Piccolo "rivals Goku and co" and that he's "on par with Goku and Vegeta" which basically have the same meaning.

There will always be out-of-universe elements at play when analyzing statements made out of universe.

The comparison Piccolo makes in the film comes from a script that was written long before Goku and Vegeta's current power-ups in the series, and isn't the only thing that would point to the Ultimate forms and the Gammas being roughly in the SSB range. However, the comparison Toriyama makes is distinctly outside of the film's context — it's from recent ancillary material made to celebrate the movie's sales, so it's probably coming from the Toriyama that actively worked on the Granolah arc and was in charge of approving forms like Ultra Ego, at-will Ultra Instinct, etc.

It's a little messy, but if you look at the time those comparisons were drawn, it all lines up. Ultimate Piccolo/Gohan and the Gammas are around the same level, while Orange Piccolo is a good tier higher and closer to Goku and Vegeta's current forms.

[ZombieVito]

I always took Ultimate Piccolo's losing performance against Gamma 2 as being more he got overwhelmed from repeated attacks being successfully landed, rather than his overall raw power being inferior, due to Gamma 2 lashing out in anger over his conflict of interest from Piccolo probing him about his allegiances and attacking with raw emotional fury beyond normal. Ultimate Piccolo was focused on probing Gamma 2 for info and trying to get him to see reason, which may have also contributed to his losing performance.

Similar to Piccolo's fight with 17, honestly. Relatively even in raw power, but the artificial human would've won out. In this film's case, instead of an endurance match, Gamma 2 was still able to outmatch Piccolo in combat ability and going much harder than normal thanks to the above emotional outburst, at least in the way I saw the fight.

In another example, once Gamma 1 adjusted to Ultimate Gohan's increased power, the 2 of them were still slugging it out pretty evenly by the time Cell Max arrived.

Also, all 4 of them being relative on-par with one another in raw power level fits the general theme of DBS's scaling lately of having characters roughly equal in power to one another in given forms. SSB/Golden Freeza/Toppo/Ikari Broly, Super Saiyan and base Broly after adjusting, etc., which is also just plain easier to manage than needing a bunch of subtle power differences.

Both Piccolo and Gamma 2 practically say Piccolo was weaker.

[BagetaSama]

My biggest concern with the movie power scaling is that it seems like the interview with Toriyama and the movie contradict each other. Piccolo loses to Gamma, and says that he's probably as strong as "those Saiyans" aka Goku and Vegeta, and yet in the interview with Toriyama, I've seen translations both that Orange Piccolo "rivals Goku and co" and that he's "on par with Goku and Vegeta" which basically have the same meaning.

There will always be out-of-universe elements at play when analyzing statements made out of universe.

The comparison Piccolo makes in the film comes from a script that was written long before Goku and Vegeta's current power-ups in the series, and isn't the only thing that would point to the Ultimate forms and the Gammas being roughly in the SSB range. However, the comparison Toriyama makes is distinctly outside of the film's context — it's from recent ancillary material made to celebrate the movie's sales, so it's probably coming from the Toriyama that actively worked on the Granolah arc and was in charge of approving forms like Ultra Ego, at-will Ultra Instinct, etc.

It's a little messy, but if you look at the time those comparisons were drawn, it all lines up. Ultimate Piccolo/Gohan and the Gammas are around the same level, while Orange Piccolo is a good tier higher and closer to Goku and Vegeta's current forms.

Wait so your suggestion is that Blue Goku/Vegeta~Gamma 1/Gamma 2<Orange Piccolo, and Orange Piccolo~True UI Goku~Ultra Ego Vegeta?

[Mr Baggins]

Wait so your suggestion is that Blue Goku/Vegeta~Gamma 1/Gamma 2<Orange Piccolo, and Orange Piccolo~True UI Goku~Ultra Ego Vegeta?

I'm saying that's (probably) Toriyama's suggestion, based on when he compared them. I don't know if I'd put Orange Piccolo exactly on par with UI/UE, but there's no particular issue with him being close enough to those forms to fit in that general range.

Orange Piccolo is magnitudes beyond Gamma 2's scope, and the Gammas are at least higher Blue tier fighters. I think he'd absolutely give Ultra Ego Vegeta some difficulty in a one-on-one fight.