SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 11:09 am
anubisj wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:52 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 16, 2021 5:58 am
Baby wasn't even a Tuffle when you think about it, he was just a piece of scrap and a rehash of Cell and that Z movie villain. Baby is as much a Tuffle as Cell is a member of Frieza's Race.
Granolah also seems to be an actual nuanced/three-dimensional villain, which Baby obviously wasn't. In the past I saw a few people claim that Baby was "nuanced" and "complex", and I wonder if people who claim that even watched GT, because throughout the entire run of GT, not once was Baby shown in a sympathetic light
So Yeah, I'm expecting a very different (and better) kind of villain and arc. After all, I'd expect no less from Toriyama's genius.
Oh boy, sorry but I can't resist commenting this.
Baby was not a tuffle per se, but rather, a biological creation with tuffle DNA. Cell was a bioandroid made of multiple DNA from multiple species.
Which is my point.
You don't consider Cell a Saiyan or a member of Frieza's Race just because he has the cells of Goku, Vegeta, Frieza, or King Cold.
Likewise, Baby isn't actually a Tuffle just because he has the DNA of the Tuffle king.
Granolah is different. He is not a mechanical creation, he is an actual surviving member in flesh of an extinct race. That alone already makes him vastly different from Baby.
And I don't even know who you are referring to as "that z movie villain", but, off the top of my head, I don't remember any z movie villain resembling Baby, either in goals, abilities, or design. Not sure how you came to that conclusion
Hatchiyack, the final villain of the movie Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans, is literally a machine created by a Tuffle scientist to get revenge on the Saiyans.
That's why I always laugh when some people claim that the "Baby arc was so original", because Baby is literally a rehash of Hatchiyack.
Also, if by three-dimensional you mean a villain that the audience can relate to, as in "he has his reasons, he's not cruel for the sake of it", well, we had that with Jiren, a bit with Zamasu, Beerus also a bit. In fact, Super is really fond of this concept. You see, a villain doesn't need to be shown in a sympathetic light, for him to be complex.
That's exactly what I mean. Granolah is clearly being set up as a three-dimensional, sympathetic character, that with all the nightmares he has of that fateful day his species was exterminated by the Saiyans. That makes him feel human and relatable, unlike those two Tuffle machines I mentioned.
He reminds me of Future Trunks somewhat, who also had PTSD after the Androids and Zamasu ravaged his homeworld. It wouldn't surprise me if Granolah isn't even a fully-fledged villain, or is a villain who will redeem himself in the future, by defeating his trauma.
And, obviously, but this goes without saying, Granolah isn't a Tuffle but a Cereal. Different species.
I get your point. He was not born from a tuffle mother, so from a genetic point of view he's not a tuffle. However, one could argue that race can mean different things, especially when there's high-tech involved. (Warning: We are approaching a complicated matter, transcending dragon ball for sure, but I'll go ahead).
I'll ask you some questions. For example, what would you call dr wheelo? He is a human brain, encapsulated in metal. Is he human, or android? A-17 is an android, sure, but he was once a human, now cybernetically enhanced. What does being an android even mean? Is it a separate race? According to your point of view, it should be considered that. But what about a human with a robotic eye? As in, when would you draw the line between a cybernetically enhanced human, and a biologically enhanced android?
The way I see it, the mind, soul, conscience or whatever you want to call it, also has part to play when deciding these things. In the case of Baby, he has the tuffle king DNA, which can be interpreted in different ways. He does act as if he was the tuffle king, but he could just be "programmed" to do that. I personally like to think that most of his DNA actually comes from a tuffle woman, purely because I like the idea, but that's just my headcanon.
The fact remains, though, that he has a bilogical connection with tuffles, maybe with one being particularly prominent in his personality, maybe with several being equally prominent. He's called a Machine Mutant, but we don't even know if he is machine at all, or a completely organic being.
So, based on what I've said, I still maintain that Baby could be interpreted as a tuffle, and I think, from the messages I've read, that nobody is questioning that Baby was not born from a tuffle mother.
As for Cell, he had cells from plenty of races, so I could consider him a member of any of those races, in a way. I could also consider him(or her, or it?¿?¿) a separate race based on DNA from multiple other races. Or maybe a bioandroid of sorts, an artificial lifeform or a living and breathing robot. In the end, all of those could be true, depending on how you look at it.
As for Hatchiyack, I must admit, I didn't remember him (though I'll say that he didn't technically appeared in a movie, but rather, in an ova). I agree that the premise is similar to Baby's, which came afterwards. However, the whole tuffle getting revenge concept is so great, I would not have allowed it to die with Hatchiyack. I loved that the writers decided to "revive" that idea for a full-fledged saga, giving it the time and care that it deserves. More importantly to what we are discussing, Baby is different from Hatchiyack in a lot of different ways, from design to abilities, to personality, and that also holds true when comparing both of their stories.
. Toei is better at making Toriyama's characters entertaining then Toyotarou, unless Toriyama is REALLY hands on with the characters and don't let Toyotarou touch anything except the panels that he has to draw.
