Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

This plot point also was abandoned as Goku needs to transform to SSG to access its power now. Toriyama envisioned those two plot points respectively for DBZ Battle of Gods and DBZ Ressurrection of Freeza, which carried on in their anime adaptations, but the return of SSG to the table probably required him to revise the power structure in the DBS movie #1.

By the way, speaking of Kyabe’s apparent equivalence to Vegeta in the same forms. If Caulifla is much stronger than Kyabe, wouldn’t that make her much stronger than Vegeta as well? Wouldn’t that make her stronger than Goku?

BoGs ended with Goku tapping into SSJG again to counter Beerus’ blast, so that certainly isn’t a plot point there. The RoF movie kinda pushes for SSJB being the only form, but nothing is ever made explicit in the movie nor the anime. Goku and Vegeta don’t even learn how to use God Ki in the anime until they unlock SSJB, and the description of the form implies SSJG is still in the mix. The Universe 6 Saga was already being written as the Golden Freeza Saga was being done, so any contradictory mechanics on how the forms work could’ve been bridged in the anime if there was any.

Goku and Vegeta had been going through real tough battles with Black and Zamasu in the future, so understandably they’d have powered up more than their U6 counterparts. You can see this in both mediums as Black is left in the dust by the later half of the saga and Goku and Vegeta put up resistance to Merged Zamasu’s might as AT’s drafts would note. Cabba also suggested Caulifla was only a little bit stronger than her, though given how she kicked his ass in the manga that might have been a understatement.

I was talking about Goku’s Super Saiyan form absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God in Battle of Gods. There is a slight difference in how the Dragon Ball Super anime adapted it, since in the movie his Super Saiyan form has powered down a little bit, but on practical terms Goku doesn’t realize he has lost the God form because the power loss is almost unnoticeable. And going by Toriyama’s own words, “Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God's power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God.” This is a plot point that Toriyama didn’t carry on in his later works, judging by how he made Goku and Vegeta transform into Super Saiyan God against Broly.

Super Saiyan Blue’s description also is word by word the same in the movie and in Dragon Ball Super: “A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”. Well, the whole "keep the energy inside" exercise is related to the power of Super Saiyan God, which they got a taste of in base in Episode 20. Super Saiyan Blue is basically the combination of that exercise with the Super Saiyan transformation. If this was changed for the anime adaptation, then Goku's description for it in Episode 25 wouldn't have mirrored what we already knew about it, so that's simply what the plot point is. The part of the description that didn’t carry on (except in the Copy Vegeta incident) was “Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God”, as Goku and Vegeta don’t use it in base in their multiverse travels, but the part that it is a Super Saiyan form still remains (and they added stamina drain to not make it too broken in a tournament where god-level fighters are rare).

About the last part of your post, indeed you are right. They got a fair share of battles since they fought Universe #6. Goku managed to tie with Hit using Super Saiyan Blue, despite admitting loss even when he used 10-fold Blue Kaioken in their first fight. Goku doesn’t necessarily surpassed that threshold, but he must at least powered-up to a point Hit’s time-skip wouldn’t work.

[QuakingStar]

Vegeta was holding back the whole time, to the point that a punch to the forehead did nothing, and Vegeta smirked. Cabba was never once a match for him in any way. Goku did the same shit basically with Caulifla and Kale, with just his own SS2, vs LSS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla he was fighting them both at the same time and overpowering them at various points despite them trying hard to beat him so they can throw him out. Goku and Vegeta did not go all out on any of those three on purpose, they were never actually anywhere near his power.

Cabba was definitely not holding back at all. While Vegeta on the other hand was SMILING with zero damage done to him.

https://youtu.be/hbCj9mxoTjo?t=445

I don't know how else I can explain this. SS Vegeta completely trashed base Cabba so Cabba could never use his full power as a Super Saiyan because of the damage SS Vegeta did to him prior to transforming.

Vegeta and Cabba are equals as said by Vegeta himself.

Nah Vegeta was bullshitting Cabba and was acting. Just like Beerus was bullshitting and acting when he fought SS2 Vegeta and SSG Goku. Vegeta was already set on testing Cabba and then after testing him decided to train him mid battle.

[ZombieVito]

Nah Vegeta was bullshitting Cabba and was acting. Just like Beerus was bullshitting and acting when he fought SS2 Vegeta and SSG Goku. Vegeta was already set on testing Cabba and then after testing him decided to train him mid battle.

I guess Vegeta also learned a new technique while Goku learned Kaioken Blue.

Mind reader.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I always figured that Super Saiyan Cabba had only just experienced this power for the first time and fought with rage for the first few moments, but quickly lost control of this energy, especially with his battle damage beforehand, and inadvertently gassed out while Super Saiyan Vegeta was experienced with controlling this power and was quite healthy beforehand.

[Koitsukai]

After seeing Vegeta's SS2 surpass SS3 Goku even though their base forms were pretty much the same, I have no issues with Vegeta being way stronger as a SS than a brand new SS, while being even in base.

[Thani]

After seeing Vegeta's SS2 surpass SS3 Goku even though their base forms were pretty much the same, I have no issues with Vegeta being way stronger as a SS than a brand new SS, while being even in base.

That's a fair point. No reason why the SS forms themselves can't get honed and more formidable. Wasn't that the whole point of the grades?

[ZombieVito]

I always figured that Super Saiyan Cabba had only just experienced this power for the first time and fought with rage for the first few moments, but quickly lost control of this energy, especially with his battle damage beforehand, and inadvertently gassed out while Super Saiyan Vegeta was experienced with controlling this power and was quite healthy beforehand.

This too. The Z fighters have mastered Super Saiyan (grade 4) and don't waste energy with it. Cabba would still be in grade 1 so he should waste energy faster.

[QuakingStar]

and even if Vegeta was using the normal SS, he would still be stronger than Cabba. Vegeta was testing Cabba, then training Cabba.

[ZombieVito]

Vegeta literally has no reason to test Cabba prior to finding out he couldn't turn Super Saiyan.

[Hugo Boss]

After seeing Vegeta's SS2 surpass SS3 Goku even though their base forms were pretty much the same, I have no issues with Vegeta being way stronger as a SS than a brand new SS, while being even in base.

That's a fair point. No reason why the SS forms themselves can't get honed and more formidable. Wasn't that the whole point of the grades?

Furious SS2 Vegeta seems more like an upgraded version of SS2 than a permanent boost to the form that carries on to the others. I would say it was Vegeta’s way of surpassing SS2, rather than undergoing the same route of Goku with SS3. Having said this, I see no reason why Vegeta would work on honing regular SS if he has a stronger form to improve (at least with the current standards of Super Saiyan Blue not replacing regular Super Saiyan in the evolution charts).

The manga also treats Trunks’ enhanced SS2 form as a direct power-up of SS2, as he and Goku were almost even in that form. It’s not clear if Vegeta used that form against Goku Black, but subtext heavily implies this was the case as well.

[Goku9001]

I always figured that Super Saiyan Cabba had only just experienced this power for the first time and fought with rage for the first few moments, but quickly lost control of this energy, especially with his battle damage beforehand, and inadvertently gassed out while Super Saiyan Vegeta was experienced with controlling this power and was quite healthy beforehand.

This too. The Z fighters have mastered Super Saiyan (grade 4) and don't waste energy with it. Cabba would still be in grade 1 so he should waste energy faster.

This is what I figured. Base Vegeta and Base Cabba were matched in power which was shown during the beam struggle but Cabba was a less refined fighter who made many reckless movements and exhausted himself too quickly. In contrast, Vegeta made calculated moves such as feigning his first kick on Cabba. The anime seems to emphasize the importance of skill in battles much more than Z or the Super manga does and this is likely the case here.

Even if you want to argue that SSJ Vegeta was stronger since he "tanked" Cabba's punch, keep in mind that Vegeta explicitly braced himself for the attack. I don't think it's any different than what Goku did against Grandpa Gohan's kick except Vegeta would be capable of fortifying his body with ki if necessary.

[ZombieVito]

I always figured that Super Saiyan Cabba had only just experienced this power for the first time and fought with rage for the first few moments, but quickly lost control of this energy, especially with his battle damage beforehand, and inadvertently gassed out while Super Saiyan Vegeta was experienced with controlling this power and was quite healthy beforehand.

This too. The Z fighters have mastered Super Saiyan (grade 4) and don't waste energy with it. Cabba would still be in grade 1 so he should waste energy faster.

This is what I figured. Base Vegeta and Base Cabba were matched in power which was shown during the beam struggle but Cabba was a less refined fighter who made many reckless movements and exhausted himself too quickly. In contrast, Vegeta made calculated moves such as feigning his first kick on Cabba. The anime seems to emphasize the importance of skill in battles much more than Z or the Super manga does and this is likely the case here.

Even if you want to argue that SSJ Vegeta was stronger since he "tanked" Cabba's punch, keep in mind that Vegeta explicitly braced himself for the attack. I don't think it's any different than what Goku did against Grandpa Gohan's kick except Vegeta would be capable of fortifying his body with ki if necessary.

Oh wow, I have completely forgotten Kid Goku did that against Gohan. That works too.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Super Saiyan Blue’s description also is word by word the same in the movie and in Dragon Ball Super: “A Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan”.

This bit now got me. I thought the statement was something like "A Super Saiyan God with the power of a Super Saiyan" or something like that, but both Herms and the subtitles I got have it the way you said it.

But I still stand that there's no blatant inconsistence within the show at least. In the context of the movie this would be taken as "Goku is a Super Saiyan God in base and he's going Super Saiyan on top of it", but in retrospect it means "Super Saiyan Blue is the first time Goku surpasses the power of Super Saiyan God" regardless of how strong his base form is, since "SSJG" and "power of SSJG" are supposed to mean the same thing now that we know Goku can still go SSJG. So it's more a retcon on the concept/interpretation than on the power hierarchy.

Interestingly, AT did say "there's no need to" instead of saying Goku could no longer transform. The fact that SSJ Goku in the end of his fight with Beerus isn't a SSJB, even though he's a SSJ with the power of SSJG...

[QuakingStar]

You can try to explain it how you want, jumping through hoops to make it work. But Vegeta was clearly far stronger than Cabba and was smirking, didn't feel threatened at all. He was testing and then training Cabba hence him telling Cabba to go SS when he was done testing his base form. Cabba was not, and is not anywhere near Vegeta's level.

[Hugo Boss]

But I still stand that there's no blatant inconsistence within the show at least. In the context of the movie this would be taken as "Goku is a Super Saiyan God in base and he's going Super Saiyan on top of it", but in retrospect it means "Super Saiyan Blue is the first time Goku surpasses the power of Super Saiyan God" regardless of how strong his base form is, since "SSJG" and "power of SSJG" are supposed to mean the same thing now that we know Goku can still go SSJG. So it's more a retcon on the concept/interpretation than on the power hierarchy.

I think you got the point of the description. Goku had to become that much stronger to unlock that new level, since Freeza could tell just by looking at it that it wasn’t simply any Super Saiyan. Once Goku reached the power of SSG in his base form, all he needed to do is use SS (after all Whis was pretty clear on not allowing them to use SS on their training sessions). And the result of that training is a Super Saiyan with blue hair and aura.

It causes confusion in retrospect, because the “Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God” bit is in alignment with Toriyama’s intent of not bringing SSG back. The moment SSG returns you have to go with “a Super Saiyan that surpass Super Saiyan God” interpretation, which ignores the original intent (that Goku had become as strong as SSG in base).

Interestingly, AT did say "there's no need to" instead of saying Goku could no longer transform. The fact that SSJ Goku in the end of his fight with Beerus isn't a SSJB, even though he's a SSJ with the power of SSJG...

Toriyama said “there is no need to” because in practice transforming into SSG wouldn’t power him up beyond SS. And going by SSGSS description, his hair and aura would only become blue if Goku already had SSG’s power in his base form. He could only match SSG’s power with SS against Beerus, whereas against Freeza he met the condition of having SSG’s power in his base form.

[SSJgogeto]

My humble opinion (english isn't my first language, so please forgive me for any possible grammatical errors):

1 - I think there's more factors than just strength in the Potara fusions. "Compatibility" and maybe "hidden potencial" are good ones, IMHO. If Kale's potencial is as great as Broly's, then Kefla's strength in the anime would make sense.

2 - I don't think Gogeta is really that strong in his base form. In the same movie we saw Goku in his base form fighting with Ikari Broly; moreover, when Gogeta went to offensive, he used Chou Super Saiyan instead of just staying in his base form.

3 - I highlighted Chou Super Saiyan because I'm one of a few who believes this form is real. The problem is determine exactly what is Chou Super Saiyan. I saw Toriyama's quote about how Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are powered-up variations of Super Saiyan, and I formulate a theory after talking with some friends.

I probably said something like this in this forum some time ago: IMO Chou Super Saiyan is more or less like Gohan's Ultimate form, a transformation that allows the user to access most (if not all) of his powers without having to resort to transformations like Super Saiyan 2, 3 or something higher. Also, I think Super Saiyan Blue/Rosé are essentially Chou Super Saiyan + Godly ki, so I don't think Goku, Vegeta and any other will use "Blue 2" or something because they don't need that.

To finish, I believe this transformation was used in the anime for a while (that's why Vegeta said to Cabba that they are equals in their base forms, and that's why "Super Saiyan" Future Trunks looks so strong after his train with Vegeta), but as you know the anime is a little, let's say, "confuse" sometimes so they kinda forgot about it. In the movies, however, this problem didn't happen, and Goku, Vegeta and Gogeta used Chou Super Saiyan instead of average Super Saiyan. That's why the power gap between "Super Saiyan" and SS God seems smaller – less than 10 times if we take Broly in to consideration.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Attaching these different unquantified versions of Super Saiyan really just complicates matters when the mediums are generally much simpler about it.

Gogeta uses Super Saiyan, it's just him using Super Saiyan on top of his base form; Ikari Broly and SSB Goku are fighting evenly, Broly turning Super Saiyan on top of that matches up with Super Saiyan Gogeta; and more stuff like this.

[Goku9001]

You can try to explain it how you want, jumping through hoops to make it work. But Vegeta was clearly far stronger than Cabba and was smirking, didn't feel threatened at all. He was testing and then training Cabba hence him telling Cabba to go SS when he was done testing his base form. Cabba was not, and is not anywhere near Vegeta's level.

There's no reason why Vegeta couldn't have assessed that their base forms were equal while still testing him. Both are not mutually exclusive.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In the anime Vegeta says to himself that Cabba is his equal.

Spoiler:

I have no idea how one can get around this. It’s like, stated and shown. As easy as it gets. Vegeta tanked Cabba because he was a 4th Grade Super Saiyan, so naturally he’s stronger than Grade 1 Cabba. That’s like saying Goku and Majin Vegeta aren’t equals because SSJ3 Goku could tank SSJ2 Vegeta.

[Grimlock]

Do we know if regular Super Saiyan has a different multiplier from Super Saiyan Full Power/Grade 4?