Well... I still disagree. No one said he couldn't do it in the manga, so why should we need an explanation for doing it?Saiga wrote:@DBZGTKOSDH Ah, my mistake. Though, my argument still applies. The Super Saiyan God thing wasn't explained, he just sort of... does it, when he wasn't using it before. It's easy to rationalize, but it's still something that requires rationalisation.
Your inside "fanon" things
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Your inside "fanon" things
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
A plot-hole is something that directly contradicts something else that was previously stated. This is not the case at all, hence it is not a plot-hole, no matter how hard you want it to be.
As we've said to you many times already, no one ever said officially that Gohan could not turn Super Saiyan anymore. Thinking and insisting that he can't is the true fan-wanking here.
He turns Super Saiyan in Battle of the Gods, which Toriyama was involved with, clearly showing that they are branching states.
As for the reason he used it then and GT, I'll give you the simplest reason I can find: because he fucking felt like it.
It is not a plot-hole. Unless your inside fanon is that this is a plot-hole, in that case carry on.
As we've said to you many times already, no one ever said officially that Gohan could not turn Super Saiyan anymore. Thinking and insisting that he can't is the true fan-wanking here.
He turns Super Saiyan in Battle of the Gods, which Toriyama was involved with, clearly showing that they are branching states.
As for the reason he used it then and GT, I'll give you the simplest reason I can find: because he fucking felt like it.
It is not a plot-hole. Unless your inside fanon is that this is a plot-hole, in that case carry on.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
That's far too narrow a definition of a plothole. A case where something has changed without explanation is also a plothole.DNA wrote:A plot-hole is something that directly contradicts something else that was previously stated. This is not the case at all, hence it is not a plot-hole, no matter how hard you want it to be.
I'm not even saying he can't. I'm saying that the difference between how it is handled is inconsistent, and there is no explanation given for the difference there.As we've said to you many times already, no one ever said officially that Gohan could not turn Super Saiyan anymore. Thinking and insisting that he can't is the true fan-wanking here.
It doesn't clearly show anything. He turns Super Saiyan for one scene, and it isn't touched up on at all. Nothing implies that the states are branching.He turns Super Saiyan in Battle of the Gods, which Toriyama was involved with, clearly showing that they are branching states.
That is an inadequate explanation because it doesn't answer the difference between them. It's nothing more than a hand-wave.As for the reason he used it then and GT, I'll give you the simplest reason I can find: because he fucking felt like it.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Your inside "fanon" things
So, Super Saiyan Gohan is actually not a plot-hole, even in GT.Plot Hole wrote:In a piece of fiction, a Plot Hole is a completely implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story. Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
A Plot Hole is NOT a simple omission of information or unanswered question. These can only be considered a Plot Hole if said omission has no plausible explanation AND is essential information to the overall story's outcome.
Plot Hole: Something that goes against logic or the previous events in the fiction.
Not a Plot Hole: A small unexplained event in the story.
ACTUAL Plot Hole: In Batman Begins a microwave emitter is used to vaporize the water in Gotham to release a psychedelic drug that the water has been laced with. However, the microwaves would in all actuality caused all of the water molecules in every human body to boil and kill everyone very painfully. But this does not happen in the movie.
NOT a Plot Hole: In The Dark Knight Rises, not explaining how Bruce Wayne manages to get back onto the Island of Gotham after it has been cut off from the rest of the world.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
Urban Dictionary is about a reliable a source as the Dragon Ball Wiki is. It is not the be-all-and-end-all of definitions. Also, that paragraph even contradicts itself, as "events happening for no apparent reason" fall more under "simple omission of information or unanswered question" which was just said not to be a plothole.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:So, Super Saiyan Gohan is actually not a plot-hole.Plot Hole wrote:In a piece of fiction, a Plot Hole is a completely implausible occurrence or series of events that contradicts logic or previously established events in the story. Includes things such as unlikely behaviour or actions of characters, illogical or impossible events, events happening for no apparent reason, or statements/events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.
A Plot Hole is NOT a simple omission of information or unanswered question. These can only be considered a Plot Hole if said omission has no plausible explanation AND is essential information to the overall story's outcome.
Plot Hole: Something that goes against logic or the previous events in the fiction.
Not a Plot Hole: A small unexplained event in the story.
ACTUAL Plot Hole: In Batman Begins a microwave emitter is used to vaporize the water in Gotham to release a psychedelic drug that the water has been laced with. However, the microwaves would in all actuality caused all of the water molecules in every human body to boil and kill everyone very painfully. But this does not happen in the movie.
NOT a Plot Hole: In The Dark Knight Rises, not explaining how Bruce Wayne manages to get back onto the Island of Gotham after it has been cut off from the rest of the world.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
Where's your source buddy? If you are so certain that this is a plot-hole, then by all means show us your source for it.Saiga wrote:Urban Dictionary is about a reliable a source as the Dragon Ball Wiki is. It is not the be-all-and-end-all of definitions. Also, that paragraph even contradicts itself, as "events happening for no apparent reason" fall more under "simple omission of information or unanswered question" which was just said not to be a plothole.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Your inside "fanon" things
Found another source:
"Note that a Plot Hole is inherently a contradiction: A Plot element that is merely left unexplained is not a Plot Hole unless its occurrence is impossible according to the setting's rules."
Does "plot-hole" have an "official" definition?
"Note that a Plot Hole is inherently a contradiction: A Plot element that is merely left unexplained is not a Plot Hole unless its occurrence is impossible according to the setting's rules."
Does "plot-hole" have an "official" definition?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/open ... othole.htm
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotHole
http://www.macmillandictionary.com/open ... othole.htm
Are you satisfied yet?While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
How about a literary journal? Plotholes don't have any dictionary definitions that I can find, and so the interpretation of such is based on common usage, as this explains, the common usage of plot holes refer to a much broader definiton than just "contradicting a direct statement".DNA wrote:Where's your source buddy? If you are so certain that this is a plot-hole, then by all means show us your source for it.Saiga wrote:Urban Dictionary is about a reliable a source as the Dragon Ball Wiki is. It is not the be-all-and-end-all of definitions. Also, that paragraph even contradicts itself, as "events happening for no apparent reason" fall more under "simple omission of information or unanswered question" which was just said not to be a plothole.
Tv Tropes is completely inconsistent on their definition of a plothole, and also an unreliable source to begin with, and that Wikipedia article is unsourced.
The idea that the plot hole must be crucial to the plot to count is one I have not seen outside of these examples, which don't have any citation for it.
Last edited by Saiga on Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: Your inside "fanon" things
But there is not any statement that says "Gohan can't loose his Ultimate state", or "Gohan can't use Super Saiyan on top of his Ultimate state through training", or whatever else you can think to explain the GT Gohan problem.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
But there doesn't need to be for it to be a plothole. There needs to be an explanation of the inconsistency for it not to be a plothole in the first place.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But there is not any statement that says "Gohan can't loose his Ultimate state", or "Gohan can't use Super Saiyan on top of his Ultimate state through training", or whatever else you can think to explain the GT Gohan problem.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
From your own source, Saiga.While in CPTs authors play god to ensure a proper narrative arc, in plot holes they ignore or fail to notice logical inconsistencies that should normally prevent the progression of the plot toward its outcome.
Last edited by DNA on Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
Which goes on to use an example of a minor plothole later on.DNA wrote:From your own source Saiga.While in CPTs authors play god to ensure a proper narrative arc, in plot holes they ignore or fail to notice logical inconsistencies that should normally prevent the progression of the plot toward its outcome.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
Still, that is the basic definition of a plot-hole, shared by all the sources we have shown you, including yours. You can go on and on in circles but the end result is the same. A plot-hole is something that should have prevented the plot to progress but didn't. Gohan turning Super Saiyan does not fall into that definition in any way, shape or form, no matter how hard you try to bend it.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
It's not shared by mine, because mine goes on to point out minor plotholes that are still plot holes. As I've pointed out, none of the other sources have citations, and are all freely editable and unreliable.DNA wrote:Still, that is the basic definition of a plot-hole, shared by all the sources we have shown you, including yours. You can go on and on in circles but the end result is the same. A plot-hole is something that should have prevented the plot to progress but didn't. Gohan turning Super Saiyan does not fall into that definition in any way, shape or form, no matter how hard you try to bend it.
This "must be crucial to the plot" is not part of the basic definition or common usage of a plot hole. It is an additional rule that from the wording seems as if it was brought forward to distinguish plot holes from unexplained events that don't cause inconsistencies - such as the Gotham Island example used by Urban Dictionary.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
It is, as stated by your own source. I can't even find the meaning you were stating. Just because you disagree, doesn't invalidate every single source. Again, it seems your personal "fanon" is that this constitutes a plot-hole. We have been showing that you are wrong and why you are wrong for nearly two hours now but you seem to have the need to be right no matter what. So I'll just leave you with that and with a clear conscience that you are wrong and simply can't admit it.Saiga wrote:It's not shared by mine, because mine goes on to point out minor plotholes that are still plot holes. As I've pointed out, none of the other sources have citations, and are all freely editable and unreliable.
This "must be crucial to the plot" is not part of the basic definition or common usage of a plot hole. It is an additional rule that from the wording seems as if it was brought forward to distinguish plot holes from unexplained events that don't cause inconsistencies - such as the Gotham Island example used by Urban Dictionary.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
The Citizen Kane example given under the plothole section notes that the plothole of Kane dying alone has no impact on the plot, and is something that could have easily been fixed - but it's a plothole.DNA wrote: It is, as stated by your own source. I can't even find the meaning you were stating. Just because you disagree, doesn't invalidate every single source. Again, it seems your personal "fanon" is that this constitutes a plot-hole. We have been showing that you are wrong and why you are wrong for nearly two hours now but you seem to have the need to be right no matter what. So I'll just leave you with that and with a clear conscience that you are wrong and simply can't admit it.
There's no need for you to be acting so smug, either. You're basing your whole point on an idea without citation. To act that you're objectively right because of it is narrow-minded.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
Saiga wrote:The Citizen Kane example given under the plothole section notes that the plothole of Kane dying alone has no impact on the plot, and is something that could have easily been fixed - but it's a plothole.
There's no need for you to be acting so smug, either. You're basing your whole point on an idea without citation. To act that you're objectively right because of it is narrow-minded.
A group of reporters are trying to find what Rosebud means even though logically no one should have been able to hear it. Hence the plot should not have been able to progress, but still does. Again, you are wrong.In Orson Welles’ Citizen Kane, a group of reporters is trying to discover the meaning of Kane’s dying words “Rosebud.” However, Kane dies alone.
And again, I've been giving you sources and citations.
So once again, you are still wrong and still going around in circles trying to prove you are right.
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
This is what I'm talking about. It's two plot holes with Citizen Kane, one of which implicates the plot.Moreover, of the two incompatible events that create the hole, only one—uttering “Rosebud” as a final word—implicates the future development of the story; the fact that Kane died alone, a comment on his life and character, has a symbolic rather than a causal function and it would be easier to delete without damaging the logical integrity of the plot.
And giving me sources is no good when those sources are themselves unsourced.
Even if you're right (which wouldn't be objective like you believe), then you know what that changes? Next to nothing. All that changes is that instead of saying "plothole" I should just say "inconsistency".
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Re: Your inside "fanon" things
No, it states that there are two events that create a plot-hole. And it still goes against what you believe.Saiga wrote:This is what I'm talking about. It's two plot holes with Citizen Kane, one of which implicates the plot.
I've been using your own source.Saiga wrote:And giving me sources is no good when those sources are themselves unsourced.
So now you are twisting things to be able to be "kinda right" instead of flat-out wrong. Why can't you simply admit that you were wrong?Saiga wrote:Even if you're right (which wouldn't be objective like you believe), then you know what that changes? Next to nothing. All that changes is that instead of saying "plothole" I should just say "inconsistency".
It's barely inconsistent. It can be easily explained like I told you, plot-holes cannot be explained, your own source says that.
Gohan is able to transform into Super Saiyan in GT, in Battle of the Gods he is shown to be able to transform despite the fact that he can also tap into the 'Ultimate' state. Now the reason for why did he choose to transform into Super Saiyan in GT is unexplained, this does not create any conflict, inconsistency of plot-hole, at best it shows a poor choice, but like I've shown you, there can be many explanations for why did he transform into Super Saiyan.
Like I've said before, no matter how much you try to twist words and citations, Gohan transforming into Super Saiyan in GT is not a plot-hole.